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Child Play - 9/20/2008 9:40:52 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		No, not that kind.

I think that many bdsm "relationships" are based on an adult/adult dynamic. I also think many are based on either a child/child dynamic or a parent/child dynamic. And in fact I think the latter two  are perfectly viable and fun, perhaps more so than that old boring adult/adult thing, especially assuming the goal is not to return to the past, but rather to use that past as a platform for growth. 

And yes I do understand the value of regression, but it seems to me there are very few dominants out there who have a clue as to how to go about it without fucking up their partner, and there is nothing scarier than a  crop wielding wannabe  psychiatrist.  Just Don't.

Is the act of submission sometimes, if not often, based on a need and or desire to return to the safe controlled environment of ones childhood?  I am not a submissive so I can't really say.  Clearly up until a certain point most children are submissive to and  protected by their parents, their teachers etc, and there is a great deal of security in that feeling and perhaps many would equate that security with the feeling of being loved and protected. I would also think that there are people with abuse and neglect in their past with a need for that safe place they never had as children, but of course I have no idea how they feel and would never presume to do so.

Conversely I think that the act of dominance, with its inherent need for control, can be the result of a childhood where he or she had no control and or felt out of control. Again, all children are somewhat submissive and are controlled by others and sometimes feel lost and out of control,  and I think much of becoming an adult is about taking control of one's life, so there is nothing bad or weird or unusual about this. I just wonder if some of us become dominants because we were more affected by that loss of control and or forced submission,  I really don't know, but the rebel in me thinks it is very possible.

I bring this up because I myself, and I think many people into bdsm struggle with the need to balance unconscious Neediness with conscious Need, and I personally think it is good healthy struggle.

No revelations here, just musings.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 10:02:38 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Wow, that is a complex question and I think it will vary by person...possibly by a lot.

For me, there is a part of my psyche and personality that will forever be 9 years old when my mother died.  I can step beck to that place and even today, it is like I am right there in that very traumatic place again.  There was a giant snarl of junk there that I spent a lot of years in counseling to unravel and come to grips with the pain.  Now when I go there, I don't freak anymore, it is just memory and sadness.  There were strong associated feelings of loss of safety and stability, being wanted, and loved and desired.  They strongly shaped who I am today.

Everything is translated through time and experience...today I crave those lost things from my childhood.

So in my version of submission - and granted, it is still new and I am exploring...what I feel is safety, being wanted, and being loved and desired - those things that I felt were lost to me at age 9.  But I don't feel in any way child-like, nor is She in any way like my mother.  Instead, those things are translated through time and experience to positive feelings that simply feed and nourish me as the adult person I am now.

I hope that makes sense. 


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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 11:35:23 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I grew up as an adult my entire life.  From any real ability to remember, I did not have the guidance of any authority figure to the level many children do.  I had to make my own way on things that were far beyond anything I should have been handling at the time.  Needless to say, I made a lot of mistakes along the way.  Some of them I will pay for in some degree for a very long time still, if not the rest of my life.

That being said there was a huge level of control wielded over me about things that didn't matter or were inappropriate to be so involved with at the time.  I was restricted severely in what I wore and how my hair was done, what I ate, where I went, and what I was doing when I was at home.  My bedroom door was never to be locked so that I could be monitored constantly.  It was extreme and felt very much like violation.  It was also what little comfort I got that my parents cared at all, so I did not rebel against it.

As that relates specifically to my current desires in these dynamics, I am hard pressed to give up control.  As much as I enjoy the feeling of letting go, I hold on tightly until I know without a doubt that it is safe and my well being is at hand.  Then comes the soothing structure I did not have along with the restrictions I did have, but in a  consentual and clearly caring context.  Nurture, structure, and security are very provocative for me. 

I have no trouble placing my will upon someone either.  I know how disturbing it felt to have such power imposed against my will, so seek to be given the reigns of another's life.  When I have them, however, I have absolutely no issue with making decisions and acting in ways I believe are beneficial for the person.  The disagreements do not bother me, though I do listen with care to their concerns.  I have learned to respect my charges.  I can only be worthy of being submitted to if I have high regard people in general.

I don't know if I have really answered the query of this thread.  I will be interested to continue to follow it to hear various perspectives.

lovingpet   

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 11:50:30 AM   
scottishdove


Posts: 113
Joined: 7/27/2008
Status: offline 		wonderful musings Slystone.. you are talking about what is really at the core of much of many people's attraction to the lifestyle..whether they are aware of it or not...

very moved by your responses, otterswim and lovingpet

alice

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 11:55:13 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you so much!  I am always glad when someone has been able to take something away from my posts.

lovingpet

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 7:13:09 PM   
WildHoneyPie


Posts: 60
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline 		I had a lovely childhood, caring parents and a stable homelife.  I was encouraged to be expressive and my uniqueness was honored.  I was never spanked or humiliated in any way.

I was devasted to lose my father four years ago to cancer.  I think about him every day and miss him terribly.  Six months ago, I met Daddy here on CM.  I was not looking for a Daddy Dom, but I found him, and everything just kind of clicked into place.  I am married, and my husband is not a strong person.  I have to be the grown up for both of us.  With Daddy, I feel protected and loved in a way that is very similar to how I felt as a child.  I feel as though I don't have to carry the world's weight alone.  Daddy wants me to be a strong person, and helps me to be just that.  But when I feel small and alone, he is there to pick me up and hold me tight. 

It freaks me out sometimes to think about this because I loved my father in an entirely appropriate way.  I never had one deviant thought about him.  The fact that I like my Daddy to spank me and fuck me, etc makes me wonder sometimes about what is up in the deep dark basement of my mind, unexplored and dirty.  And I don't really like to think about it because it sullies the love that I have for my father.

I'm probably a good candidate for therapy!

_____________________________


Daddy´s hands weren´t always gentle
But I´ve come to understand.
There was always love in Daddy´s hands.

----Holly Dunn

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 7:28:19 PM   
ThundersCry


Posts: 892
Status: offline 		Well great Sly...nice to meet ONE of the few dominants who have a CLUE, about those types of dynamics...
 
Do let us all know the next time your having a workshop, teaching on the subject so we can attend and be as smart as you!
 
 

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 7:37:24 PM   
E2Sweet


Posts: 649
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: TopLeftCornerOf, OH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

...Is the act of submission sometimes, if not often, based on a need and or desire to return to the safe controlled environment of ones childhood?...


I don't think this is the case for me. I believe my draw to the s-side comes from being so thoroughly in-control in basically every aspect of my daily life. There really isn't a minute that goes by on most days where I'm not totally and completely in charge of what I'm doing and what I will do next. This also holds true when there's a crisis situation amongst family or friends... As a knee-jerk reaction, I voluntarily step up to lead and immediately start to form my plan... What an exhausting habit to develop. It leaves one out of balance so to speak...

So I think the inkling to experience the s-side, for me, is more about learning how to, and finally getting the chance to, just let go of the reins and let someone else lead for once... and its somehow gone from that concept to turning into a kink thanks to seeing first hand the bliss that can be attained in being the submissive.

I'll agree being under the direction of others, and the relief of certain responsibilities does parallel some of what we experience as little 'uns growing up, but I think for myself, that's all the connection is... simply parallel ideas and concepts between then and now.

Edited for spelling.


< Message edited by E2Sweet -- 9/20/2008 7:39:04 PM >

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 8:04:55 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

... and there is nothing scarier than a  crop wielding wannabe  psychiatrist. 


I just like that line. To your question, well sure, we are all products of our childhood. How much we are affected depends on many things. 

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 9/20/2008 8:05:11 PM >

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 8:09:15 PM   
califsue


Posts: 593
Joined: 2/2/2008
Status: offline 		My Master says he grew up in a very typical household but that he always been a leader and dominant one. I think sometimes it is just inherent in people without having something happen in their life that makes a person one way or the other.
For me, I think part of my need to be submissive and letting someone else have the control is that I had  to grow up fast when my older sister died and left me and my younger sister at home and parents who were no longer able to parent due to dealing with their own grief and fear of losing us. I have had to be in control and make decisions for myself for a long time and still am having to do now that my parents are elderly and being the primary caretaker to them although they are still fairly independent.

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 8:18:16 PM   
caro44


Posts: 270
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I have a question about child play, but I don't want to put the hypothecial info on the board. If someone
would cmail me so I could ask the question privately I would very much appreicate it. This may be the
wrong way to approcah this, if it is I apolize. 

(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 8:53:34 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
I bring this up because I myself, and I think many people into bdsm struggle with the need to balance unconscious Neediness with conscious Need, and I personally think it is good healthy struggle.


I disagree with that phrasing very much, because I think it invalidates acceptable, understandable needs.  By creating a false dichotomy between "good" needs and "bad" neediness, that model invalidates peopel's legitamate feelings.  "If you were stronger/better/more mature you wouldn't be so needy...," but why wouldn't someone who hadn't had their needs met be needy? 

It doesn't take a clinical background to look at my wife, who never had anyone take care of her, and who had a dangerous and chaotic childhood, and figure out that she has come to me to be taken care fo to fill that need.  It's not hard to figure out why a woman who never had a father in her life, and was never cherished and protected, should put her arms around my neck and call me "Daddy."

Not is it any great leap to understand why I, as a person who never felt devoted, singular love, should desire that, and want my little girl to look at my with open eyes see only me.

And just as it isn't difficult to see the need being filled there, it is simple to accept that the need is legitimate and normal.  Why shouldn't a person who was never safe want some fucking safety?

It's incredibly healing, salutory, and fair, to normalize neediness as legitimate need.  Were we go from our space of need may be an area that benefits from evaluation.  How we seek out, actualize and process something like the individuation and developmental progress that is possible after needs are met may be more or less adaptive--perhaps maladaptive.  But the needs aren't wrong or abnormal, and should be normalized.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 8:55:18 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WildHoneyPie

I had a lovely childhood, caring parents and a stable homelife.  I was encouraged to be expressive and my uniqueness was honored.  I was never spanked or humiliated in any way.

I was devasted to lose my father four years ago to cancer.  I think about him every day and miss him terribly.  Six months ago, I met Daddy here on CM.  I was not looking for a Daddy Dom, but I found him, and everything just kind of clicked into place.  I am married, and my husband is not a strong person.  I have to be the grown up for both of us.  With Daddy, I feel protected and loved in a way that is very similar to how I felt as a child.  I feel as though I don't have to carry the world's weight alone.  Daddy wants me to be a strong person, and helps me to be just that.  But when I feel small and alone, he is there to pick me up and hold me tight. 

It freaks me out sometimes to think about this because I loved my father in an entirely appropriate way.  I never had one deviant thought about him.  The fact that I like my Daddy to spank me and fuck me, etc makes me wonder sometimes about what is up in the deep dark basement of my mind, unexplored and dirty.  And I don't really like to think about it because it sullies the love that I have for my father.

I'm probably a good candidate for therapy!


Or maybe you have needs and are meeting those needs.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to WildHoneyPie)
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RE: Child Play - 9/20/2008 9:43:03 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Makes sense to me - considering a strong basis of the dynamics could easily be found in Berne's TA.

And what... ? Faramir? Is it you? Welcome back!!!

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RE: Child Play - 9/21/2008 6:25:45 AM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

 

Is the act of submission sometimes, if not often, based on a need and or desire to return to the safe controlled environment of ones childhood? 

 
not for me, but then again, submission isn't an act.
 
quote:

Conversely I think that the act of dominance, with its inherent need for control, can be the result of a childhood where he or she had no control and or felt out of control.
 
if they're acting dominant, then i could see how you would assume such to be true.

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RE: Child Play - 9/21/2008 8:42:20 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

There was a giant snarl of junk there that I spent a lot of years in counseling to unravel and come to grips with the pain.   But I don't feel in any way child-like, nor is She in any way like my mother.



I get that, and in no way do I think these dynamics are literally parent/child, or child/child or whatever, in fact
fuck the labels, but they do make the attempted point so much easier :)

Seems to me that as a result of your childhood you understand that you have certain needs and you are learning how to fulfill them as an adult, in other words how to be happy. That is a good thing, a great thing. Would you say that without the self examination you seem to have done you would be able to meet and or control those needs?  Thanks for your comments.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to OttersSwim)
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RE: Child Play - 9/21/2008 8:44:46 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

Nurture, structure, and security are very provocative for me.



Very interesting :)  For you, and correct me if  I am wrong, the security gained through trust is as stimulating and necessary as the structure and nurturing. I wonder is this true of most  here or is it unique to those with something missing in their childhood? It really doesn't matter cause it works for you, just pondering. Very nice post, thanks for responding.



_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

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RE: Child Play - 9/21/2008 8:46:52 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

t freaks me out sometimes to think about this because I loved my father in an entirely appropriate way.



I am no expert but I will say that in my opinion one thing has literally nothing to do with the other, because you understand the difference. I also see nothing wrong with returning to feelings you had as a child as long as you don't get lost in those feelings. I would think it would be great to use those safe feelings as a platform from which to grow as an adult. Just my opinion and thanks for your response.



_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

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RE: Child Play - 9/21/2008 8:48:17 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Psychological deconstruction should be done on an individual basis, not in a blanket assessment.

A D/s lifestyle is just one of a multitude of means by which natural tendency towards dominance and/or submission can be manifested in one's life.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: Child Play - 9/21/2008 8:56:04 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

I disagree with that phrasing very much, because I think it invalidates acceptable, understandable needs. By creating a false dichotomy between "good" needs and "bad" neediness, that model invalidates peopel's legitamate feelings.



I am not sure why it is a false dichotomy especially if you include the words conscious and unconscious. My only
point was that I think there  we are driven by both conscious and unconscious emotional need. I personally struggle with differentiating between the two, especially in terms of bdsm, because I think it goes to motivation and I think it is important to know why I am here. It may not be for others, it is for me.

I think that in the case of emotional expression, and these are just my thoughts and may be completely wrong,
unconscious neediness,  is something we have little or no control over, as in he or she is a needy person and there is an empty hole there that can never be filled. I have been in relationships with extremely unconsciously needy people and it
was no fun. 

Rather I would think it to be far more healthy to attempt to look at what my needs are, where do they come from, and be conciousely aware that  I have certain needs ( assuming these needs bring no harm to others ) and through x and y I can meet them and in so doing become more. That way one has control over ones destiny, cause knowledge is power for sure.

I am not saying people need to agonize about what brings them to these needs or even be very self reflective
about it, just that for me personally, unconsciousness neediness can be self destructive and ultimately not fulfilling,
whereas conscious need is a natural state of being, and when people are aware of that they will by much happier.

"But the needs aren't wrong or abnormal, and should be normalized."

I am in no way judging anyone's needs here or in any way saying what is normal and what is not. Thanks for your comments.



_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to Faramir)
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