RE: White Privilege

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hoodie -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 5:54:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Ahhh....so many stripes are showing.... Race in and of itself is perhaps the most dividing of topics. I find it interesting that those who are denying "White Privilege" as the term was used are all white. To say that it doesn't or hasn't existed would be false. Is it as prevalent as it once was, no. But, honestly folks, look around. Popeye, the police and fireman you speak of all black? No dirty white cops in Boston? Ask Mr. Bulger, if they ever find him how many white cops he paid for. There is a cultural difference in the races for good or ill. Blame it on the Democrats?...As laughable as blaming it on the Republicans for not having very many blacks in their party. Do blacks have the right to advance? Certainly but, are there a proportionate amount of "good" schools" in "black areas"? Amazing topic, and one that no one will ever "win" an argument over.I believe in self determination as individuals, anyone who fails doesn't fail because of race nor is anyone guaranteed success because of race but, DO not deny history, it was real and it sets the future in many ways. Just a few observations from another Middle Aged White Guy.... Can you explain why, over the last few years, it has been Democrats who've killed all hope of school tuition voucher programs? There are plenty of inner city youth who would make a hell of an impression on a private school, if they could get the money to go. I live in Pennsylvania. We spend, per student, 10,000 to educate them. 50-60 percent of that 10,000 is building and administrative costs. Our schools look like college campuses. We have state of the art swimming pools, brand new football fields, etc... and our kids can't use a sentence with the words "your" and "you're" correctly. That's a problem. That's a HUGE problem. The answer is always...throw more money at the problem. Why, so the districts can mismanage more of it? The education system as a whole is BROKEN. The teacher's unions are hell bent on making sure their teachers, qualified or not, get what they deserve. District's need an act of Congress to fire a bad teacher. They have no way of rewarding those that go out of their way each day to make learning fun. But another reason why the educational system is broken... Parental involvement. Yes, you heard me right...and that transcends racial barriers. Parents, for whatever reason, have opted over the last 20 years to leave the educating up to the school, with hardly a word at home. The system's failing, the kids are failing, parents get a big F, and anytime an idea has come down the pike that isn't "increase spending in the districts" it's been killed. Do you honestly think that if MORE parent's in inner city school districts received vouchers to send their kids to get an education, the system will have to correct itself, or sink completely? Let me see if I can put it in terms we all understand. Over the last few days, many have said, "don't bail out these rich greedy bastards who've caused the financial crisis" Attribute that to school district administrators who make more in a DAY, than many of the families within that district do in a week. Now why should we bail them out?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 5:55:13 AM)
quote: Asians didn't have their culture destroyed so they have always had a viable educated middleclass and were not enslaved on mass and shipped to the other side of the world, allocated sub-human status and told for generations they were not as intelligent as other humans. One just needs to open ones eyes a little to see the inherent problems black people have to overcome. Asians starting coming to this country during the mid 19th Century. The people that came were not that educated, and they certainly weren't middle class. The amount of discrimination they faced was enormous. Laws were written at both the state and federal level to keep them out of jobs. Whites in this country and others in the West did tell them they were subhuman for generations and viewed them as unintelligent. I have never once claimed that racism hasn't or does not exist. It does exist, and it does create obstacles for people. But it's not as large of problem as it was in the past. In the last 50 years, we have passed law after law to stop discrimination. We have affirmative action. We give a free college education to anyone needy that wants it. I went to university in the South, and a large portion of the students were black women. No there weren't many black males. It's a phenomenon that has been discussed at length in this country for over a decade. But it's not because the opportunities aren't there. Opportunities abound for anyone that wants it.

meatcleaver -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:04:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou Asians starting coming to this country during the mid 19th Century. The people that came were not that educated, and they certainly weren't middle class. The amount of discrimination they faced was enormous. Laws were written at both the state and federal level to keep them out of jobs. Whites in this country and others in the West did tell them they were subhuman for generations and viewed them as unintelligent. But they came from self confident vibrant cultures, not cultures that had been destroyed and they weren't or hadn't been slaves. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I have never once claimed that racism hasn't or does not exist. It does exist, and it does create obstacles for people. But it's not as large of problem as it was in the past. In the last 50 years, we have passed law after law to stop discrimination. We have affirmative action. We give a free college education to anyone needy that wants it. I went to university in the South, and a large portion of the students were black women. No there weren't many black males. It's a phenomenon that has been discussed at length in this country for over a decade. But it's not because the opportunities aren't there. Opportunities abound for anyone that wants it. Laws aren't the problem or the solution. The problem is attitude and you just have to read this thread and other threads on CM where issues about black people have arisen and you can see the problem they face.

hoodie -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:07:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: hoodie Whoa! Perhaps you should also look at the African's who were selling their own people, number 1. The Africans that ended up in America were the ones that were sold and enslaved and told they were sub-human. The civil rights movement in the US is barely 50 years old, that is nothing in historical terms, it takes several generations for attitudes to change even in positive environments. Considering the comments by most people on this thread, blacks don't live in a positive environment. quote: ORIGINAL: hoodie Number 2, no one's circumstances are permanent. Period. There is a wealth of help garnered for all people. why not use it. This is obviously not true, otherwise social mobility in America would be better, not the worst in the developed world according to the OCED. quote: ORIGINAL: hoodie Number 3, explain to me, please, why any blacks who've become successful, don't vote Democrat are labeled traitors to their race, token blacks, or Uncle Tom's? The psychology of oppression. Its a well understood phenomenon quote: ORIGINAL: hoodie Number 4, explain to me how looking at 2008, in the eyes of 1850 is going to help. History should be examined. History should be learned from. History should NOT be the crutch that any human being uses to say, "it's your fault I can't do x,y,z." No one is looking at 2008 through the eyes of 1850. One just has to look at today's society to see hurdles still exist for blacks that don't for whites. quote: ORIGINAL: hoodie Number 5, talk about "white" privilege all you want to. The bottom line for any person is it is easier to point the finger, and blame someone else for our own misgivings, rather than take the blame ourselves. Show me a slave, I'll extend a hand. Show me a slaveowner, I'll slap them into next week. The problem is you cannot show me EITHER of the above classes of people, because they no longer exist. While slavery brought a great stain upon this nation, and I abhor the practice of holding another against their will, we're never going to move past this. And sometimes, again, call me crazy, I think this is perpetuated by people for political gain. Individuals always take racism as a personal criticism and claim they are not racist or responsible but it isn't individuals are necessarily racist but the culture, its the majority that suppresses a minority, usually by unrecognized insidious ways. One has to take time out and study the psycholgy at work to recognize it. Most people don't want to recognize it because it is uncomfortable to consider oneself as part of the oppressive majority. Just for the record, this is a western problem, not just a US problem. Hurdles don't exist for whites? excuse me. So there are no poor whites in America. Only blacks. Ok..got it. All of us face hurdles. You think it's easy being a single parent? Think again. You think it's easy being an adult who was abused as a child? Think again. You think it's easy just to remain sane in this society? Think again. The laws we have are oppresive to us all. Not just one particular race, creed or sex. In TODAY'S world, race isn't just the issue. Money has surpassed it. If you were born wealthy.... you'll remain as such. If you were born middle class, your chances to remain as such aren't so good. And if you were born poor, most often you stay that way. I would like to see honest dialogue about this issue. What I don't wish to see is the finger pointing most often associated with it. There are ALWAYS going to be people who are racist, in all races. Let's start with the acknowledgement there...

kittinSol -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:11:21 AM)
Nobody denies that there are social difficulties due to economic circumstances for everyone, not just black people. But to deny that being black doesn't add an extra layer of hardship de facto is a bare-faced lie. I would be interested to hear the point of view of the black posters here on collarchat - but after reading this thread, I'm not sure it's such an attractive proposition for them.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:12:17 AM)
quote: But they came from self confident vibrant cultures, not cultures that had been destroyed and they weren't or hadn't been slaves. Ah yeah that's right, slavery never existed in Asia. [8\|] I seem to remember China not outlawing the practice until the 20th Century. I also remember a certain Chinese dynasty attempting to destroy the entire culture of the majority, and there also being many huge wars that devestated the entire region. One particular civil war in the mid 19th Century competes with WWII for being the most bloody conflict in history. quote: Laws aren't the problem or the solution. The problem is attitude and you just have to read this thread and other threads on CM where issues about black people have arisen and you can see the problem they face. I guess we should send everyone to reeducation camps to change their attitude then.

hoodie -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:17:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Nobody denies that there are social difficulties due to economic circumstances for everyone, not just black people. But to deny that being black doesn't add an extra layer of hardship de facto is a bare-faced lie. I would be interested to hear the point of view of the black posters here on collarchat - but after reading this thread, I'm not sure it's such an attractive proposition for them. I work with several who have experienced racism. I think where they differ is they don't lump a whole race of people to those idiots. I don't take awy the fact that they have or will. What I do say is that one does not make the bunch. Where other's have experienced racism, some haven't. It's a hit and miss thing, this animal, and to lay all misfortune soley at it's feet isn't going to solve the problem. Nor is pointing the finger. Nor is legislating it away. It was mentioned it takes generations for attitudes to change. And on both sides, there have been great changes. However, no matter how much the attitudes in white people have changed, we collectively are still seen as oppressors. It's that lumping I take great issue with. I'll stand side by side and call a racist pig a racist pig. But I reject the notion that I am an oppressor, just because of what skin color I was born with. Does that make it clearer?

corysub -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:19:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver General point after reading the thread. It is quite obvious that all the black people abandoned after Katrina are typical feckless black low life who got what they deserved because they have no drive, no ambition and are happy wallowing in self pity. It is quite clear blacks were never enslaved, exploited, brutalized and consigned to ghettoes to rot. Blacks are just too stupid or too lazy to take their life chances that the good old US of A has given them. Or maybe its just racism is alive and well after all. After reading this thread, its obviously the latter. Re: Katrina Please inform us how the "black people" were abandoned after Katrina. People were given shelters, people were sent upstate and to Texas and put into motels, where some are still living....People were given $2,000 cash cards to spend as they wished...good and services off all types were provided by charitable and religious organization..withhout race ever being a consideration. Look at the total devastation in Galveston, Cedar Rapids and other flooded areas today....why is it you don't see the whining, the CNN camera's 24/7 on the plight of these devasted people..of every race. Could it be that maybe people went out with saws and cleaned their roads so relief trucks could get through...that people worked and shared what was left with neighbors...and didn't wait for the government cheese to show up. Homes lost by Katrina, by Ike by a tornado or flood are still homes lost and people should be helped withhout the damn constant reference to race. Blacks were "consigned" to ghetto's: Seems to me that where I grew up in New York black could live anywhere they wanted to live. Were there black Ghetto's like BedSty..of course... but there were also Irish Ghetto's on the river, Italian Ghetto's in East New York and South Brooklyn, Jewish Ghetto's in the Bronx and lower Manhattan. Everyone had the opportunity to work hard, get an education and move on! It's that opportunity to move up the ladder and live individual dreams that have 15,000,000 spanish speaking people coming across our border by any means possible. Blacks are too stupid: Gimme a break. We have a black man at the head of the Democrat ticket, we have a black man on the Supreme Court, We have a black woman Secretary of State (The second in succession), we have numerous representatives and senators in Congress..State Governor's, mayors of our major cities, and on and on... Where does this notion come from that black people are stupid. I think people who look back on the old democrat party talking points that try to divide our people into neat little groups and than have these groups fight each other...is the most cancerous politics our country is facing today. Is there racism...absolutely. From KKK rednecks to Jerimiah Wright...there is racism to be found in every race in the world. Among ethnic, religious and tribes there is hatred. Among Italians the people from Naples hate the people from Sicily,Irish protestants killed irish catholics and vice versa, jews from eastern europe looked down on jews from Russia, among black friends of mine there is racism of a sort against black skinned people and light skinned blacks. and on and on and on...and it will be that way forever. However, there is no country on earth where any group here could do any better any where else on earth. If anyone thinks so...let me know...let us all know.

SilverMark -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:23:11 AM)
hoodie, you highlighted the question but, didn't answer it. To simply say that the education system is broken is to a degree a misnomer. There are fine public schools throughout America but, funding is based for the most part on property taxes. Do the math, if the area you live in is more affluent, then your schools are normally better. The voucher system fails in the legislature due to the fact that most private schools are religiously affiliated. Blaming the teachers is the easy way out, to blame any association of teachers is even easier it's been done and isn't productive. I do agree with you on parental involvement as perhaps the most important part of the educational equation. The facilities you talk of....are they in the inner city of Philadelphia? Pittsburgh? I know they aren't in the inner city of Atlanta. My point was and remains, if given a level playing frield we can all excell no matter the color of our skin.

MrRodgers -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:28:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Its about perception. It sure is. The greatest of all white privileges these days seems to be the privilege of getting trashed six ways from Sunday for anything and everything bad that has ever happened to non-whites somewhere in the world, and having any defense you raise entered into evidence as proof of exactly the sort of attitude that caused it. K. You are right and wrong. Up to the advent of the 20th century is was European whites who assumed the privilege of colonizing mostly brown and black countries. This put in colonial govt., beaurocracies, school sytems, justice and police and an 'orderly' society given that the colonizing (white) forces were 'superior' to the existing black or brown govt. and their societies. A belief in a Darwinistic view of world society that to the victors...go the spoils...it is quite another thing when it comes to 'taking' over whole societies by force. Since then, (later 20th century) yes the old cry of the (white) cold war forces having set down certain societies is growing old as many countries still after 40-50 years of independence...still can't seem to get it right. The current problems The essay speaks to the hypocracy of and double standard that applies to the idea of certain parties who essentially say..."Don't do as I do...do as I say." I wonder which folks (political party) is asking us that ?

kittinSol -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:29:25 AM)
Since nobody 'lumped' you with anybody else, I fail to see where your (and the other posters') indignation is coming from. Cloudboy posted a link to a site that was clearly addressing a very valid point, which is that different standards are held for white people and for those of a different colour - from my observations, the 'white privilege' page made some seriously valid points. You're denying that Palin's daughter would have been judged radically differently had she been from a different ethnic background, are you? Are you refuting that Obama's experience has been questioned when Palin's has been given a free pass in a certain segment of the press? Would Palin herself not be laughed out of this election were she a single black mother with the same 'credentials' she has (i.e. a soft degree obtained after quite a few laborious years)? Has Obama's impressive academic path been dismissed as irrelevant? Does this make it any clearer?

meatcleaver -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:37:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: But they came from self confident vibrant cultures, not cultures that had been destroyed and they weren't or hadn't been slaves. Ah yeah that's right, slavery never existed in Asia. [8\|] I seem to remember China not outlawing the practice until the 20th Century. I also remember a certain Chinese dynasty attempting to destroy the entire culture of the majority, and there also being many huge wars that devestated the entire region. One particular civil war in the mid 19th Century competes with WWII for being the most bloody conflict in history. There is a big difference between being a victim of ones own culture and being subjugated by another. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: Laws aren't the problem or the solution. The problem is attitude and you just have to read this thread and other threads on CM where issues about black people have arisen and you can see the problem they face. I guess we should send everyone to reeducation camps to change their attitude then. Recognizing oneself as part of the problem is taking a step towards solving a problem. It has nothing to do with historical guilt, it has nothing to do with individual guilt, it has to do with trying to do the right thing and being a decent human being. Why don't we have child labour in western society anymore? Why aren't women forced to work in mines anymore because their men folk are too expensive to employ? Simply because as a culture we refuse to accept such attitudes anymore. Removing invisible barriers that block the progress of black people is just another developement on the way to a more just society. Nobody need feel guilty about the state of current society, its a work in progress.

hoodie -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark hoodie, you highlighted the question but, didn't answer it. To simply say that the education system is broken is to a degree a misnomer. There are fine public schools throughout America but, funding is based for the most part on property taxes. Do the math, if the area you live in is more affluent, then your schools are normally better. The voucher system fails in the legislature due to the fact that most private schools are religiously affiliated. Blaming the teachers is the easy way out, to blame any association of teachers is even easier it's been done and isn't productive. I do agree with you on parental involvement as perhaps the most important part of the educational equation. The facilities you talk of....are they in the inner city of Philadelphia? Pittsburgh? I know they aren't in the inner city of Atlanta. My point was and remains, if given a level playing frield we can all excell no matter the color of our skin. True.... as far as property taxes go...however the state also spends plenty of money. Blaming teachers and the union's isn't an easy way out. They are part of the problem. Pennsylvania is the ONLY state in the union that still allows teacher's strikes. And it never fails that teacher's and their unions are holding school children hostage for higher pay. Is something wrong with this picture? I certainly think so when hundreds of thousands of students have their education disrupted for 5 days (the max they can strike) and then the shoddy teaching that comes from Some teachers afterwards when they're back on the job without a contract. No Child Left Behind is a joke. Bush should have never passed that. period. We're teaching them from a test. Here in Pennsylvania... we also have Charter schools and Cyber schools. Who is it lobbying to get the funding stripped from these two entitites? The Pennsylvania teacher's union? Why? Because they ARE showing success among our school children in educating them. I am probably the biggest anti-religon person you can find. I think organized religion is a crutch. That is my opinion. But you know what? For the one year I had to scrimp and save and do without to send my daughter to a Catholic school, the educational measures outweighed the religious aspect. She was challenged. She was becoming academically sound. She learned better study habits. Better socialization among peers. She was excited about school. If we weren't so hung up about religion and could look at the benefit, guess what? Private Schools, Charter Schools, Cyber schools... these are the way to go. Why put ANY roadblock in a child's way to success. Every child in these sorts of environments are on an equal playing field. You say that's what you want. And yet, because a private school happens to teach a religious class, or say a prayer, you cannot overlook that? Besides, in a voucher program, parents would make the decision which private school to send their kid too. And I work in downtown Harrisburg. The way the administration runs is no different than a suburban school. And there isn't a big difference between the two, as far as the educational levels of the graduates.

Mercnbeth -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:54:41 AM)
~ Fast Reply ~ What an interesting study of racism and racial prejudice being conveyed in this thread. Racial prejudice and bias that a Black person requires assistance to achieve the same in their life as anyone. And my personal favorite, the self loathing white person carrying the guilt indoctrinated into them by the agenda driven school system. The agenda? To make sure more and more people project outside themselves for their life and to instead come to rely on a government. It's the way a person can have this opinion and not be able to see the racist ignorance being conveyed. "The point I was making was not that Grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn't. But she is a typical white person..."

hoodie -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 6:58:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Since nobody 'lumped' you with anybody else, I fail to see where your (and the other posters') indignation is coming from. Cloudboy posted a link to a site that was clearly addressing a very valid point, which is that different standards are held for white people and for those of a different colour - from my observations, the 'white privilege' page made some seriously valid points. You're denying that Palin's daughter would have been judged radically differently had she been from a different ethnic background, are you? Are you refuting that Obama's experience has been questioned when Palin's has been given a free pass in a certain segment of the press? Would Palin herself not be laughed out of this election were she a single black mother with the same 'credentials' she has (i.e. a soft degree obtained after quite a few laborious years)? Has Obama's impressive academic path been dismissed as irrelevant? Does this make it any clearer? The lumping didn't come from the OP. I believe it was meatcleaver, but that's neither here nor there. I have not denied Racism exists. Where you're getting that from, I have no idea. However, I don't think it is the same problem it was 50 years ago. What it is NOW... I believe has to do more with a person's wealth and connections than it does their race. And yes I'm refuting that Palin's experience has been given a pass. Any press I've looked at has questioned her to the Nth degree as far as experience goes. And I see that for what it is. Just like Obama's experience. It's all the same game to me. I don't see black or white. I don't see male or female. I don't see Republican or Democrat. I don't harp on "injustice." I seek solution. This piece, in my view, was a hit piece in alot of ways. You look at what the pundits say....and automatically attribute that to anyone who shares their party. That is the problem right there. The talking heads have done more damage to these elections than the candidates themselves. They spew nonsense, most of the time, and it is taken as god's honest truth, no matter your political affiliation. Obama's education. Quite impressive. So who's deemed it irrelevant? Not I. It certainly doesn't qualify him to be President, but it's not irrelevant. Who's said that? I haven't heard a political candidate say it's irrelevant. And as a single mother, if Palin were a single black woman, on the Republican ticket, I'd say she'd have more problems shaking the "race traitor" label than she would anything else. Or are you denying that goes on with black Republicans? The gate swings both ways. And instead of focusing on it swinging just one way.... when people are willing to see how it swings the other, this issue will remain as it always has. Race is the overwhelming factor and that's that.

cloudboy -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 7:00:58 AM)
quote: The essay raises some good points, cloudboy. I would argue that not just race plays into the dynamic of privelege but also class, wealth, ownership of property, money, social status and position. America is not as class based as many other societies but we do have a class structure. That's true. I felt he had some bad examples and some good ones. But the salient point is how perceptions changes based on race, politics, and other factors. I don't operate under the assumption that everyone is treated the same, and I expect the observant eye to find inconsistencies and hypocrisies. How else does one explain the right's sudden embrace of inexperience, family privacy, teen pregnancy, affirmative action, and the gender card? Where did this 180 come from? How can it be explained? Why are responders so dismissive and defensive --- not willing to concede even a single point in the analysis?

Simpleslave101 -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 7:01:22 AM)
DomKen, interesting study. I have no doubt that there is race bias on ALL levels. One thing I have witnessed personally is how non-minority employers are hesitant to hire minorities because of the attitude they bring to the table. They have been snake bit in the past because threats of legal action if they corrected a minority or passed them over for promotion. It is a common attitude within the Federal system that "once you hire one you can't fire them". I can't say that all minorities adhere to this mentality. Many do walk around with a sense of entitlement and know they can throw down the race card. Many non-minorities are aware of this and resent it but keep quiet. All just observations. So when they see a resume that has an African American name (vs a European name?) they may be skittish for various reasons other then a knee jerk racist reaction. I do get tired of hearing "OH its because I am black". Eventually one has to function on his own merit and performance and take responsibility for themselves. If Obama is elected, that will remove one excuse.

OneMoreWaste -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 7:08:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou Asians starting coming to this country during the mid 19th Century. The people that came were not that educated, and they certainly weren't middle class. The amount of discrimination they faced was enormous. Laws were written at both the state and federal level to keep them out of jobs. Whites in this country and others in the West did tell them they were subhuman for generations and viewed them as unintelligent. But they came from self confident vibrant cultures, not cultures that had been destroyed and they weren't or hadn't been slaves. I don't know from cultural vibrancy and the lack and/or impact thereof, but if you look at the history of the Chinese brought to the U.S. to build the railroads in the 19th century... It ain't fucking pretty. It's not quite up there with the enslaved blacks and the Indians, but it's a decent run for third place. Speaking of which... I really wonder what the Indians (Native Americans) think when they hear all this racial-injustice stuff. Talk about the right to be pissed off at Whitey... But I guess they just don't have the numbers (or possibly, the culture)

meatcleaver -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 7:16:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste I don't know from cultural vibrancy and the lack and/or impact thereof, but if you look at the history of the Chinese brought to the U.S. to build the railroads in the 19th century... It ain't fucking pretty. It's not quite up there with the enslaved blacks and the Indians, but it's a decent run for third place. Speaking of which... I really wonder what the Indians (Native Americans) think when they hear all this racial-injustice stuff. Talk about the right to be pissed off at Whitey... But I guess they just don't have the numbers (or possibly, the culture) Well I guess you are right there, they have every right to be pissed off since most were killed off, their cultures destroyed and the remaining consigned to reservations. 2% of the US population doesn't amount to a hill of beans in political terms. If my memory serves me well, I think more Native Americans (10 million or so) of US origin live in Mexico now, having fled there in the 19th century.

hoodie -> RE: White Privilege (9/19/2008 7:17:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: The essay raises some good points, cloudboy. I would argue that not just race plays into the dynamic of privelege but also class, wealth, ownership of property, money, social status and position. America is not as class based as many other societies but we do have a class structure. That's true. I felt he had some bad examples and some good ones. But the salient point is how perceptions changes based on race, politics, and other factors. I don't operate under the assumption that everyone is treated the same, and I expect the observant eye to find inconsistencies and hypocrisies. How else does one explain the right's sudden embrace of inexperience, family privacy, teen pregnancy, affirmative action, and the gender card? Where did this 180 come from? How can it be explained? Why are responders so dismissive and defensive --- not willing to concede even a single point in the analysis? You're asking people to look at why another has done something. Again, there could be many many reasons. But to say it is because of race, when you don't know that is an out and out falsehood. Since when have speculation and innuendo become fact? Can we say without a shadow of a doubt that Hillary received 18 million votes because she's a woman? No, we can't. And yet she got them. My point is that there is nothing, in my view, to concede. Unless you've all got a crystal ball, speculation ISN'T fact. It isn't truth. It's this man's opinion, and since when are opinion's always right? They aren't. To read it and say, yep, that's true. It's only true if what he wrote comes to fruition. It hasn't yet, or at least to what I've seen. But since you want to deal with speculation as fact, let me ask you all a few questions. What IF Bristol Palin were in fact, the daughter of a black woman, and the hit piece was put out that the mother didn't have the 4 month old, but the 17 year old girl did, and mom just covered up for her? What would have been the reaction then? Exactly.... you and I don't know. I think alot of the support for Bristol Palin, and in turn Sarah Palin was born out of that Daily Kos story that Bristol was Trig's mother, not Sarah. Right or wrong, I am not one to decide. I think another reason Bristol is seen as "courageous" is because she isn't going to terminate the pregnancy. Right or wrong, I cannot decide. So let's look at ALL of the factors. I can only speak for myself. I find no inherent racism in the treatment of Bristol, over any other pregnant black 17 year old, because there HASN'T been a pregnant black 17 year old in this kind of limelight before, that I'm aware of. Likewise, some of the same people who've called Bristol courageous, have also called Felecia (god forgive me I can't remember her last name), the American Idol winner, courageous for being a single mother and still following her dreams. The attitudes are there. Would you be willing to highlight and concede that the situation ISN'T as dire as Mr. Wise is trying to make it out to be, and that just because it is his opinion, it's based not quite on fact, but more on specualtion?

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