Struggling (Full Version)

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LadyAngelika -> Struggling (11/30/2005 4:01:35 PM)

I was chatting with a Domme friend yesterday and she related an incident where a suitor reacted negatively to her because he wasn’t getting/hearing what he wanted. We both agreed that much could be said about the way the men react when faced with something that doesn’t suit them.

I stated that I actually don't mind if a boy struggles with certain things, as long as in the end, he surrenders. Her answer was that she minded the struggle, that she had had that too much in her life and that she really lacked the patience to stand by and wait. Now I’m not starting this thread to critique her or her opinion. I hold this intelligent and classy woman in very high regard. It just got me thinking about the struggle.

Now the relationship I have with my boy is awesome. I would be a liar if I told you that there never is any struggle. Obviously, it is awesome because the struggles are greatly outnumbered by the “everything falling easily into place” times. But nevertheless, there are struggles. Now struggles don’t mean fights. Struggles simply means: “having a hard time with something”.

To be honest, I can’t imagine how a person could go through the process of submitting to someone without a certain amount of struggle. I’ve always been weary of the ones that say “I’ll do anything you say” right away. In fact, I have a theory that those types struggle just as much, it’s just that they bury their struggle deep down inside themselves and they don’t share it.

Now given the choice between someone who communicates their struggle with me and someone who internalises it, I’d take the communicator every time. At least with the communicator, we can go through the struggle together, both learning from the situation and having our relationship grow stronger.

Now perhaps my theory is way off base. Perhaps it is possible to submit without a struggle. Not being a submissive type, I’m in no place to say for sure.

So essentially, I have two questions
- How do you feel about the struggle?
- How do you deal with it?
and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies.

- LA



Oumae -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 4:09:13 PM)

If it is major struggles all the time then I'd reckon we were not suited.

Struggles every now and then tho' are healthy in my view.
It can show they are listening, being realistic, being honest and really thinking it through.

The mental struggles I see in a subs eyes sometimes make that moment of surrender all the more sweet. When "I'm not sure about this or if I can do it" changing to, "I want to for her" or to "yes, I can" can bring a real closeness between me and the sub.

So, I like some struggles. They can be worth the effort on both parts.

Oumae



slavejali -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 4:19:55 PM)

Its hard for me to talk about struggling at a time when im not actually feeling it...but i know i have felt it in the past.

i agree with Oumae's post, if there is struggle all the time, i dont think the partnership is suited.

The times i have felt struggle is usually when my mind is distracted elsewhere other than it being directed at Master...the most common example is when im in work mode..sometimes its hard for me to switch off and i do need Masters help with that. Sometimes its very hard getting out of managerial problem solver taking inititiave role that i have at work.
As far as struggling against his authority within our relationship, i dont experience that, i want to be in the relationship, ive chosen this relationship and i do desire to please him.

i think initial struggles from submissives and slaves could come when they have not yet experienced the happiness that comes from submitting, like their ego hanging on instead of letting go..all part of the process.



fyreredsub -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 4:29:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Its hard for me to talk about struggling at a time when im not actually feeling it...but i know i have felt it in the past.

i agree with Oumae's post, if there is struggle all the time, i dont think the partnership is suited.

The times i have felt struggle is usually when my mind is distracted elsewhere other than it being directed at Master...the most common example is when im in work mode..sometimes its hard for me to switch off and i do need Masters help with that. Sometimes its very hard getting out of managerial problem solver taking inititiave role that i have at work.
As far as struggling against his authority within our relationship, i dont experience that, i want to be in the relationship, ive chosen this relationship and i do desire to please him.

i think initial struggles from submissives and slaves could come when they have not yet experienced the happiness that comes from submitting, like their ego hanging on instead of letting go..all part of the process.

thank you. i had just posted about how does a slave/sub deal w/ changing hats when leaving work and going home to serve.
however, i do have the problem of my ego hanging on too.[8D]



pandoravampire -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 4:33:44 PM)

How do i feel about the struggle?
How do i deal with it?

when i struggle, in situ, i feel not good. I get a little trapped in analysis paralysis. My thoughts racing with internal debate. I feel im letting him down, letting myself down. But its very dependant on situation.
During play, i dont see it as much of a problem. If something is too hard for me to do, i say so. We adjust things, and move around it.

But struggles to submit day in day out in real life, thats a struggle at times:
Struggling to submit when i dont feel i can. Like fiesty days for me, or days when he's being a plonker and wants to Dom anyway. That's hard, really hard. If i can get through the struggle and submit anyway, he is really impressed and pleased, then of course the rewards reinforce things for next time.

Whenever there has been a struggle, we communicate about it. Despite living together as a D/s couple, sometimes when feelings are running high, we are less articulate. So he gets me to write a email to him. I do this in a brain storming fashion, get everything out there so to speak - uncensored. Then we make quality time to go through it, discussing each twist and turn so that we can understand why im struggling, what might help me to submit. Or if its a unreasonable request in the first place like pushing a limit too fast. In which case, we can slow it down.

Im a switch, so being monogamous, submissive is never going to be that easy for me at times. He understands this. Accepts this is a struggle, but as long as im trying, and evidence that, he's wonderful about it.
Sometimes, when im stuggling, a more emphatic didatic domination works. Less leniency is called for. That can help me overcome things too. But he's wise and careful, as this approach on another day, will bring out the Domme in me and its a lose lose situation that will need sorting later anyway.

If life for me is tough, im in a bad space, had 'one of those days', then hey, we are people, and need a break.
D/s is a wonderful part of who we are, but the bottom line is, before i was a sub, i was a mother, sister, employee, boss, daughter, and life bites you on the arse sometimes. If i had a Dom/me who couldnt consider real life's blows as a legitamate force within my submission, then id not be interested in them as a Dom.
For us, D/s is not a fantasy, it is life, with all its ups and downs affecting it.

well that's all a bit tangential, but hey, ive just woken up, Morning all[:D]

sometimes, when i think of how others post, i think, they're like practicing christians, all belief belief belief, dont they ever struggle? But find these tend to be slave types. More than submissives. guess im never gonna get to be a slave[;)] shame [:D]



sudja -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 4:36:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So essentially, I have two questions
- How do you feel about the struggle?
- How do you deal with it?
and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies.



I tend to mostly struggle internally. Not so much about any specific something, but as we just discussed today, sometimes I do not like being human.

That said, She prefers to know than not know, and there really aren't any "struggles" of large proportion. When I have an objection or to, or do not understand something I state it at an appropriate time, in an appropriate manner (except when I'm being all too human ::grin::). That doesn't happen too often, nor does it take too long, and we both know who ultimately "decides" whatever it is.

sudja




LadyCompassion -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 4:58:40 PM)

quote:

So essentially, I have two questions
- How do you feel about the struggle?
- How do you deal with it?


Struggling...I really dislike some struggles. I do not like emotional struggles where trust or deeper feelings are involved. I hate that. That is just painful turmoil for me.
But struggle with pushing limits and such is ok sometimes. Because if there was never any struggle it would not really be that special to overcome a limit.


I deal with struggle through communication. I think communication is the key.



thetammyjo -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 5:39:23 PM)

I'd say that everyone has a hard time with things from time to time. Life itself could be considered one big constant struggle just to live or be or find yourself.

Is this what your friend knew the word struggle meant when you and she were talking?

By using the definition you laid out, I have to agree with others.

Fox and I have had some struggles, our second year I almost ended things because he was too busy with a job and full-time studies and it was affecting his attitude in a way I found a unnecessary and edging on unrewarding way for me. We solved the problem by not renewing that job (RA to pay for his room and board) and moved in with us.

Our third year he struggled with the term "slave" which I am still just the confused the heck out of because for two years he was cool with it, then he got feeling like it was a bad word, and now he feels it is one of many words for what he is in relationship to me. He did a lot of reading this year and lots of crying and lots of just talking with me listening and assuring him that "slave" to me was a huge term that showed great value to me and respect from me.

But these are his internal strugggles primarily and I have my own. We don't have things I would call "struggles" in the relationship design itself or with my right and responsibilities of authority. If we had these sorts of struggles we would not be together. I consider such relationship roles and dynamic struggles to be either a sign you shouldn't be together (beyond a few months of figuring this out) or to be the venue of vanilla relationships.

I am not saying that is true for anyone other than me.




domtimothy46176 -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 6:14:34 PM)

I find toy struggles most with transitioning from the agressive, take-charge attitude required to manage the household efficiently to serving me with grace and aplomb when I return home. I can empathize with how difficult it must be to switch gears and I do what I can to ensure I've provided her the tools she needs to make improvements whenever necessary. As I've said before, I have a great deal of respect for the intestinal fortitude and commitment I've seen displayed by many of those oriented toward the right side of the slash. As long as I see a sincere effort on toy's part to uphold her end of our bargain, I feel duty bound to work with her when she does struggle with her commitment to serve me. I feel it's an investment that pays huge long-term dividends.
Timothy



veronicaofML -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 6:15:09 PM)


To be honest, I can’t imagine how a person could go through the process of submitting to someone without a certain amount of struggle. I’ve always been weary of the ones that say “I’ll do anything you say” right away. In fact, I have a theory that those types struggle just as much, it’s just that they bury their struggle deep down inside themselves and they don’t share it.

LA
==========

to be as honest as i can here, in all fairness, "go through the process of submitting without an amount of struggle"
welllllllllllllll???????????????
"I" fail to SEE any "struggle". !!
what is there TO struggle WITH, FOR or BECAUSE of?????

i have 2 permanent Ms now......my 1st in calif and my 2nd now in wisconsin here.
there is no struggling for me. i just do what i am told as best as i can. i cannot, will not, always understand or believe in what She wants, but i TRY hard to do everything i can.

is there something missing "I" do not see? EXCEPT that romance thing, and the sex and all that....
just doing as i am told,.......there is no struggling.

thanks



GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 7:42:30 PM)

For Me, it depends on the type of struggle. I am with the others regarding emotional struggles. That is very hard, and gets old rather quickly. Other struggles, such as deferring to My wishes regarding how and when certain things are done, are ok, as long as things get done. I don't mind a why, or even a suggestion as to a new or different way. I will consider it. But I am not here to re-arrange My habits to accomodate a boy's personal comfort level.
I tend to look at certain struggles as a challenge to My authority. Doing certain important things without My permission. Ignoring other instructions I may have given for a specific reason, and going off in another direction because it seems a better way. And sometimes, giving certain instructions is just a matter of asserting that authority. As long as it is not harmful or illegal, it is a good way to get the mindset into place.
I agree, communication is very important. I did have a boy who could not spit the words out, or explain his feelings or what he was struggling with. It was a very difficult time.

In answer to veronica's comment:

quote:

to be as honest as i can here, in all fairness, "go through the process of submitting without an amount of struggle"
welllllllllllllll???????????????
"I" fail to SEE any "struggle". !!
what is there TO struggle WITH, FOR or BECAUSE of?????

i have 2 permanent Ms now......my 1st in calif and my 2nd now in wisconsin here.
there is no struggling for me. i just do what i am told as best as i can. i cannot, will not, always understand or believe in what She wants, but i TRY hard to do everything i can.


I am just shooting from the hip here, but you have posted often, and I feel I have a sense of you and your relationship.
You do say that you don't always understand or believe, but you still try hard. If you have no mental or emotional struggle at those times, then you are very lucky. But I have the idea that you are pretty independent, even within the household there, and you are quite content with the layout of your personal situation.
I wonder if you would struggle if you were suddenly severely restricted as to computer time, or other personal time when you can be alone without supervision. Would you accept that sort of supervision, restriction and domination? Or would you pack up and leave? Do you have a need to please this particular Ms., or would you be just as content to begin again, and look for a new place? Are you submitting in the areas where you are perfectly comfortable, and perhaps sigh, but go ahead and complete a chore in *Her* way, even though you think it would be better *your* way, but in the end, it really doesn't affect you on a very personal level? What would happen if and when something did affect you on a more personal level?
These would just be a couple of examples, given your particular relationship, where I would be curious to know if you have thought about whether you would bother to struggle, or if you would just leave because it became too hard?
This is a very sincere question on My part. I am not trying to give you a hard time. I would really like to know.



Wildfleurs -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 7:50:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Now perhaps my theory is way off base. Perhaps it is possible to submit without a struggle. Not being a submissive type, I’m in no place to say for sure.

So essentially, I have two questions
- How do you feel about the struggle?
- How do you deal with it?
and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies.

- LA



To me submission is an ongoing process. Its not a one day I decided to be his and all of a sudden I submitted and bam. To me its a journey that never ends and does always involve struggle. I think the struggle has definitely lessened and typically only happens over the big things, but it still happens. And I view it as being part and parcel as constantly aligning and adjusting to his will, and so long as he is doing what he wants then I'll be adjusting and trying to keep up.

C~



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 7:55:40 PM)

I have always said that I believe in power exchange, not power struggle. I don't want to have to fight for it every second, and get challenged on every turn. I expect that there will be questions and difficulties---and I admire a man for speaking up about them. It's when the struggling overcomes everything else that I just can't take it. All fight means the relationship is not a match, OR that the other person just lives for the fight. I do not live for the conflict, in any arena. Those days are long gone for me, and I don't welcome them back.

It takes balls to serve me, and I'm not interested in someone who will just repeat my orders mindlessly. Being open about problems---and even recognizing that a problem exists---shows a lot of self awareness, and is a chance for bonding.

F



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 7:59:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
So essentially, I have two questions
- How do you feel about the struggle?
- How do you deal with it?
and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies.

- LA


I'm a lot like you- I accept and even expect struggly in certain ways.

But if he's agreed to it, then he's doing to do it, unless he's got VERY good reasoning to the contrary.

There comes a point of reasonability. I don't like heming and hawing, I don't like stall tactics and I don't like trying to make me force my hand on you.

Struggling within and working through issues is something real and understandable. The rest is just a struggle for power- and not allowed without asking permission first. :)



PatentLeatherMdm -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 8:19:52 PM)

As with every relationship be it D/s or vanilla there are always negotiations involved. The degree of variance within the D/s relationships are limitless as we each approach it through our own humanity mixed with our individual concepts of what is "ideal". Perhaps we ass-u-me that submissives and slaves come to us without limits, and then meet a bevy of applicants along the way -- each of whom has an approach to how they which to serve. The merging of ideas for both Dominant and submissive requires like any relationship the room for some negotiation. I have some hard and fast musts and I present these up front; since the submissive's role is of service to Me, he must either accept them without hesitation or find a Domme that is more suitable for his vision of what service should be. I find that establishing these baselines up front leaves for little if any misunderstanding later down the road. And, as a submissive/slave has gained rapport, respect, trust and admiration for his Mistress, some barriers to service naturally fall away.



MistressYlwa -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 8:47:57 PM)

Without some struggles, how does someone grow? At the end of the struggle is the appreciation of the situation and growth. I say this, in the context of personal struggles. Physical struggles are something else entirely and I have no answer. Life is what it is. We work hard, do our best, and hope that what we accomplish is fulfilling.

Mistress Ylwa


You see what power is - holding someone elses fear in your hand and showing it to them! - Amy Tan



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 9:04:36 PM)

quote:

But if he's agreed to it, then he's doing to do it, unless he's got VERY good reasoning to the contrary.

There comes a point of reasonability. I don't like heming and hawing, I don't like stall tactics and I don't like trying to make me force my hand on you.
Well EM has answered my sentiments on this, but I will elaborate a little and try to answer your questions:
quote:

LadyAngelika
To be honest, I can’t imagine how a person could go through the process of submitting to someone without a certain amount of struggle. I’ve always been weary of the ones that say “I’ll do anything you say” right away. In fact, I have a theory that those types struggle just as much, it’s just that they bury their struggle deep down inside themselves and they don’t share it
With this I can agree, that no one should "just submit to just anyone." I think it takes time to get to know someone and determine whether or not one can/should submit to him or her. It is my postition that if you two have reached a point where you are intimately playing, and the dom is determining what you should wear, what you should eat, and who'll be hurting whom, the domination and submission has begun, and in my company, one of us will be submitting, or offering a plausible (like work, parents, children, religious belief, moral/ethical standing) reason why he would/could not.

quote:

Now given the choice between someone who communicates their struggle with me and someone who internalises it, I’d take the communicator every time. At least with the communicator, we can go through the struggle together, both learning from the situation and having our relationship grow stronger
I love communicators too, unless he will talk about anything under the sun, except emotions/feelings. I cannot stand voicing something I'm displeased with, and being made to wait a week before a response, because he disagrees or hates conflict. I don't like conflict either, but hate faking enjoying someone even more, especially if we're talking about someone I'm dating/playing with.

quote:

Now perhaps my theory is way off base. Perhaps it is possible to submit without a struggle. Not being a submissive type, I’m in no place to say for sure
I don't know if it is or it isn't, but the reason I approach initial encounters like vanilla dates is to give him a chance to get to know me without any expectation, and determine whether he can go there... We only move forward if he keeps coming back to get to know me, and play with me.

quote:

- How do you feel about the struggle?
and I’d love to hear perspectives from people with both dominant and submissive tendencies
I hate the struggle. A little of it on occasion I can understand, and I think myself very patient, kind and considerate of someone who is emotionally honest and open with whatever is on his mind. I don't like feeling wonderfully connected when we're together or playing, and completely disconnected and independent when we aren't together or playing.
quote:

- How do you deal with it?
This is the most important question: on these boards, I have always said, I dispose of incompatible D/s relationships. The more honest answer, really is "it depends." When someone approaches me at collarme as a submissive, I talk to them enough to understand we've both looked up the meaning of the word, and we talk about our wants/needs/desires. If said person wants to court me, I expect him to be not only a gentleman, but also a submissive when one of us needs to be.
If I meet a guy here, and we run into power struggles, than I ask myself "would I still be dating him if this were vanilla?" If the answer is no, than no submissive, no Ms M; if the answer is yes, I talk to him about my concerns and why we need to change gears, and we continue dating. My experience thus far has been with struggles leading to interruption of relationship, because I look at the total package; if the package is massively lacking in absense of submission, than he's got to go. M



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 9:53:39 PM)

quote:

But these are his internal strugggles primarily and I have my own. We don't have things I would call "struggles" in the relationship design itself or with my right and responsibilities of authority. If we had these sorts of struggles we would not be together. I consider such relationship roles and dynamic struggles to be either a sign you shouldn't be together (beyond a few months of figuring this out) or to be the venue of vanilla relationships.
I'm happy to see so many responses which resonate with me, because i'm not yet massively secure in my role as a domina, and struggle internally as everyone else (if not more). M



veronicaofML -> RE: Struggling (11/30/2005 10:32:04 PM)

I wonder if you would struggle if you were suddenly severely restricted as to computer time, or other personal time when you can be alone without supervision.

******computer time? if You can find something else for me, it may not be any problem. i am allowed 2 hrs of tv a week..
i have no radio.
swince my house chores here are caught up,...i do not really have much else TO do at times except goof off on the computer.
IF someone else was around, instead of BEING alone 90% of my time,..it may be about-the-same as i had in calif...where i was only on the computer a couple hrs at night...and She was home 24/7...

Do you have a need to please this particular Ms., or would you be just as content to begin again, and look for a new place?

********i COULD go elsewhere,....there is no romance...no sex...no entanglements....She has a hubby....i COULD if i WANTED to.



Are you submitting in the areas where you are perfectly comfortable, and perhaps sigh, but go ahead and complete a chore in *Her* way, even though you think it would be better *your* way, but in the end, it really doesn't affect you on a very personal level?
*****ok slow down here.....areas where i am comfy? i am COMFY doing most anything in the house or outside.....
and yes......there are some She wants it Her way but when i show Her an upcoming possible dnager issue---something may break or wear out, etc---i end up doing it my way...but not always no. personal level???? it's ALWAYS personal. everything in my life is personal. especially when i get to say--"i told ya so" after something goes wrong..and no one listened...



These would just be a couple of examples, given your particular relationship, where I would be curious to know if you have thought about whether you would bother to struggle, or if you would just leave because it became too hard?

********the only "hard" was Her hubby, being vanilla, and he is getting used to it now.



This is a very sincere question on My part. I am not trying to give you a hard time. I would really like to know.
GoddessDustyGold
==================
well i hope i answered for ya??????



Rayne58 -> RE: Struggling (12/1/2005 5:17:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressYlwa

Without some struggles, how does someone grow? At the end of the struggle is the appreciation of the situation and growth. I say this, in the context of personal struggles. Physical struggles are something else entirely and I have no answer. Life is what it is. We work hard, do our best, and hope that what we accomplish is fulfilling.

Mistress Ylwa


I struggle with low self esteem, shyness and lack of confidence in social and new situations. The shyness is being worked on daily, with me being naked in front of Master, playing while He watches, and when others are present He allows me to wear a blindfold to help me feel more secure. I have a hard time with any form of humiliation so that has become a hard limit.

Over time I am slowly becoming more at ease with myself and I would say that over the last nearly two years with Master I have never been happier. Even though I trust Him and know He would never hurt me or disrespect me in any way, still I struggle.....I had a really bad day recently, when I was doubting my ability to be a good sub to Him......we talked, and I cried, and He told me that I was all He'd ever wanted in His life and then I cried some more, but happy tears that time[&o]



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