Doing the math ... (Full Version)

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Lawrence111 -> Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 8:06:51 PM)

Greetings:

As usual, when I LOG OUT of the collarme system, I am presented with a profile I am not interested in (a male dom's usually). Tonight something about one caught my eye.

In this profile, the man claims to be 31 (his photo looks it), and further claims to have been a "Master" for 13 years.

Math never having been my forte', I grabbed the trusty calculator, did the math, I concluded that he is saying that he became a Master at age 18.

I am always suspicious of similar claims. As I understood it, receiving that title (vs self-anointing one's self) usually happened after a time of mentorship and training from an already-titled Master/dominant/top (in some regions this took as long as two years). Therefore, in order to have earned the title, this man would have to be *some* age younger than 18 (OK< si forarguement's sake, at least 18).

I can see where a fem-sub could start at this age (with proper guidance.. specifically *what to look out FOR* ...I have known a few), but I would worry about an 18 year old male having been granted the complete freedom in the community to do whatever he wanted (swinging a single-tail, for example, with no in-depth training, perhaps *damaging* someone vs. *hurting* someone, giving them pain... where we might agree everything but "damaging" would be acceptable). Masters could usually get away with anything unless they were proven to be (by at least three impartial Masters - this is the way it was told to me, I was not there) a danger, a menace, and someone that the majority felt uncomfortable around. He would be further banned, no one could talk to him... but I digress.

While the above examples are possible (his parents home was a male-dom/feb-sub environment, or he lived in a environment like New York City, where the opportunities for this lifestyle would have been in full-bloom there and at that particular time in history), I think it is rather unlikely. There's the idea that someone 18 years of age when confronted with a naked femal who he finds attractive, is going to start "thinking with his GLANDS and not his brains).

Thus, I tend to take these claims with a pound and a half of salt, and carefully review what they have to say, either in a profile, or in a chat room, or where someone has some mail that seems fishy, that they would like me toi take a look at it. If it doesn't make sense, or is dead wrong, I will bring up alternative points of view, *then* make a general statement "some of the proceeding opinions.... were crap."

LOL... anyway ...

The other explanation (and I have seen this a lot) that it is also possible that he could have *developed and interest in the lifestyle* at 18. When asked about their actual experience in years, many become anxious and defensive, fearful that someone will see them as somehow "less" in they tell the truth. They will say something like, "I like my BDSM in private, so I do not to clubs, or munches, or social gatherings." This can also scream "syburrrrrrrrrrr-only " and/or "married", but I'll leave that for another thread.

I have talked to a lot of guys like that. (Now they run away from me LOL) I would explain to them that if 'first discovery' is how you are counting the years of your experience, then I have *51* years of experience (starting at age 5) starting with a game of Cowboys and Indians, and after having "captured" the Indian Maiden Princess, and then having *spanked* her...mercy, mercy, and not only did she not run away to tell her mother, but she *ground* her hips into mine.

But, that's another thread.

So that was "my first time", but that doesn't mean I have had 51 years of experience: between then and about 8 years ago, I would do rope and chains and spankings and sex with various partners, but I had not given it a generic name yet. So, I would never claim to have 51 years of experience, nor would I self-anoint myself with the title "Master."

Finally they just might be outright lying, saying this to puff themselves up in an effort to be more attractive to their prey (some fem-sub might think, "Whoa! With this dude, I will be safe") or because they feel a lack of self confidence.

I have seen threads before and over the years that talked about outing someone, who has done something bad to someone else, but this doesn't usually work (and shouldn't, much as someone can get under our skin: a person should be presumed innocent until proven guilty).

So how do we check out these people to, at the least ,determine that they are not a threat to anyone?

Or, should we even bother checking them out? If an inexperienced fem-sub comes along, and into BDSM, should we then go on the assumption that she hopefully is mature enough that she can watch out for herself ?

I would suggest getting a dialog going with the dude, and see if he in fact counting from the age of awareness (his first awareness), or if there is some other reason that we are missing.

So ... what are your feelings ? Thank you :)

Sincerely,

Lawrence
Ithaca, NY



sweetieboop -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 8:48:40 PM)

Well, it IS possible. My Master started training as a slave at 15, before he realised his true calling. So I imagine that if he trained as a slave for 3 years and then became a Master at 18, it's a possibility, right? I'm not saying that this is the case because I'm unsure how long it took him to realise who he is. Although I find this to be extremely rare, I believe it to be possible. I'm curious why you feel the need to go out of your way to protect people from someone you don't even know though. I'm not saying this in a malicious way either. Just curious. ;)



proudsub -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 8:56:46 PM)

Here's another thread on the same subject:

18 yr olds



Sundew02 -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 9:11:54 PM)

Lawrence, Simular thoughts have been brought up in multiple posts. The consensus is that there is really very little we can do as a group. My feelings are that you need to ask lots of questions of the person before meeting them. A vanilla meet with more questions and of course always having a safe call.
Being a Domme I don't have quite the situation that a submissive would find themselves in, but I still use as many safety nets as possible when meeting a new person D/s or otherwise. As the electronic age continues to grow more and more people will use it inappropriately.
As I have said many times, anyone can type anything they want. I can say I am 29, blonde/blue, with a 18 inch waist, now prove me wrong from there. laughing.
In response to the question posed by sweetieboop " why would you care?", hopefully we all care if another human being is in danger and attempt to protect others as much as we can. Stay safe, Sundew



Estring -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 9:37:10 PM)

I'm always suspicious of anyone who calls themselves a Master. And especially when they use it in their nicks.



Leonidas -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 9:55:54 PM)

I'm always suspicious when someone calls me "a Master". "Master" is an honorific, at least in my community. It makes no more sense to say "a Master" than it does to say "a Sir". I am a man. Women that I happen to own may address me as "Master". Slaves in general (in my community) may address me as "Master", but I'm not "a Master".

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



sweetieboop -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 10:12:57 PM)

quote:

In response to the question posed by sweetieboop " why would you care?", hopefully we all care if another human being is in danger and attempt to protect others as much as we can.


Excuse me. I didn't mean why would you care about someone getting hurt. I mean, the way I read it, it seems as though there is noone in particular to worry about. Just the thought of someone maybe getting deceived by this person when we don't even now what the truth actually is. Does that make sense? I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly.



Estring -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/1/2004 10:16:22 PM)

It's too bad that more Doms don't feel that way.



ShadowHwk -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 6:14:28 AM)

While there have been other threads about this, I thought I would weigh in here.

I had my first slave when I was about 20 or 21 years old. Did I think I was a Master? Yes. Was I wrong? Pretty much *laugh* Did I/we make a bunch of mistakes and learn a LOT? Of course. Looking back on it I was a blundering pompous ass. Did I have a mentor? Nope. Did I even know there were others like me? I didn't have a clue. Did she have a clue? No, not really. Did we enjoy it? Absolutely. Beyond any shadow of a doubt we enjoyed it immensely.

Imagine my surprise years later when I realized there were others like me! Who enjoyed what I had come to call "the dark side" of personal relationships. What? You mean someone actually manufacturers bondage gear? No way! *laugh* What a rush that was – I was like a kid in a very demented candy store. Hmmm guess I still am.

As for putting the word “Master” and/or “Mistress” in my online nickname – blech – perish the thought. If the only way you know I am a dominant is because I declare myself as such in my nickname then I can’t really be all that much of one. As for what I expect to be called? Master is an honorific, and I get damn uncomfortable if someone uses that out of context, or gives me that title with out knowing fuck all about me.

So my thoughts are this (getting back on topic here); He may have had a slave at age 18, but it is highly unlikely that anyone from the community would have declared him a Master at that age. But in this lifestyle there is NO regulation. No certification, no way to prove or disprove the fitness of a particular individual in a particular role. Do we really want such a thing? I don’t. Many of the things I do are not considered safe or sane – and I intend to pursue them with vigor for many a year to come.

Fakes and liars inhabit the ‘net like mice in the grassy field out back, they are a pain, but they will breed and multiply no matter what we do. The best defense is to bring the fakes and liars into the fold so to speak, teach them enough so that they are not a danger to others, provide sources of information so that newbies (both Dom and sub) have a place to learn.

Peace and Light
Terry



sweetieboop -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 6:21:12 AM)

I'm curious. Did he say that he's been a Master for 13 years, or did he claim to be a Master and have experience in the lifestyle for 13 years?



Lawrence111 -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 8:10:41 AM)

Hello everyone: I was the original poster. I hope this note of mine is not too long-winded: I am struggling with a stiff neck that I have had for two weeks ... ughhh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieboop

I'm curious. Did he say that he's been a Master for 13 years, or did he claim to be a Master and have experience in the lifestyle for 13 years?


He claimed to be *a Master* for 13 years, (starting at age 18, in his case) and I was questioning as to whether others here felt that this could be possible, or at the least likely/unlikely. Many responded with their comments.

As to your question concerning why do I "go out of <my> way to protect people from someone <I> don't even know " ... the answer is (agreeing with Sundew02) we all watch out for one another (I would hope), in our respective communities, in order to keep potential predators away from the very inexperienced among us (who tend to "jump in with both feet... and someone else's," this said to me by an experienced fem-sub friend of mine). The very inexperienced but anxious-to-be-involved are sometimes seen as 'easier' to "get to" or "easy prey for predators," because their natural defences are down, and they may not be thinking clearly (*wanting* this so much that caution can go out the window). Further, you can see why; "I am the Master here and you have to do everything I say," would be a red flag for you, for example, as a more experienced person, but for the new person... this may be *the truth", and she had better do what she has been told (even if doing it conflicts with her sense of right and wrong, for example, and should have been talked out before getting to that point).

If in my real-world community, I got to talking with someone like this man (claiming what he claims), I would, in casual conversation, ask him about his experience, perhaps ask for a peek at his toybag, etc. If I found him to be fake (again, in my humble opinion only) I would inform the management of the group of my opinion, asking that the management pay particular attention to him *so that an inexperienced person would at least have a head's up about this person.* Someone who is faking it in the real-world can be dangerous with some toy in their hand that they have no real world experience using (cyber experience doesn't count). We are fortunate to be able to do this in the real world.

We are not so fortunate in the cyber world. When I see words or read a profile like this, I am, as Estring and others have said, cautious and further suspicious if they referred to themselves as a Master, or if they had "Master" in their nickname, and/or if they used the "convention" of "Me" or "Mine" CAPS-in-the-middle-of-a-sentence, or "O/our" or "Y/your" *anywhere in a sentence. Some of those examples simply scream "syyyyburrrrrr" at me ... and it follows that, someone who is cyber-only would not necessarily be safe engaging in real-world activities.

In short, my concern is for those who would not be experienced enough to see a potential red flag. Who is to say that an inexperienced submissive would have enough experience to know what signs to watch out for? So when I see something questionable, I question it. My posting here was to raise the question-of-questioning issue, to see what others thought, and I am grateful for the many and thoughtful responses.

By the way, I am fortunate that my local group does an extensive screening process before someone can attend, so incidences like the above rarely, if ever, happen.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Lawrence
Ithaca, NY



innocentangel -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 9:16:17 AM)

my Master was introduced to the lifestyle at 16, a Master/mentor of His started teaching Him the whip at 16. When He turned 18, my Master went and studied the lifestyle from a very close Mentor, living it even for 4 years. I wouldn't knock anyone who said they became a Master at 18. You don't always know the story behind it. I love my Master dearly, and He's a very wise and intelligent Man. i believe He learned alot, and knows He's had the experience necessary. Now He's 29, so He's had plenty of time to practice what He's learned......just my 2 bits.

innocent angel



afmvdp -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 9:54:58 AM)

I was taken in by a female Domina, one of the very few who I quite honestly admire, at the age of 14 as a submissive and was there for nearly two years subjected to things many could never imagine. When I was ascended from there I knew exactly the path I was to follow. Still a novice and a child, I knew what needed to be done. Over time that got far more refined and precise, still is. It'll likely be another twenty years before I am at the level I desire to be, though I can honestly say I could meet up tit for tat against any even twice my age but perhaps the few other rare lifers. So sometimes the math is overcompensated with by the situation. You'll know when you talk to them though.



proudsub -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 3:28:21 PM)

quote:

I was taken in by a female Domina, one of the very few who I quite honestly admire, at the age of 14 as a submissive and was there for nearly two years subjected to things many could never imagine.


I am curious how this came about at age 14. What about your parents? If that is too personal please say so.



afmvdp -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 3:40:38 PM)

What children do when not under their parents eye is often quite drastically different then they might assume.

Though I would also say that shortly after meeting this woman, I moved in with her and later on emancipated just before I turned 16. So what my parents had to say meant very little at this point. I dropped out of school at that time, but shortly after being legaly able to, went back to school got a general degree that month and finished at a CC just after I had turned 18 and working two jobs in the process. Seems like a lifetime ago though really.

And despite what others have stated in the past, I do not believe I was taken advantage of in any way. I believe it was a blessing in my life to bring me out of where I was and into an entirely new life and would certainly do it again if I was to live my life over. Things weren't easy but they were worth it in the end.

Again though, that is a distant past...though perhaps why no one ever realizes how young I actually am until I tell them. I tell them I'm 25 turning 46. ;) haha



SherriA -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 8:58:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lawrence111
As I understood it, receiving that title (vs self-anointing one's self) usually happened after a time of mentorship and training from an already-titled Master/dominant/top (in some regions this took as long as two years).


There is no accreditation system in the BDSM world. There's no set criteria for a "master" any more than there is for a "slave". There is no time line, nor any prescribed course of study to earn a title. Small communities might have specific standards of that sort, but there's nothing even remotely close to concensus about it. Frankly, I'd be suspicious of anyone professed to have such a criteria, because I don't think it allows for individual differences. After 2 years you're automatically a "master"? I know people who have been doing wiitwd for longer than that, and they're not a master of much of anything other than perhaps masturbating, in my eyes. But then, I don't get to decide that. Nor does anyone else, outside of the interaction in question.

quote:


I would worry about an 18 year old male having been granted the complete freedom in the community to do whatever he wanted (swinging a single-tail, for example, with no in-depth training, perhaps *damaging* someone vs. *hurting* someone, giving them pain... where we might agree everything but "damaging" would be acceptable).


Who is going to decide if he's "qualified"? Who has any right to decide, other than those he's playing with? I don't give a fuck if anyone else thinks I'm competent, frankly. If my partners feel confident in my abilities, I don't have to justify myself to anyone else.

Age isn't a defining criterion for skill or competence. I know people who were using whips on the farm before they were teenagers. They were a lot more skilled at 13 than a lot of people I see in a dungeon who are 2 or even 3 times that age.


quote:

Masters could usually get away with anything unless they were proven to be (by at least three impartial Masters - this is the way it was told to me, I was not there) a danger, a menace, and someone that the majority felt uncomfortable around. He would be further banned, no one could talk to him... but I digress.


I've never heard of any such means of imposing sanctions. It may be true in a specific small community, but it's certainly not true for the BDSM community in general, at least not as I've encountered it. But then, I'd not want to be an integral part of any community that assumed that just because someone claimed the title of "master" that he should be allowed to do whatever he wanted. That's simply not the sort of group I'd be found hanging out with.

quote:

Thus, I tend to take these claims with a pound and a half of salt, and carefully review what they have to say, either in a profile, or in a chat room, or where someone has some mail that seems fishy, that they would like me toi take a look at it. If it doesn't make sense, or is dead wrong, I will bring up alternative points of view, *then* make a general statement "some of the proceeding opinions.... were crap."


What does that have to do with age? The same could be said for a 50+ year old man, or a 60+ year old woman, or whatever. And who's to say that your (or my) opinions and beliefs should carry any more weight than the person we're denigrating?

quote:

The other explanation (and I have seen this a lot) that it is also possible that he could have *developed and interest in the lifestyle* at 18. When asked about their actual experience in years, many become anxious and defensive, fearful that someone will see them as somehow "less" in they tell the truth. They will say something like, "I like my BDSM in private, so I do not to clubs, or munches, or social gatherings." This can also scream "syburrrrrrrrrrr-only " and/or "married", but I'll leave that for another thread.


I started doing SM when I was 16. I was actively looking for it for 2 years prior to that (took me awhile to find a fuck buddy that was legitimately interested). And I did all my playing in private for several years. I lived in an isolated community. There were no options for munches, social groups, educational organizations, etc. There was no one to tell us if we were doing it right or wrong. We did what felt right for us...we experimented...we made mistakes and learned from them.

I had 3 different partners before I moved to the city for University. Once I was there, I found it easier to find partners, but I still didn't find a community of any sort. I didn't know such a thing existed. I didn't find a public community until a later partner moved away and sent me a link to the "scene" in the nearest city, 7 hrs drive away. I'd been doing SM for a decade before I became part of the public scene.

And yeah, being part of the public scene gave me exposure to a lot of things that I might not have discovered otherwise. And I learned a lot. And I also saw a lot of bullshit.

So, I'm 36 now. Should I say that I've been doing SM for 10 years, since that's about how long I've been "public" about it? Does the first 10 years not count? Why not? Who decided that the only bdsm that's "real" is the stuff done in public? I knew what I was doing was S&M...I knew there was a name for it, and that other people did it. I just didn't know they congregated or that I could find them.

quote:

So how do we check out these people to, at the least ,determine that they are not a threat to anyone?


Check them out to see if they're a threat to *you*, if you intend to get involved with them in some way. I don't see any need for you to check them out otherwise. What business is it of yours?

quote:


Or, should we even bother checking them out? If an inexperienced fem-sub comes along, and into BDSM, should we then go on the assumption that she hopefully is mature enough that she can watch out for herself ?


Ya know, this is one of my pet peeves. Why is it assumed that novice women, particularly women who self-identify as submissive, are somehow clueless or need protection? Yes, I assume that *everyone* is competent, until they do something to indicate otherwise. I'm also a big believer in personal responsibility. I don't need protecting, and I think there's value in learning from your own mistakes. I think there's value in thinking for yourself and doing your own risk/reward assessments, rather than relying on someone else's judgement. Just because you think some guy is a total dweeb doesn't mean he's not the perfect partner for me.


quote:

So ... what are your feelings ?


I'm guessing you can pretty much figure out my feelings, but just in case you can't, I'll spell them out for you. There is NO One True Way. There is no governing body who grants BDSM certification. Sure, we all make judgements, but that doesn't mean they're right, or that anyone else should heed them. Keep your opinions to your own damned self, or share them with people who ask for them. Otherwise, mind your own bloody business.



MizSuz -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/2/2004 9:11:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

Keep your opinions to your own damned self, or share them with people who ask for them. Otherwise, mind your own bloody business.



SO LET IT BE WRITTEN, SO LET IT BE DONE!

(I gave her the depo shot tonight...hang in there folks...her hormones will level off shortly). BAAAHAHAHAHAHA



Lawrence111 -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/13/2004 2:41:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

Keep your opinions to your own damned self, or share them with people who ask for them. Otherwise, mind your own bloody business.



SO LET IT BE WRITTEN, SO LET IT BE DONE!

(I gave her the depo shot tonight...hang in there folks...her hormones will level off shortly). BAAAHAHAHAHAHA



Well, thanks to all who responded with so many different opinions that I had not encountered before.

It's always good to review the perspective of others, no matter how they express themselves.

Thanks again :)

Sincerely,

Lawrence
Ithaca, NY



D0m1n8tor -> RE: Doing the math ... (8/13/2004 4:45:25 PM)

Doh ,

I hate all these titles n lables n stuff.

Ive always considered the role of "the person in charge" and the person "whos not in charge" to be a relative and fluid thing.

Sooner or later I may meet someone who will think Im gods gift and that when I press all the mental buttons she'll turn to mush on me. Relative to one another she thinks Im the greatest and will submit to all things on her "want to do list". I guess to her she may think of me as Sir , Master , King of the universe , or whatever. It doesnt matter to me , as long as we are both happy.

Just becuase then shes happy and has attached some label to me , it doesnt mean that everyone sees me in the same light , some other subbie will no doubt find me as dominant as a snail. Relative to oneanother these other subbies are not subbie at all , they are dealing with me as an equal. Ive no problem with that, in fact I talk with a lot of subbies as freinds and while they are respectful I dont expect them to be falling to their knees !

Regardless of the "Maths" involved this individual may only have been "Master" in the eyes of one person only for all that time.

Paul



sentinel2u -> RE: Doing the math ... (5/28/2007 1:15:18 PM)

What my feelings are about this as I read? *s*

I would run fast from anyone who claims to have become a master of anything by that age. I don't think that it is worth giving that person much time. There are people out there who truly mastered some areas of life and they are usually humble people, leading by example and their work. You usually don't even need them to confirm who they are, you feel it and you see it by the way they act , talk, and present themselves. You also see it by observing the people around them and the reactions to that person.




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