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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/28/2008 9:38:51 AM   
catize


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I see quite a lot of things that I believe to be wrong.  I will speak and fight against it because my conscience requires it.  But I temper that with the knowledge that it is a waste of time to try to ‘’help” someone who doesn’t wish to be helped.  And here on the internet, I may be greatly disturbed by some people but I am realistic enough that I doubt my words have any real impact or will create change in someone else’s life..    

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/28/2008 10:10:22 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

 , I may be greatly disturbed by some people but I am realistic enough that I doubt my words have any real impact or will create change in someone else’s life..    


sometimes the person will not be willing to listen..... but there are others that have very similiar issues and are willing to listen... they just haven't spoken out yet.  A few words might just help them even though you don't know they are listening.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/28/2008 10:19:32 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Choosing is not consent.  Its simply choosing.



true......... but  consent is choosing! 


And also, consent is not choosing.
But choosing or not choosing is not consent.  Not by any stretch of the imagination.


quote:

but even though one chooses or consents to a given action doesn't make in right or wrong for that matter for the well-being on oneself and others.  However, as individuals we have our own personal beliefs and values and we will make choices of action that others will disagree with or not consent to.  Sometimes those things are rather bad for the person and others... sometimes it is exactly what needs to be done.  I am not promoting a particular belief or idea over another.. I am however stating what I see is a reality that unless people speak out and fight against what they see as injustice or moral wrong or anything for that matter will make genocide and all the way down to simple relationship abuse becomes much easier for those that make those choices.  I shutter to think what would happen to all the women that are and have been in abusive relationships if there wasn't people trying to stop such activity.  I shutter to think what would happen if job harassment was allowed to occur unabaited.  I shutter to think what would happen if we allow school bullying.  I shutter to think if I allow my girls to just do as they want and not exercise the authority that is fundament to our relationship.

As I said before, I do not believe there is such a thing as right or wrong across the board.  There are too many facets to consider.  Too many splits.  Too many differing morals, ethics, religion, spiritual, eccentricites and ethnic sections of life.  Your own lifestyle choice of being poly, will be questioned and defied by many as'wrong' - across the board.  I do not believe this is so. But I also do not believe it to be right across the board either.  Nor do I see it as consensual - but a choice.
 
It's funny.  Darcy bought me a present this weekend which we watched this morning.  He had never seen it and did not even know the plot.  A DVD.  It is a favourite of mine - I would probably go so far as to say it is my favourite film of all time and that for me - is a huge step to realise.  So yeah, some people are going, oh god a film -  even a musical?  Yet, I love it on so many levels.  On a master/slave level.  On a dominant/submissive level.  On a political level.  On a human being level.  Darcy allowed me this wonderful present and I would urge anyone to go out and buy it or hire it themselves.  Because it speaks so much on the fundemental differences of people and that consent is hardly a rational concept.  It speaks of understanding, even when there is no agreement and that to second guess is fool hardy and ill informed. So yeah my advice to anyone is, go watch 'The King and I'.
 
I do not believe we will ever agree on this issue KoM, but it's all cool.  I am comfortable in my position because I, and I alone, choose to be so.
 
the.dark.

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/28/2008 10:59:21 AM   
catize


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

 , I may be greatly disturbed by some people but I am realistic enough that I doubt my words have any real impact or will create change in someone else’s life..    


sometimes the person will not be willing to listen..... but there are others that have very similiar issues and are willing to listen... they just haven't spoken out yet.  A few words might just help them even though you don't know they are listening.


 
Good point, KoM, and sometimes speaking out simply makes me feel better whether it impacts anyone else or not!  


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/28/2008 12:49:55 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

sometimes the person will not be willing to listen..... but there are others that have very similiar issues and are willing to listen... they just haven't spoken out yet.  A few words might just help them even though you don't know they are listening.


Good point, KoM, and sometimes speaking out simply makes me feel better whether it impacts anyone else or not!



I don't have a problem speaking up about things that I see that are uncomfortable for me or that I have ethical issues with -- except that I feel that it is imperative to put my comments in the perspective of my own experience, and be -clear- that I am offering an opinion about what would be acceptable to -me-, in my own home and in my own situations/relationships, while recognizing that someone else might find those things acceptable for them. The only time that I will step away from this is when I am discussing the acts of a government or head of state against populations under hir tacit protection, and -that- is because I believe that a government is empowered to protect its people, without regard to race/creed/financial status/age/gender/orientation, not judge what their constituents do in the privacy of their own homes or believe in their own hearts, philosophically or spiritually, unless what that person is doing invades another person's body, property, or privacy without that person's "agreement to participate".

I am specifically unhappy with the laws that attempt to regulate my morality, religious beliefs, sexual practices, or physical behaviors (smoking, trans-fats, birth control, marriage, recreational drug/alcohol use, etc.), and feel that this exceeds the bounds established by the Constitution for my goverment's involvement in my personal life.

In terms of the OP, I also believe that I have no right to judge whether or not someone is involved in a 'healthy' relationship, unless they directly involve me themselves. While I feel perfectly within my rights to state an -opinion-, I do -not- feel that it is my right OR my responsibility to attempt to convince someone that hir relationship is "wrong" (or right, for that matter). I also accept that people come in a full range of expressions of their capacity to need, want, survive, cope, etc., and feel no sense of righteousness or compulsion to censure someone who is honest about hir need to have someone provide a closer structure system for hir survival than another person might either want or need, and -that-, through all of this, has been my point.

Calla Firestorm




< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/28/2008 12:53:38 PM >

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***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/28/2008 7:33:11 PM   
OneMoreWaste


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Last time I checked... a mountain is built not by one big rock...but a multitude of little rocks, pebble and sand.  So much abuse and genocide is rooted in much smaller issues within the very personal relationships that individuals that commit these crimes and action.  What is erroneous is to think that genocide isn't rooted in very small relationships that grows as such likeminded individuals come together.


How did we get back to genocide again? Is this all you guys talk about over in the Master forum?


quote:


I agree.. that you can't make a person leave abuse if they accept it or shall we say consented to abuse.  I also agree that you can't make they believe something is wrong just because I believe it so.  But just because they choose to accept it doesn't make it right either. 


Just remember... There's no hard and fast line between "She shouldn't let him break her bones, she's mentally unstable, no sane person would submit to that, I should get involved" and "She shouldn't let him spank her, she suffers from depression, no woman with healthy self-esteem would take that. I should get involved."


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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/28/2008 7:47:37 PM   
NihilusZero


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Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste

Just remember... There's no hard and fast line between "She shouldn't let him break her bones, she's mentally unstable, no sane person would submit to that, I should get involved" and "She shouldn't let him spank her, she suffers from depression, no woman with healthy self-esteem would take that. I should get involved."


So much gray...


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/2/2008 10:18:27 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		It's been a busy week for me and this is really my first opportunity to sit down and comment on the few things that have caught my eye over the last few days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
"all that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

It troubles me that so many good men have done nothing.   Do I just blindly suggest that they are not good men.  I think that is making it much to simple of answer.  Good men do nothing... the question is why they do nothing.   This is not a simple question to answer, particularly since there is many different answers that are equally right depending on the person and situation.

I find the manner of what prop shares on the boards to be extremely troubling.  I am of the opinion that she is mentally unstable.  However, I have difficultly thinking much of what she shares to be completely truthful if not being outright lies.  there is much of her situation that has not been shared and I believe that those things could very well change my judgement or just validate it but not for the reasons I see at this point.


Thank you KoM. I found your Edmund Burke quote very interesting and it may just lie at the root of my choice to involve myself in the ways that I do.
I grew up in New York City...Brooklyn to be exact. There is a certain detachment from humanity that one learns living in such a place. Mind your own business....don't get involved. I remember a time when I was about 6 years old. My mother had taken me to a friend's to play. We were playing out back in the alleyway when suddenly this huge TomCat attacked my friend's cat. I tried to help and the TomCat attacked me. That cat literally tore me up in a flash. Not just little scratches but deep gouges and bites...at least for my tiny body. In a panic I took off running for home. Home was located in an apartment above a pharmacy on a very busy avenue. There were hundreds of people walking by at all hours of the day. Now here comes this small 6 year old child who is literally covered in blood running down the sidewalk crying. Do you know not one single adult stopped to help...to see if I was ok or if I needed assistance.

We see it all the time, people are taught not to get involved. People can be beaten, even killed in front of us....and we turn away. "I don't want to get involved...it's not my business". "I didn't see nothing". As a 6 year old child trying to understand why no one would help....why no one cared....the event left a mark that lasted far longer than the wounds that were inflicted by the cat.

So I think that sometimes "good men do nothing" because it's something we are taught and conditioned to do. Getting involved opens you up to being impacted by the situation. Getting involved requires much more effort than turning away or ignoring it.

I think that in this lifestyle many carry that conditioning into it. But even more importantly is that ridiculous message we are given when we enter here...that we shouldn't judge....that we should be tolerant....that we must never in particular make a judgment about another's kink or relationship dynamic. About how politically incorrect that would be. Afraid of being judged for judging....or worse yet....not being accepted or shunned by the community. How dare you judge? How dare you involve yourself in someone else's affairs?

Pffffttttt!

quote:

 .the dark.
You cannot make a person leave abuse if they accept it.  You cannot make someone give up drugs unless they want to.  You cannot make anyone believe something is wrong for them, just because it is wrong for you(generic).  You can say,'its not my choice' or 'it's not for me' but to say that it is wrong across the board, to me is wrong.


You are correct here dark...when you are dealing with adults who are in consent and who are capable of making that consent. I know you say that you don't believe in consent...but then further into this you use consent as the qualifier. You can't have it both ways. I do believe in consent...so much that I believe that it is the very thing that seperates us from psychopaths and criminals. We would certainly not hesitate to step into a situation where we were aware of the abuse of a child. Or I should say that most of us would not hesitate. We would do so because we know a child is incapable of understanding and consenting. Well we have to look at some adults in that same light. Adults who are choiceless or who lack the capability of consent. You said that if we remove the concept of community standards as they apply to consent....of safety....and awareness....you are left with people who take responsibility for themselves. Gosh, I wish that were true but unfortunately dark, you know as well as I that there are many people who are incapable of taking responsibility for themselves. Heck, that is exactly what this thread is about.

quote:

.thedark.  
You will never keep away the witch hunters.  All societies have them, even in their own ranks.  So you deal with them by sticking to those ethics and not getting drawn into their behaviour - else you become them and perpetuate the cycle.  You accept them, you may chastise them but you always love them.
 
You teach by example.  You become the living breathing embodiment of your own ethics.


Some may view this as some personal witch hunt with prop being the target. It's not. Prop is simply the only example on these boards to keep stepping up. She comes here time and time and time again talking about her abuse....and she calls it abuse. She talks about her mental illness, her depression, her suicidal ideology...and she even relates how her abusive situation negatively impacts her mental state. When questioned on it further, she rationalizes it, she qualifies it, she minimizes it and backpeddles in various ways. "Honestly, it didn't hurt too bad", "It's only been a couple of times", "It was only one or two ribs that got broken".

Then she further goes on to say that "such is the life of a slave"....and she says it in such a way that says that if you are not willing to tolerate such....or go to such depths....you are obviously "less" or "not real".

Now I look at that and think of how many people have dedicated themselves to educating the vanilla world of the distinctions between wiitwd and abuse. How many years have people been working towards an understanding and acceptance.

Gosh dark, myself I have dedicated a huge portion of my life to helping the victims of such abuse, to supporting them as they heal, to Domestic Violence education and prosecution. To working toward a future where Domestic Violence becomes less and less tolerated.

And here comes prop....or someone like prop....saying that this is exactly what this is about. That it's ok. That it's what a real slave is. And off we go spiraling backward....erasing the efforts and dedication of so many. Even confusing and blurring the lines and setting up some who may not know any better to stumble onto that exact path. I don't have anything against prop personally. Actually, as a woman....as a human being....I have much concern and care for her. But I feel that her words must be balanced by another perspective.....her example should never be the only example that is held up before someone who is new and seeking knowledge about what this is all about.

What does it say about us that we condone this? Even if all we do is stand silent? What will be "OK" next? Shall we start promoting that mental institutions are great places to find your submissive "One"? How about the developmentally disabled or the traumatically brain injured? Where do we go from here? If we don't draw a line somewhere than anything is acceptable. And if we can't agree on where those lines should be very clearly drawn...and refuse to tolerate those who cross those lines....we will never find understanding or acceptance from larger society.

I feel that to turn away, walk away and do nothing would be remiss. It would certainly be in sharp contrast to who I am and I will not compromise myself because I fear being judged by another. I stand up for my own convictions...and sometimes those convictions involve not remaining quiet when I see abuse and injustice. Sometimes it involves doing the unpopular thing in order to reach out and help my fellow man instead of ignoring his bloody cries. I do teach by example and I am the living breathing embodiment of my own ethics.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/2/2008 11:20:58 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hugs and smoochies erin.
I have already discussed why I see consent as null and why I have used it to KoM.  Actually, my discussion with him has resulted in me realising it is conterproductive to use the word consent just because people will understand better if I do.  So I will not be using it again - it is cool to learn something and change it.
 
Im not getting into whether people see props dismissers as 'witchhunters'.  My discussion with Ildaboath wasn't about her but about witch hunts in general.
 
But I do know that when someone makes a judgement about my relationship and tells me I am abused, I dismiss them quite easily.  People are suggesting that people like myself are saying that judgements are WRONG.  None of us said that.  You know me erin, I am big on making judgements - but for oneself.  What I am saying is people can interfere in others relationships all they want.  But it makes them wrong and it defeats the concept of abuse because they begin becoming abusers themselves.  But abusers of kindness - doesn't make it better.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 249
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/2/2008 11:24:02 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

 , I may be greatly disturbed by some people but I am realistic enough that I doubt my words have any real impact or will create change in someone else’s life..    


sometimes the person will not be willing to listen..... but there are others that have very similiar issues and are willing to listen... they just haven't spoken out yet.  A few words might just help them even though you don't know they are listening.


 
Good point, KoM, and sometimes speaking out simply makes me feel better whether it impacts anyone else or not!  



All good points.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/3/2008 10:30:07 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
But I do know that when someone makes a judgement about my relationship and tells me I am abused, I dismiss them quite easily. 

 
Sure, as do I. The difference here though dark is that you and I aren't going to other people and telling them that we are being abused....and then acting all shocked that they see our situations as abusive.
 
quote:

What I am saying is people can interfere in others relationships all they want.  But it makes them wrong and it defeats the concept of abuse because they begin becoming abusers themselves.  But abusers of kindness - doesn't make it better. 


Oh dark you know I love ya....but I can not get my head to make sense of how you are thinking here. Are you saying that you think that the social worker who removes a child from an abusive home is themself an abuser? The domestic violence shelter that provides safe haven? The psychiatrist who commits someone who he feels is a danger to his spouse? The person who calls the police because she hears the neighbor guy is drunk and beating the crap out of his wife yet again?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/3/2008 11:21:25 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin


Oh dark you know I love ya....but I can not get my head to make sense of how you are thinking here. Are you saying that you think that the social worker who removes a child from an abusive home is themself an abuser? The domestic violence shelter that provides safe haven? The psychiatrist who commits someone who he feels is a danger to his spouse? The person who calls the police because she hears the neighbor guy is drunk and beating the crap out of his wife yet again?


I see this as a kind of intentional obfuscation of the subject. I think it's pretty clear that taking a child out of an abusive home is not, in itself, abuse, and the argument is, realistically, just an emotionally-loaded but irrelevant point to try to enforce one's opinions on another thinking individual by compelling an emotional response, rather than a reasoned consideration. This stretches a long way from the discussion of a consenting adult who chooses to be in a bdsm relationship.

Again, comparing butting into a consenting relationship to the existence of a domestic violence shelter that provides safe haven is nothing but clouding of the argument to try to garner an emotional response. The domestic violence shelter is an option for an adult to -choose- to leave the situation xhe is in and start over, but the action has to happen on the part of the individual to -leave- said relationship -- the shelter's presence does not attempt to coerce or interfere... only to be present and effective, if the choice to leave is made.

Again, the psychiatrist argument is more clouding of the conditions under consideration. Psychiatrists don't go out on the street looking for patients -- the patient comes to hir. This is a conscious act, and while the patient may not realize that hir actions are going to result in hir incarceration, xhe -does-, of hir own free will, seek the care that could elicit that result.

The last one, in my mind, IS an example of butting one's nose into someone else's business where it has no reason to be, and it -is- a form of "killing by kindness", or the abuse of 'helpfulness'. If the wife came to me and asked for my help, yes, I could justify calling the cops on her. If the neighbors' noise was interfering with my ability to live peacefully in my own space, I might even call in a noise complaint -- but I would NOT consider it 'ethical' to call in someone 'beating up' hir domestic partner without having a clear picture (from one or more of the individuals involved) that my interference was welcomed. What if they were a BDSM household, everything was consensual, they were doing a caning or face-slapping scene, and the 'drinking' was a couple of glasses of wine with dinner? If you don't know them, who am I to judge the ideosyncracies of their relationship. It would be a completely different situation if the battered partner (male or female) came to me and said "I want to leave my mate, but I don't know what to do or where to go." I would get involved with that -- give whatever help I could and make sure that the person got connected to the people who could help... including the police.

Calla Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 252
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/3/2008 11:50:25 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Calla, you can see it any way you like. I don't remember asking you to clarify how you think about it....I was talking to dark as should have been obvious as I asked her directly to clarify HER thought process on it. You keep on comparing what I am discussing with a situation involving "consenting adults". Of course it's not gonna make a lick of sense to you when you view it that way because I am NOT talking about an adult who is capable of consenting. You choose to think that I am intentionally obfuscating to ignite an emotional response....you are welcome to that thought.

quote:

The last one, in my mind, IS an example of butting one's nose into someone else's business where it has no reason to be, and it -is- a form of "killing by kindness", or the abuse of 'helpfulness'.


I'm really glad you're not my neighbor. See it as you like but you just took it and complicated the shit out of it by adding in all this BDSM nonsense. I don't know about you but I do make a point of getting to know my neighbors. You will notice that in my example I said he was drunk and beating the crap out of his wife YET AGAIN. Maybe you missed that part. Odd that you say that you would call the police if it was disturbing YOUR peace. You say "what if they were a BDSM household"? Well, what if they weren't? What if the only thing that could make a difference between her living and dying was you....and you were too worried about being politically correct to help her? Pffffftttt! I don't understand people like you.....and further more.....I don't ever want to.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/3/2008 12:16:46 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I am NOT talking about an adult who is capable of consenting.

Can you concisely specify what criteria qualify someone to be "capable of consenting"?

Can you do so in a universal way? If not, then you are merely projecting your expectations onto the freedom of others.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I don't understand people like you.....and further more.....I don't ever want to.

That much, unfortunately, is evident.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/3/2008 12:17:09 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/3/2008 12:43:05 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		NihilusZero, respectfully, the instance that I have been discussing here on this thread is one that I have followed VERY closely since it presented itself on these boards several years ago. There has been a TON of information that has led me to my conclusions on it. It is not something that I have come to lightly. Having spent many years working in the mental health field, several of those years specifically in the area of Domestic Violence, I do have a pretty fair understanding of what constitutes abuse. I also have a really good understanding of what it takes for a doctor, or more usually a team of doctors....and a court....to declare you incompetent and commit you to remain in the custody of the state because you have been deemed unable to care for yourself. Can I specifically tell you the criteria involved that make someone capable of consent? Nope, I sure can't. It's one of those things that must be decided on a case per case basis. But I can tell you precisely what makes someone incapable of consent. A legal document signed by doctors and judges that says that you have been examined and in their best professional opinions they deem you incapable. Signed, stamped and sealed. Until that decision is countered and overturned....it's definitely criteria enough for me.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/3/2008 12:49:35 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

NihilusZero, respectfully, the instance that I have been discussing here on this thread is one that I have followed VERY closely since it presented itself on these boards several years ago. There has been a TON of information that has led me to my conclusions on it. It is not something that I have come to lightly. Having spent many years working in the mental health field, several of those years specifically in the area of Domestic Violence, I do have a pretty fair understanding of what constitutes abuse. I also have a really good understanding of what it takes for a doctor, or more usually a team of doctors....and a court....to declare you incompetent and commit you to remain in the custody of the state because you have been deemed unable to care for yourself. Can I specifically tell you the criteria involved that make someone capable of consent? Nope, I sure can't. It's one of those things that must be decided on a case per case basis. But I can tell you precisely what makes someone incapable of consent. A legal document signed by doctors and judges that says that you have been examined and in their best professional opinions they deem you incapable. Signed, stamped and sealed. Until that decision is countered and overturned....it's definitely criteria enough for me.


"Guns are real. Blue uniforms are real. Police are a social fiction."
-Robert Anton Wilson

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/3/2008 5:44:44 PM   
OneMoreWaste


Posts: 910
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Calla, you can see it any way you like. I don't remember asking you to clarify how you think about it....I was talking to dark as should have been obvious as I asked her directly to clarify HER thought process on it. You keep on comparing what I am discussing with a situation involving "consenting adults". Of course it's not gonna make a lick of sense to you when you view it that way because I am NOT talking about an adult who is capable of consenting.


Well, since that's what this thread was originally about before you and DesFIP derailed it with your rants about prop...


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-and the few still remember passion over rage-

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 257
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/4/2008 10:50:18 AM   
sujuguete


Posts: 263
Joined: 7/3/2008
From: DC metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

"Guns are real. Blue uniforms are real. Police are a social fiction."
-Robert Anton Wilson



Okay, you lost me on that one.  Care to indulge me in some exposition?

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"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For this reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/4/2008 10:55:49 AM   
sujuguete


Posts: 263
Joined: 7/3/2008
From: DC metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
You cannot make a person leave abuse if they accept it.  You cannot make someone give up drugs unless they want to.  You cannot make anyone believe something is wrong for them, just because it is wrong for you(generic).  You can say,'its not my choice' or 'it's not for me' but to say that it is wrong across the board, to me is wrong.

 
From reading your posts on these boards I have come to have a lot of respect for you, .dark..  But I must admit that I cannot wrap my head around your position that "consent" is a fiction.  Maybe I just don't understand the definition of "consent" that is being discussed.
 
In any case, the above quote caught my eye because of the use of the word "accept" in the context of actions that some might see as abusive.  How do you differentiate between "consent" and "acceptance?"

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"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For this reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 10/5/2008 12:12:03 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sujuguete
But I must admit that I cannot wrap my head around your position that "consent" is a fiction.  Maybe I just don't understand the definition of "consent" that is being discussed.
 

Think of it this way: Consent, as we mean it, requires that the person consenting be "sane" and "aware". There's no way for us to tell whether another person is sane or aware, and in many cases we can simply decide that someone isn't sane or aware in order to deny their "consent" - especially when we are uncomfortable with what they're consenting to - so it appears that consent is just a word that we throw at things to tell ourselves that we're okay with some things and not others.

(in reply to sujuguete)
Profile   Post #: 260
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