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The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/20/2008 12:07:24 PM   
Vendaval


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Good day to all CM peoples,
 
If you are like the majority, the past week of financial crisis on Wall Street was both troubling and rather difficult to understand.  I have been reading through newspapers and watching PBS to get a better understanding on what the hell happened and how everyday people will be affected in their families and communities.
 
Please offer you own suggestions for reading material or newscasts, blogs, etc for better understanding of this economic crisis.
 
Here are some of my suggestions -
 
Washington Week with Gwen Ifill & National Journal
 
You can read the transcript, watch the video or podcast
for Friday, September 19.
 
http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/


Bill Moyers Journal.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html
 

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/20/2008 12:19:21 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Read this explanation for 3 of the 5 largest trading firms going tits-up:
http://www.nysun.com/business/ex-sec-official-blames-agency-for-blow-up/86130/
This was George Bush.

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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/20/2008 2:48:35 PM   
DesFIP


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Those of you who say fuck Wall Street, I would like to inform you that over 20% of New York State's revenues come directly from  Wall Street. A significant proportion of Northern New Jersey families and southern Connecticut families, and thus the towns they live in, are supported by Wall Street earnings.

Someone who supports herself cleaning houses in Fairfield CT would be on the street if Wall Street crashes. Basically for those of us in the tristate region, everything depends on the health of the stock market.

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/20/2008 3:34:24 PM   
NumberSix


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Since dividends and whatnot went out, will the US Government create a taxable event regardless of current profit and loss, and don't Many State county and other government employees also have these sort of funds (and many 401ks and whatnot)  is this a raiding cash grab?

*nb: regards AIG, et al.

6


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"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/20/2008 3:54:11 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Those of you who say fuck Wall Street, I would like to inform you that over 20% of New York State's revenues come directly from  Wall Street. A significant proportion of Northern New Jersey families and southern Connecticut families, and thus the towns they live in, are supported by Wall Street earnings.

Someone who supports herself cleaning houses in Fairfield CT would be on the street if Wall Street crashes. Basically for those of us in the tristate region, everything depends on the health of the stock market.

It is only a matter of coincidence. Everybody...EVERYBODY working for wall street would be working somwhere else if IT didn't exist. This is the age old canard of how so deliciously dependent we are supposed to be upon these masters of the financial universe.

ALL industries WANT you to believe they are owed a deregulated and unfettered environment...an assortment of govt. favors not to JUST make a profit but to speculate and operate as they want...because of all those jobs they create. 

It is unimitigted bullshit. Example: How is it that the folks you mention are still working while soon wall street wil hit 2 million jobs lost since 1/07 ?

When a factory that closes and moves operations to China...none of this seems to matter...they move and all those working there can find another job. Whole towns become a ghost town the largest of which going that way is Detroit. None of those jobs seemed to matter.

To try to answer the OP: I'll answer...
What's happened on wall street is the best example so far of the whole concept that we are NOT and have not been living in a free enterprise capitalism. If by now people don't realize that we live in a socialism and the 'socialism' is of the investor class NOT society. The 'people' will never fix this. Rather then OWN the means of productions...we will OWN nothing...be forever in debt and assume the risks while the capitalists make the money.

What all of this means is that these unregulated greedy, capitalist scum become so financially interwined, borrow BILLIONS and billions of dollars (leverage) to make a huge profit trading paper (speculate)...call them mortgaged securities, insurance policies, CDO's (Collaterized Debt Obligations) or whatever name you'd like to come with and when their house of cards blow over...the TAXPAYER...the 'social' part of this equation bails them out.

In the future...those 'everyday' people will get up in the morning and go to work not only to survive but pay a whole new huge tax rate to pay for all of this. I see journyman trades workers making $50/hr and taking home 20. THEY have already legally cut down on overtime and made it more difficult for YOU to decalre bankcrupty. You begin to see how this works...hey ?

Those 'not-so-everyday' people, i.e....traders on wall street will still make their $millions in salary...billions in bonuses...check on their latest earnings from the golf course at noon...where all there is, is lunch and others have jobs. Or just chill'n on that $100 million yacht they now can't trade in on the fancy new $300 million beauty.

Does that help you understand ?

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/20/2008 5:10:39 PM   
pahunkboy


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aside from anger and outrage,

what can a peon like me DOOOOOOOOOOOO   to CYA,  as this process unfolds ????


What action,can I take to look after my best interest?

I posted about "telling" the bank my interest rate is now reduced.  In the early 1900s when this happened people rose up and marched....it got ugly.

the bankers dont want to reduce the payments- they made a concession that  they would to people with 2nd homes.

But then- since there is no sanity to the grid- why should anyone pay the housenote  ?

I was thinking there should be some type of civil disobendiance  on Wall Street

But then- when I was watering my garden- I seen a 2 feet maple tree is no longer there.  POOF- some one  removed it.


Which brings me back to the Q.    

ME ME ME ME MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

CYA

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/20/2008 11:16:45 PM   
TheUtopian


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Exceptional post, brother --- And right on the money.

Here's what I say : Find me a potential candidate who will make a solemn promise to the people that not single cabinet level appointee or department head will ever come from/ or have worked for Goldman-Sachs, Citibank or Barclay's {Or any other Wall Street firm} and I'll vote for them.


Here's another great article from Patrick J.

quote:

The Party's Over

By Patrick J. Buchanan

19/09/08 "CS" -- - The Crash of 2008, which is now wiping out trillions of dollars of our people's wealth, is, like the Crash of 1929, likely to mark the end of one era and the onset of another.



The new era will see a more sober and much diminished America. The "Omnipower" and "Indispensable Nation" we heard about in all the hubris and braggadocio following our Cold War victory is history.
Seizing on the crisis, the left says we are witnessing the failure of market economics, a failure of conservatism.

This is nonsense. What we are witnessing is the collapse of Gordon Gecko ("Greed Is Good!") capitalism. What we are witnessing is what happens to a prodigal nation that ignores history, and forgets and abandons the philosophy and principles that made it great.



A true conservative cherishes prudence and believes in fiscal responsibility, balanced budgets and a self-reliant republic. He believes in saving for retirement and a rainy day, in deferred gratification, in not buying on credit what you cannot afford, in living within your means.



Is that really what got Wall Street and us into this mess — that we followed too religiously the gospel of Robert Taft and Russell Kirk?
"Government must save us!" cries the left, as ever. Yet, who got us into this mess if not the government — the Fed with its easy money, Bush with his profligate spending, and Congress and the SEC by liberating Wall Street and failing to step in and stop the drunken orgy?


For years, we Americans have spent more than we earned. We save nothing. Credit card debt, consumer debt, auto debt, mortgage debt, corporate debt — all are at record levels. And with pensions and savings being wiped out, much of that debt will never be repaid.



Our standard of living is inevitably going to fall. For foreigners will not forever buy our bonds or lend us more money if they rightly fear that they will be paid back, if at all, in cheaper dollars.
We are going to have to learn to live again without our means. The party's over

Up through World War II, we followed the Hamiltonian idea that America must remain economically independent of the world in order to remain politically independent.

But this generation decided that was yesterday's bromide and we must march bravely forward into a Global Economy, where we all depend on one another. American companies morphed into "global companies" and moved plants and factories to Mexico, Asia, China and India, and we began buying more cheaply from abroad what we used to make at home: shoes, clothes, bikes, cars, radios, TVs, planes, computers.

As the trade deficits began inexorably to rise to 6 percent of GDP, we began vast borrowing from abroad to continue buying from abroad. At home, propelled by tax cuts, war in Iraq and an explosion in social spending, surpluses vanished and deficits reappeared and began to rise. The dollar began to sink, and gold began to soar.
Yet, still, the promises of the politicians come. Barack Obama will give us national health insurance and tax cuts for all but that 2 percent of the nation that already carries 50 percent of the federal income tax load. John McCain is going to cut taxes, expand the military, move NATO into Georgia and Ukraine, confront Russia and force Iran to stop enriching uranium or "bomb, bomb, bomb," with Joe Lieberman as wartime consigliere. Who are we kidding?
What we are witnessing today is how empires end. The Last Superpower is unable to defend its borders, protect its currency, win its wars or balance its budget. Medicare and Social Security are headed for the cliff with unfunded liabilities in the tens of trillions of dollars.
What we are witnessing today is nothing less than a Katrina-like failure of government, of our political class, and of democracy itself, casting a cloud over the viability and longevity of the system. Notice who is managing the crisis. Not our elected leaders. Nancy Pelosi says she had nothing to do with it. Congress is paralyzed and heading home. President Bush is nowhere to be seen.

Hank Paulson of Goldman Sachs and Ben Bernanke of the Fed chose to bail out Bear Sterns but let Lehman go under. They decided to nationalize Fannie and Freddie at a cost to taxpayers of hundreds of billions, putting the U.S. government behind $5 trillion in mortgages. They decided to buy AIG with $85 billion rather than see the insurance giant sink beneath the waves.

An unelected financial elite is now entrusted with the assignment of getting us out of a disaster into which an unelected financial elite plunged the nation. We are just spectators.

What the Greatest Generation handed down to us — the richest, most powerful, most self-sufficient republic in history, with the highest standard of living any nation had ever achieved — the baby boomers, oblivious and self-indulgent to the end, have frittered away.


< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 9/20/2008 11:28:05 PM >


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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 1:12:46 AM   
Vendaval


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Do you have a link for that op-ed piece, Ranger?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 3:58:35 AM   
PrincessJ77


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I'm lucky my mortgage is just about paid off (worth it for the 15 years of it), I'm car pooling and I don't use credit cards anymore. 

This too shall pass, I hope.   I know too many people in the financial industry, they aren't very optimistic, tho.

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 4:40:11 AM   
pahunkboy


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America had turned its back on  the New Testament.

Our temple is Wall Street.

We worship money.

More people ought to abide by Jesuses teachings.

As well as follow neither a lender or borrower be.

There is a bright side.     Being broke has a humbling effect.


The nation needs a dose of "humble".

We- the commen man- have been traded for 30 pieces of silver

Maybe more people will get back to their Christian roots.  THAT is what is needed.
The fruit looks appealing on the outside- but is bitter on the inside

The good news is we will have a Christmas WITHOUT the over consumption.

Debt is slavery.            The  worship on money is dead.      The light of Jesus is with us!

Praise the lord.  


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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 5:36:35 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

America had turned its back on  the New Testament.

Our temple is Wall Street.

We worship money.

More people ought to abide by Jesuses teachings.

As well as follow neither a lender or borrower be.

There is a bright side.     Being broke has a humbling effect.

The nation needs a dose of "humble".

We- the commen man- have been traded for 30 pieces of silver

Maybe more people will get back to their Christian roots.  THAT is what is needed.
The fruit looks appealing on the outside- but is bitter on the inside

The good news is we will have a Christmas WITHOUT the over consumption.

Debt is slavery.            The  worship on money is dead.      The light of Jesus is with us!

Praise the lord.  



1. Voluntary vows of poverty show a changed heart. Involuntary ones will not produce a change of heart.

2. I assume that your reference to the New Testament instead of the Bible is an implication that the Old Testament does not address greed.  Not true. While Jesus booting the moneychangers from the temple provides a nice visual, the Ten Commandments specifically prohibits worship of anything except G_d.  The point is driven home when Moses flies into a rage when he sees the Hebrews worshipping a golden calf (i.e., materialism).


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 6:06:17 AM   
UncleNasty


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There were three sets of commandments, only one of which was identified as the "Ten Commandments."

The first time Moses came down from Mount Sinai with commandments, he merely recited a list (Exodus 20:2-17), which is the version most churches today erroneously call the "Ten Commandments," although they were not engraved on stone tablets and not called the "ten commandments."

The first set of stone tablets was given to Moses at a subsequent trip up the mountain (Exodus 31:18). In this farcical story, Moses petulantly destroyed those when he saw the people worshipping the golden calf (Exodus 32:19).

So he went back for a replacement. God told Moses: "Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest." (Exodus 34:1) 

A read of what was on the replacement tablets (Exodus 34:14-26), those specifically identified as the "Ten Commandments," is radically different from what churches and Christians erroneously assume is the Ten Commandments.

If you're going to quote the Bible it is important, I think, to know what the Bible really says.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 6:28:53 AM   
Sundowner


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The details are complex; the overview is relatively simple. And relevant to the UK and the US both.

In essence the cause has been people being greedy for success - not just the big Wall Street and City firms but also the goverments and the consumers. Everyone wanted to succeed and, unfortunately, they measured success in what some people feel is the wrong way, by reference to profits, economic volume and possessions.

And everyone - institutions, governments, consumers - began more and more to bend the rules and to lose sight of sensible prudent guidelines in pushing for more and more success.

Simple example - I bet it happened in the US but an example based on the UK - our big bank HBOS for years pushed consumers to borrow and borrow and borrow; credit cards for kids, bigger mortgage loans, anything to push people to borrow. Endless TV adverts, junk mailshots, relentless pressure to persuade people to borrow. And, crucially, to borrow without much concern for whether this was prudent and, crucially, finding the money to lend by going to the moneymarkets. As HBOS saw it this activity meant success. As housebuyers saw it, buying the expensive house meant success. As consumers saw it, buying the latest fashions or bigger TV meant success.

Easier supply of mortgage money encourages higher house prices, easier credit card balances encourage high street spending and, for poorer people, higher debt. As a generalisation everyone, rich and poor, has spent more than they should on easy credit and everyone, institutions and governments, has encouraged them by enabling excess credit.

Pretty easy, if you're not financially sophisticated, to overlook the potential problems. Pretty easy, if you're not financially ethical, to overlook the potential problems. Pretty easy, if you're politically ruthless (especially if you're not financially sophisticated or ethically motivated) to overlook the potential problems. And hey - if all your peers admire you for your success, however that's measured, then surely you must be doing something right.

Those who might have put the brakes on - perhaps spiritual leaders, or older more experienced financiers or politicians, or simply people who value inner peace and happiness more than material success - these people have little influence in our complex modern society.  

So the shit has hit the fan, it's been judged too scary to let market forces harm consumers and so government has supported "greedy" and imprudent financial firms in order to ease consumers' pain. Many people will suffer - jobs lost, holidays curtailed, house purchases deferred - many of the people who value material things will be deeply unhappy. One or two who get this out of proportion will kill themselves but generally few people will die. More perceived poverty will lead to more unhappiness and envy, crime will increase somewhat, civil unrest will increase somewhat (watch out for the nastiness on our streets if next summer is a hot one).

But it's not the end of the world; it's not as scary as losing the people in the Twin Towers, or losing those drowned in the tsunami or those buried in earthquakes.

Give it a couple of years and we'll all be off again, chasing what we define as success. Give it ten years and most people will be thinking their success achievements will go on for ever until, maybe around ten or fifteen years from now, things go differently pear-shaped all over again.

Best plan as far as I can see is for us not to worry about recession but to focus on the far more important problem of understanding the difference between a sub and a slave and what weally does twue mean and why don't newbies get it? 






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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 6:34:22 AM   
NumberSix


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Send lawyers, guns, and money;
Dad--- The shit has hit the fan.........

Warren Zevon

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 7:30:24 AM   
OneMoreWaste


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Making sense of it? Sure:

Guys, wearing watches that cost more than your car, wagered eight- and nine-figure sums of other people's money on complicated financial shell games that you don't understand; now they have Learjets, your retirement fund is empty, and your taxes are going up.

Oh: and it's not over yet.

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 7:44:29 AM   
bipolarber


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Once upon a time...

1. A bad king wanted his people to be in great debt, so he ordained that all should have a chance at owning their own hovel.

2. Evil, greedy men took his edict and, drunk with freedom to lie and be false, told the people, "Yes, you can have a hovel, just like your nighbor. We will use a magic spell, called "sub-prime." And so, hundreds of thousands of people were put into hovels.

3. Everything was great, so long as the price of hovels continued to increase. The evil, greedy men sold off their sub prime loans to investment firms, making sure that none of that debt remained under their roof.

4. Some of the magical sub-primes began to default, since the people in those hovels couldn't really pay for them... especially when unemployment came to their doors.

5. The bad king ignored their pleas for help.

6. The magic spell was broken, and the Earth opened up and began swallowing the people, sucking them from their homes, dragging them into hell far below.

7. Then, hell, being unsatified, began licking at the heels of the investment banks, whose cashflow fromt he sub-prime magic they depended on for health. Several good, worthy dukedoms of finance were swallowed by the monsters of hell.

8. The bad king, realizing that letting hell continue to feed would hurt him, and others in his "upper income kingdom" decided to do something. He would close the rift in the earth, by plugging it with gold.

9.And so he did. He opened the whole of the treasury upon the rift, and yea, it was plugged (for the time being) Now all he had to do was refill the treasury, so he looked upon his people, and said, "This is going to be your problem, I'm out of here in 45 days."

And the people lived in misery and anguish ever after.


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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 7:51:17 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
It is only a matter of coincidence. Everybody...EVERYBODY working for wall street would be working somwhere else if IT didn't exist. This is the age old canard of how so deliciously dependent we are supposed to be upon these masters of the financial universe.


Yup.  It's at least hypocritical to whine about losing jobs on Wall Street when one of the reasons that Wall Street has gotten so rich and created so many jobs around it is that it has pressured so many companies to increase profits by cutting payroll costs, eliminating staff, and moving good-paying jobs offshore.  Any company that announces a big layoff is going to get some bad press, but they're also going to see a good bump in their stock.  As for the surrounding communities, they're experiencing what a lot of other communities have gone through. To some extent, their booming economies came at other communities' expense, so it's kind of hard to feel too bad for them now that they're no longer booming.

quote:

If by now people don't realize that we live in a socialism and the 'socialism' is of the investor class NOT society.


A lot of the talking heads are saying that we have "privatized the profits and socialized the risks" of our financial markets.  THat seems to be the catchphrase of the day.  They're absolutely right.  All this money went somewhere.  There are people out there who had a hell of a party, now we're picking up the tab.  That's an old and overused analogy, I know, but it is really fitting.  This socialization of risks has not extended to the folks on the bottom half of our economic ladder.  They're pretty much taking it in the shorts.  I could go on and on about it, but I won't. 

I think that we can do something about it, and that we will, but I'm not hopeful that it will be enough or soon.  If we have the will to put some reasonable regulations on the financial industry - something pretty much everyone is suggesting - its excesses can be curbed and it can get back into its proper role in our economy of facilitating trade and investment.  The limiting factor in finding a real solution is that it's going to have to be not just bipartisan but non-political, and be managed and overseen by people without vested interests.  Try pulling that off in today's political climate.   I suspect that what we'll see is a bunch of short term solutions that don't really address the fundamental problems.

Personally, I guess I'm just going to hunker down.  I'm one of those fortunate few with real job security, benefits that are at least reasonalby secure, and a reasonable income, so we'll be okay.  My daughter's in college and doing well, so I don't have to worry about her (over the long term, anyway - we're all getting used to being broke now to get her through).  I haven't really been directly affected much by the Wall Street madness because I don't own property or have a mortgage and don't have a lot of money invested and it's mostly in rather non-risky, lower-yield kind of stuff.  I may have less when I retire, but frankly I was kind of figuring that would be the case one way or another.  I'm trusting that within the next 15 years we'll get health care and social security figured out, because that's about all I can do.  If we do, I'm okay.  If we don't, I don't have the income to put away enough by then to make much difference unless I want to cut out everything that's any fun in my life and that wouldn't make that big a difference (we're cheap dates), so I see no point in worrying about it.  In the mean time, I'm going to pay off my debts and invest in things that will cut down on my monthly bills and put some away, and continue to have a good time.  My kid isn't expecting to get anything when I kick.  That makes it easier.

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 7:55:04 AM   
cloudboy


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Taking down the firewall between brokerage houses and investment banking back in 1980 has played a role.

Also, the Bush practice of letting the foxes guard henhouses combined with an anti-goverment, non regulatory bias probably contributed.

Lastly, lenders being able to pass the risks off to others minimized their incentive to conduct due diligence on their loans.

And of course, individual Americans don't manage their own credit very well.

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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 11:20:27 AM   
popeye1250


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Pat Buchanan has warned us about many things before and his uncanny ability to interpret politics is right on the money again!
Everything that he's warned us about has or is becomming true.
This "global economy" doesn't and can't work.
One of the conditions of this "bailout" is that all companies need to return their manufacturing back to the U.S. or,....."no bailout!" Otherwise this will just happen again.
No country can have enourmous trade deficits year after year that are funded by more borrowing! Bankruptcy is the end result of that type of thinking.
And we simply cannot have 90% of what we buy made in foreign countries just so that "companies" will make "higher profits."
They call us,..."consumers" now not "Citizens!"
It's funny, some people have no problem with a "Gordon Gecko" making $10 M a year or lawyers making $200 per hour but pay a school janitor $25 an hour with benefits and they hit the roof! Why?
A low-paid working class in this or any country doesn't benefit anyone.
Right now we're seeing "consumers" who are doing a lot less "consuming" so the "global economy" model is starting to fail.
If you don't make enough money for your labor you can't "consume" at levels that will keep the economy going.
We need to start *manufacturing* things in this country again or we'll simply have a depression.
People who make $10 or $12 per hour with no benefits simply aren't going to be buying new cars, furniture, appliances or houses!
It wasn't "consumers" or Citizens who got us involved in these one-way-trade deals it was the very businesses that *we* are now "bailing out!"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/21/2008 11:43:48 AM >


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RE: The past week on Wall Street, making sense of it all - 9/21/2008 11:40:31 AM   
NumberSix


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So you might as well tax the shit outta big business and multi-national corps.

Consider it bail-out insurance premiums, when we have a surplus of tax monies in the bank, we can green-mail or take advantage of their cash, like overfunded pension plans as they do to the less than corporate geniuses.

Wait a minute!!!  That will make all the big business want to take their headquarters overseas!!!!!

LOL, well, fuck me!!!!


Great concept in my mind.

6

(anyone ever heard this rant before?)

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