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RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:09:49 AM

subtee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Obama has admitted that his tax increases would hurt the economy.

This was published by the UnionLeader... Sep. 11, 2008

The UnionLeader is famously conservative. They don't even pretend partiality.

And this doesn't even follow from A to B. Obama's quote: "I think we've got to take a look and see where the economy is. I mean, the economy is weak right now. The news with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, I think, along with the unemployment numbers, indicates that we're fragile."

And their conclusion? "That is a clear acknowledgement that raising taxes would have a negative impact on economic growth. But for Obama, slowing the economy is OK if it's growing, but possibly not OK if it is shrinking. That doesn't make any sense."

How is saying we need to see where the economy is a clear acknowledgement of anything?

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Post #: 21

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:11:05 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol: Bullshit. What's costly is three TRILLION bucks for a stupid war, and 85 BILLION a pop for rescuing large financial institutions from their stupidity by borrowing dough at hugely inflated rate from China and the Middle East - and these are only tiny drops in an ocean of irresponsible spending.

Ah, but hold on... it's so much easier to blame the school children and the working single mothers for this disgusting mess, isn't it?

Selective reading comprehension - evidence of one of the aforementioned failed program - Education.

Better to continue to pump up and fund failure right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yeah, throw the foreign aid in there as well, makes for a tastier COCKtail.

Just for you - KS - Enjoy it!

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Post #: 22

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:17:13 AM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Obama has admitted that his tax increases would hurt the economy.

This was published by the UnionLeader... Sep. 11, 2008

The UnionLeader is famously conservative. They don't even pretend partiality.

And this doesn't even follow from A to B. Obama's quote: "I think we've got to take a look and see where the economy is. I mean, the economy is weak right now. The news with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, I think, along with the unemployment numbers, indicates that we're fragile."

And their conclusion? "That is a clear acknowledgement that raising taxes would have a negative impact on economic growth. But for Obama, slowing the economy is OK if it's growing, but possibly not OK if it is shrinking. That doesn't make any sense."

How is saying we need to see where the economy is a clear acknowledgement of anything?

His answer was direct and to the point, eh? He sounded very decisive and knowledgable on the issue, it was almost inspiring.

His other quotes which were posted around here a week or 2 ago, said. If the economy was in recession that he wouldn't follow through with the tax increases.

Which leads to a very simple question, if those tax increases are good for economic growth, why wouldn't they be even more appropriate during a recession?

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Post #: 23

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:20:17 AM

housesub4you

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Yea but you never addresed the idea/fact that MCain's plans add's 300 billion to the national debt. He is just puttting off paying the bill untill after he is gone (from office)

If you want links, just search McCains tax plan

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 24

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:27:07 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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You know folks the sad part about our problems is that the large Percentage of our paper is in the hands of china and third world countrys banks etc, ones that we are still pumping aid into every day,Another thing if ol' Bounty's business's were failing would the goverment bail me out .you bet you ass they wouldn't...One of bounty's rules never spend more then you make....

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Post #: 25

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:27:46 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Selective reading comprehension - evidence of one of the aforementioned failed program - Education.

My education was fabulous - thanks for reminding me that I didn't have to suffer from the underfunding and governmental neglect that ail the American system.

But enough about me: do you think an educational system can answer to shareholders? How do you quantify 'failure' in education? Time for another thread, perhaps?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 9/18/2008 11:28:17 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:28:36 AM

subtee

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A sunny day is beneficial to growing things. A sunny day during a terrible drought is not beneficial.

Let me ask you this, does McCain diss Spain? Is it plain? Or disdain?

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Post #: 27

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:30:01 AM

housesub4you

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Very true so why don;t you ask the GOP why we are in this mess, since for the last 7 years they have supported everything in place

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Post #: 28

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:36:25 AM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

A good start would be cutting a few hundred Billion dollars from economic redistribution and failed social engineering experiments based upon 'good intent', 'for the children', and 'for the lobbyists'. Another couple of hundred billion can be realized by cutting foreign aid, and letting Iraq - who has a budget surplus, pay for their own countries security.

Do that - and he can initiate a tax cut~!

Total US discretionary spending is only $491B a year. It only amounts to 18% of the federal budget. Interest on the national debt is now an eye-popping 9% or $245B. Defense spending is 20%.

If you wanted to reduce federal spending, you'd have to look to other parts of the budget besides the small discretionary part.

Next, McCain and the republicans have a zero track record in reducing US spending. Clinton was better than either Reagan-Bush or GWB.

Seems you're shit out of luck if you expect or entertain any idea of McCain cutting federal spending or getting the national debt under control.

This is just the clear as day political reality.

The way to get things under control would be to raise taxes and cut defense spending. Some curb on entitlements might also be effective if that were in any way politically feasible.

There'd also have to be a severe reduction of fear mongering and exaggeration of foreign threats.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/18/2008 11:39:29 AM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:37:19 AM

kittinSol

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"The rain in Spain falls mainly on McCain." ~ Dr Doolittle.

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Post #: 30

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:38:00 AM

Thadius

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If you are talking about the Dem talking points, then I will agree that they are claiming that it will do so. I am interested in your claim that the claimed $300 Billion is more than the debt that will be added under Obama's plans. Even if we were to see the entire $10 Billion a month in savings from ending the war in Iraq, where are the rest of these offsets to spending? Every week he is adding another $50 or $10 Billion spending program. Which brings us back to the point I made earlier.

If the tax increases are good for the economy and budget, how are they not more appropriate during a recession?

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Post #: 31

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:42:41 AM

subtee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"The rain in Spain falls mainly on McCain." ~ Dr Doolittle.

~~~if he can find it
http://wordpress.com/tag/mccain-spain/

[Edit to add, this should probably constitute a new thread but I dont' want to start it. I am actually feeling badly for the guy.]

< Message edited by subtee -- 9/18/2008 11:45:42 AM >

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Don't believe everything you think...

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Post #: 32

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:50:25 AM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

A good start would be cutting a few hundred Billion dollars from economic redistribution and failed social engineering experiments based upon 'good intent', 'for the children', and 'for the lobbyists'. Another couple of hundred billion can be realized by cutting foreign aid, and letting Iraq - who has a budget surplus, pay for their own countries security.

Do that - and he can initiate a tax cut~!

Total US discretionary spending is only $491B a year. It only amounts to 18% of the federal budget. Interest on the national debt is now an eye-popping 9% or $245B. Defense spending is 20%.

If you wanted to reduce federal spending, you'd have to look to other parts of the budget besides the small discretionary part.

Next, McCain and the republicans have a zero track record in reducing US spending. Clinton was better than either Reagan-Bush or GWB.

Seems you're shit out of luck if you expect or entertain any idea of McCain cutting federal spending or getting the national debt under control.

This is just the clear as day political reality.

The way to get things under control would be to raise taxes and cut defense spending. Some curb on entitlements might also be effective if that were in any way politically feasible.

I seem to remember having this talk with you not so long ago. So let's get to them one by one.

1. The biggest growth in government spending is madatory spending... various programs such as medicare, social security, and yes the debt (this being the only one that there is any hope of curbing through spending policies).

2. Which Dem congress decreased spending again? I seem to remember a few threats of government shutdowns because a certain other party wanted to cut discetionary spending during the '90s... go figure.

3. Both major party candidates have proposed increases in defense spending, so looks like that one is not going to occur.

4. If raising taxes is good for the economy and the budget, why is Obama backing off his proposed raises if we are in recession?

5. Limiting discretionary spending increases to 2.4% growth, will allow for the revenues coming in to out perform that which is going out, thus leaving no red ink on the budget. Oh and some of that extra money can be paid towards the debt.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 33

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:57:23 AM

bestbabync

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i have heard alot about the "fair tax" or "flat tax"...i am curious to hear others viewpoint. would this be the "Magic Act" to bail us out of this mess?

again this could be another thread...but i am just curious!

< Message edited by bestbabync -- 9/18/2008 11:58:16 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 11:58:36 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Selective reading comprehension - evidence of one of the aforementioned failed program - Education.

My education was fabulous - thanks for reminding me that I didn't have to suffer from the underfunding and governmental neglect that ail the American system.

But enough about me: do you think an educational system can answer to shareholders? How do you quantify 'failure' in education? Time for another thread, perhaps?

I "quantify" failure by results. The US is far behind many countries spending LESS per student than in the US system. But that brings into the equation social and personal accountability - The US is trying to outlaw that so it wouldn't be a fair comparison.

How about a comparison within the country.

quote:

School district spending per pupil was highest in New York ($14,884), followed by New Jersey ($14,630) and the District of Columbia ($13,446). States where school districts spent the lowest amount per pupil were Utah ($5,437), Idaho ($6,440) and Arizona ($6,472). (See Tables 8 and 11.) Source: http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/011747.html

Top spenders HS Graduation rates: NY 70%, NJ 75%, DC 59%
Low end HS Graduation rates: UT 81%, ID 78%, AR, 59%,

Spending and results are NOT relative. Meanwhile, the numbers indicate that Washington DC can spend $7k less and get the same results. Better yet - use the $7k to move the kids to Arizona increase the spending in Arizona by $2k/kid and fire those responsible for the results in DC and close the schools. Overall it costs less to fund similar failure in Arizona.

Solution isn't pointed to "shareholders" it should be pointed to results. Teachers who fail their students should be fired. Students who fail should be allowed to fail. Education, NOT a right guaranteed anywhere in the Constitution, should not be a required by the Government. It should be a privilege to attend a publicly funded school - not a mandated path to social indoctrination, teaching the modern age religions, such as global warming, as facts.

Results should be the only quantitative measure accepted. As is should be in ALL situations. Congress can't balance the budget - put people in Congress who can. Failure must be recognized, a path to improve established; but failure should have consequence and not be rewarded. Achievement must replace the foolish acceptance and accolades that now comes with mediocrity and an established policy that everyone gets a 'trophy'. It's as valuable as the effort that took to earn it.

I know you rarely (ever?) point to a reference to back up anything you say. Since in this case you put your high end education up for comparison, how about comparing the expenditures per student of your country of origin to any US state?

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 35

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 12:02:29 PM

NuminousLeader

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Well, lets not put the pony before the wagon. It seems to me their are a lot of people suffering the GOP would rather ignore (you know the ones losong their 401K and and retirement funds)

A basic acounting class will tell you spendig more than you have will cause crisis, but the GOP seems to think the well will never run dry.

McCains plans are counting on a future he cannot promise, we have to pay for the last 7 years of the GOP going nuts with spending, but the only way they can win is to say it was not them.

Well it was and McCain was a member of that party

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Post #: 36

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 12:03:30 PM

kittinSol

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Education doesn't have to be 'high end' to be of good quality, Merc - whatever made you think otherwise?

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Post #: 37

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 12:06:16 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Education, NOT a right guaranteed anywhere in the Constitution, should not be a required by the Government. It should be a privilege to attend a publicly funded school - not a mandated path to social indoctrination, teaching the modern age religions, such as global warming, as facts.

......er.....neither is the internet in the constitution. Lots of things aren't. However, if education stops being a federally mandated thing how far behind the rest of the world will the US fall when its illiteracy rates increase to double figures?
And to be very specific.....global warming is a fact. The only thing at issue (and only for some) is how significent the human influence is on it.

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Post #: 38

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 12:15:49 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuminousLeader

Well, lets not put the pony before the wagon. It seems to me their are a lot of people suffering the GOP would rather ignore (you know the ones losong their 401K and and retirement funds)

I think the pony belongs in front of the wagon... putting the cart before the horse seems to be the norm for some folks these days. Ignoring folks? Sort of like blocking proposed legislation that would have closed the door on the barn before the horse was out of it?

quote:

A basic acounting class will tell you spendig more than you have will cause crisis, but the GOP seems to think the well will never run dry.

I agree the GOP was horrid at controlling spending when they got power of congress and the White House. What have the Dems done since they gained control to solve the problem? NINJA loans, no oversight, and encouraged even more spending. A pox on both of their houses (GOP and Dems).

quote:

McCains plans are counting on a future he cannot promise, we have to pay for the last 7 years of the GOP going nuts with spending, but the only way they can win is to say it was not them.

Obama seems to be making promises that only lead to further debt and a further slowing of the economy. How does that pay for the last 7 years (2 of which were controlled by the Dems)?

quote:

Well it was and McCain was a member of that party

Indeed the GOP was bad about spending, who is the one person that has gotten throttled time and again for opposing their party? For opposing spending increases? Just one last question, who signed the legislation that deregulated the industries that we are having to bail out now?

Pointing fingers is easy as there is enough blame to go around.

_____________________________

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Post #: 39

RE: Perhaps a Magic Act? - 9/18/2008 12:24:58 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Education, NOT a right guaranteed anywhere in the Constitution, should not be a required by the Government. It should be a privilege to attend a publicly funded school - not a mandated path to social indoctrination, teaching the modern age religions, such as global warming, as facts.

......er.....neither is the internet in the constitution. Lots of things aren't. However, if education stops being a federally mandated thing how far behind the rest of the world will the US fall when its illiteracy rates increase to double figures?
And to be very specific.....global warming is a fact. The only thing at issue (and only for some) is how significant the human influence is on it.

Don't understand your point philo. Who's advocating or mandating that each and every individual, even during school age, be on the internet?

Shouldn't your next question be; how much FURTHER will the US fall? I'd say it wouldn't if people who can't teach are eliminated from the teaching roles and a similar tactic is put in place for students who don't want to be there. I fully support a 'guild' style or education for those not wanting or willing to learn in the present system. Is there anyone who claims the current amount of money being spent is getting the expected return? I make a case for changing it.

Global warming is a fact? Really? Then show me one projection chart being use to advocate the religion that can be used to explain what did happen quite a few times previous in earths history. 'Global warming' isn't unique to this century. Until then, it's theory - a religious theory equal to creationism, complete with a Messiah and faith based followers; as well as 'grand inquisitors' assigned to torture and socially ostracize the heretics who dare to take a different position and demand quantitative substantiation before kneeling to the idol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol Education doesn't have to be 'high end' to be of good quality, Merc - whatever made you think otherwise?

I have no idea what relevance or to what point this is a response. Is it an attempt to avoid the cost per student challenge? Where is the association with "high end" and good education? Public schools are notorious for spending much more than comparable 'private' or 'parochial' schools. Yet with the same student demographics results are much poorer. That is another point that would be in conflict with your association with money spent on schools equals quality education. Its my position that accepting failure and having failures in teaching roles is the cause - NOT money.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 40

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