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on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 12:01:45 AM

leftofcenter

Posts: 31
Status: offline

I stepped away from the lifestyle nearly two years ago, my last relationship just knocked the wind out of my sails. The adjustments I've had to make have been a big challenge, but I dont regret the choice I've made.
I've been in vanilla relationships in the meantime, they arent any less of a challenge than D/s or M/s relationships:) However, I've met a man in a vanilla venue, who is naturally dominant, and has some D/s experience and you just cant imagine how refreshing and fulfilling it's been to be back in touch with that part of myself. He doesnt demand or even ask anything of me, yet we both experience pleasure from the power exchange element that has just naturally occured between us...both sexually, and otherwise.
I find myself WANTING to be proactive in my submission to him...to offer my service to him, and focus on his pleasure and fulfillment. I do little things, clean up after dinner at his place, walk behind him, I'm outright DRIVEN to sit at his feet when we watch tv or something.
Anyway, the point is, I'm so out of practice that I cant think of things to DO in a proactive way, that show my desire to submit to him. I'd like to hear ideas from folks who also submit on their own terms, or just those who are more in practice of showing their submission without demand. I'm not looking for anything over the top....I'm sure we'd both laugh hysterically if I bowed at his feet and said,"Your wish is my command" or "My wish is your command" lol
Something less subtle than what I'm doing, but not inappropriate for this early and very fun stage in our relationship.
Thanks for reading my long winded post!!!

Post #: 1

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 1:05:59 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Ask him what he wants. I really dislike someone presuming what I want and how I want it without my training them or explaining it beforehand. I especially don't want someone to presume to submit to me beyond basic pleasantries without my acceptance.

You've been in vanilla relationships in this interim- do you mean to tell me you never did nice things for them? You never did things to make their lives easier? You never thought about them and how you fit into their life and what you could offer eachother?

Submission is a different perspective of course- but perhaps you should stop thinking about your twittery little insides and start thinking about this as a two person interaction in which everyone deserves open full informed consent.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to leftofcenter)

Post #: 2

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 4:25:52 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Ask him what he wants. I really dislike someone presuming what I want and how I want it without my training them or explaining it beforehand. I especially don't want someone to presume to submit to me beyond basic pleasantries without my acceptance.

You've been in vanilla relationships in this interim- do you mean to tell me you never did nice things for them? You never did things to make their lives easier? You never thought about them and how you fit into their life and what you could offer eachother?

Submission is a different perspective of course- but perhaps you should stop thinking about your twittery little insides and start thinking about this as a two person interaction in which everyone deserves open full informed consent.

The OP seems to be giving a reasonable description of your "Authority Transfer" - which is essentially a sub empowering an otherwise passive dom... You don't recognise a manifestation of your own theory? No wonder I prefer the tried and true *Power Exchange* - it recognises the dom's overt contribution, too (when there is one).

I also don't think the OP is saying she's never done things to please her vanilla partners. And neither do you, I imagine.... It's that a dom/me is more likely to recognise and appreciate a sub's service and need to please for what it is....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 7:53:03 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

the Op is asking for ways to be submissive that are not over the top because in her heart she is screaming to serve, and it feels so amazing to be back in touch with this part of herself she wants to dive in...(mild subfrenzy)

LA is saying, relax, take the time to simply love this person and let things come up naturally, the desire to serve will create the opportunitys to serve and you dont need possition x or possition y to be submissive....submission comes from the heart...and when you couple what is coming from the heart with actual communication around what the dom would like as service...what his love language is, we then you have a recipie for success....

I agree, as a dom i like my hair brushed and my body shaved....but that is not for everyone...if i sugest that to the op, a comedy could ensue where she comes up behind her dude with a razor or a hair brush and he is totally thrown off....that could turn into him thinking she does not like his hair...and her feeling like she was "doing all the right things" and got rejected....and soon something that was meant helpful actually creates kaos...

My advice would also be to ask your Dom OP, and to let things evolve naturally....

nature will take its course.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 4

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 7:58:31 AM

Twicehappy2x

Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

My advice would also be to ask your Dom OP, and to let things evolve naturally....

nature will take its course.

Good advice.

Try little things like making his favorite meal or dessert. Offer a back rub. Find out casually what type of lingerie appeals to him and wear it. Vanilla enough not to be over the top yet a submissive offering as it were if he wants to recognize it as such.

_____________________________

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 5

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 8:19:02 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

ps OP, as you are new i though i would include a definition of subfrenzy that i use.

My own definition of subfrenzy: ........Master Steve calls it the hunger.

1.It is a passionate desire to consume everything BDSM in hopes that you can get even higher on the endorphins that come from submission.

2. the idea that you are missing something...or are late to the party, so you have to consume as much and as fast as possible

the ways i have seen it manifest: and please know i am not saying any of it is bad, like any thing its all a personal choice of what is healthy for you :)

joining local groups and becoming an organiser, and admin person
going to all the cons you can, even when it means spending money time you dont have
going from dom to dom and getting every kind of play you can
going from dom to dom in relationship and or having several at one time. a dom, a trainer, a mentor, a poly family ect
getting a permanent mark of ownership very early in the dynamic with your partner
telling all your vanilla friends and family regardless of how they will feel
loosing perspective in your relationship and diving into the "roles" to such an extreme that the "roles" come first, before the people involved
thinking that there are "answers" to your life questions in BDSM or in the roles you choose
thinking that there is one true way
manifestos (this one tends to be more in dom frenzy but i have see it in subs too)

i think it is fair to say that everyone including myself has some frenzy in them when they first come in to this lifestyle. i am not judging it at all...i am just saying that being "proactive" can be a fine line...

proactive doing the things we, the strangers on the internet, suggest might not be as nourishing to the him and the relationship as being proactive doing the things he wants and suggests to you.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 6

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 8:41:00 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Start by observing, not by doing.
If the first thing he does when he gets home is put on sweats and get a glass of juice, then you'll know to offer him a glass of juice when he goes straight to your place after work, and buy him a pair of sweats to keep there.

If he likes his coffee in an oversized mug, keep your eyes out for one to keep at your place for him.

If he almost always orders apple pie, then bake one.

Etc. But guessing won't work, watching and learning will.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 7

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 10:53:12 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
The OP seems to be giving a reasonable description of your "Authority Transfer" - which is essentially a sub empowering an otherwise passive dom... You don't recognise a manifestation of your own theory? No wonder I prefer the tried and true *Power Exchange* - it recognises the dom's overt contribution, too (when there is one).

I am always quite explicit when I explain authority transfer that the other person much accept and take responsibility for the authority- you can't just lay it down at their feet and think that's the end of it.

And that's what it sounds like she's considering doing.

quote:

I also don't think the OP is saying she's never done things to please her vanilla partners. And neither do you, I imagine.... It's that a dom/me is more likely to recognise and appreciate a sub's service and need to please for what it is....

Focus.

My point is that she's saying she is totally out of practice, when we all know that serving and helping those around us is really part of all harmonious relationships.

And no, I don't think it's more likely for a dom to recognize and appreciate service- note me above. I am LESS likely to appreciate service when the person knows exactly what they are doing and presumes to do it without talking to me and coming to an understanding first. And I'm certainly not unique in that. I'm far more graceful and accepting when I know it comes from an innocent desire simply to make me happy and provide service than from someone who is fully AWARE of the concept of informed consent and exactly what providing that service to me entails.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 8

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 3:04:09 PM

trisket

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

stop thinking about your twittery little insides .

I wanna know what THAT is.. cause it sounds like something I WANT!

_____________________________

~~ .{ Dedicate the Day, everyday }. ~~

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 9

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 5:50:14 PM

bluefireroses

Posts: 37
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline

Do little things that you know he enjoys. Offer to do things for him, he can then say whether he wants you to or not.

Expressing my submissiveness in nilla relationships is mostly finding the little things that make the guy happy.

(in reply to leftofcenter)

Post #: 10

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 7:42:15 PM

Roselaure

Posts: 672
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline

quote:

It's that a dom/me is more likely to recognise and appreciate a sub's service and need to please for what it is....

Focus.

Bingo. I had two quite long-term vanilla relationships, where I was driven to serve and they never noticed that's what I was doing. It was absolutely maddening. No more vanilla relationships for me, thank you very much.

_____________________________

Once conform, once do what other people do because they do it, and lethargy steals over all the finer nerves and faculties of the soul.
-Virginia Woolf

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 11

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 8:32:41 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

And shall I bring out the thousands of posts written by subs who are frustrated because their doms don't notice, don't care, don't effect any dominance and they are very frustrated?

I've seen no evidence that being a dom makes one any more likely to actually recognize and appreciate service, either for service sake or as part of the relationship dynamic.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Roselaure)

Post #: 12

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/21/2008 11:04:54 PM

WhiplashSmile2

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline

I've dated a few girls that got so wrapped up in proactive submission and doing things that displeased me.

For instance, I hate somebody walking a couple of paces behind me, breaking their neck to open doors for me, pouring my beer into frostly glasses (I enjoy drinking it from the bottle).

Proactive submission without me training them to do what I like is a bit like sand paper being rubbed on my nerves.

I hate untrained submissives trying to second guess everything I desire, and how they fuss about in their feable misguided attempts at pleasing me.

(in reply to leftofcenter)

Post #: 13

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/22/2008 4:25:05 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
The OP seems to be giving a reasonable description of your "Authority Transfer" - which is essentially a sub empowering an otherwise passive dom... You don't recognise a manifestation of your own theory? No wonder I prefer the tried and true *Power Exchange* - it recognises the dom's overt contribution, too (when there is one).

I am always quite explicit when I explain authority transfer that the other person much accept and take responsibility for the authority- you can't just lay it down at their feet and think that's the end of it.

And that's what it sounds like she's considering doing.

Well, perhaps not "always". I recall your one and only contribution to a thread on PE about 2 months back. LA: "It's not power exchange, it's authority transfer."

Not so much an explicit explanation as a sweeping (and contentious) generalisation delivered in drive-by commentary form. I even called you on it for no reply - which might explain my confusion or misunderstanding now...?

quote:

quote:

I also don't think the OP is saying she's never done things to please her vanilla partners. And neither do you, I imagine.... It's that a dom/me is more likely to recognise and appreciate a sub's service and need to please for what it is....

Focus.

My point is that she's saying she is totally out of practice, when we all know that serving and helping those around us is really part of all harmonious relationships.

And no, I don't think it's more likely for a dom to recognize and appreciate service- note me above. I am LESS likely to appreciate service when the person knows exactly what they are doing and presumes to do it without talking to me and coming to an understanding first. And I'm certainly not unique in that. I'm far more graceful and accepting when I know it comes from an innocent desire simply to make me happy and provide service than from someone who is fully AWARE of the concept of informed consent and exactly what providing that service to me entails.

I didn't think there was anything malicious in the OP so I'm not sure where you're getting the manipulation slant from - you're getting it from my post?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 14

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/22/2008 7:36:34 AM

leftofcenter

Posts: 31
Status: offline

Great answers folks! Thank you all for the time and thought you gave to my question. Upon reading the replies, I was initially struck with the idea that either some of you didnt understand, or that I didnt communicate my question effectively......but you are all right. I cant imagine a dominant really knowing what to do with someone submitting to them without their consent to BE the dominant force. That could be seen as presumtive and irritating I imagine.
The vanilla guys I've dated have been just as taken aback at some of my more grandiose efforts to please them...they just dont know what to do with it...and honestly, most of them fall over themselves to please ME, which is always nice...but was difficult to get used to.
I agree that the thing to do is to have a conversation, to flat out ask him why he likes submissive women(he does)and get a better idea of the type of submission that lights his candle.....it could be that he's content with mostly bedroom submission, which is where it mostly stands now.
I also guess I overstated when I said he's never asked me to do anything...he has, small things, and they've been a joy for me to do....but it's also whetted my appetite for more!!! I'm neither new, or inexperienced within the lifestyle, have belonged to my local group for years, been to multiple lifestyle conventions, and spent quite a few years where I was exclusively in D/s relationships. It seems like my time off made me forget about one of the most important things......communication.....I guess I've been scared to talk about it in a more than "general" way, but we should talk about something more specific to us. It's a bit frightening to feel that vulnerability again.....but also empowering to feel the desire to allow that part of myself to come out again. I've tried to be coy....lol.....that rarely works for me and I know better!!! lol
Thank you all again.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 15

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/23/2008 3:27:33 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

And shall I bring out the thousands of posts written by subs who are frustrated because their doms don't notice, don't care, don't effect any dominance and they are very frustrated?

Yep, and I'm usually responding that it's typical behaviour of passive "doms" who have gotten tired of a role they've adopted in order to get their fantasies serviced on call. It's like they're not even doms at all, but some wannabe vanilla discovering some women like taking instruction - until something in return is expected of them....

Those subs generally end up starting threads in 'Ask a Master' wondering "WTF?"

quote:

I've seen no evidence that being a dom makes one any more likely to actually recognize and appreciate service, either for service sake or as part of the relationship dynamic.

Whoa!!! This is really you posting, LA?

Personally, that statement is nonsense! As a Dom who not only notices but expects specific standards of my girl, I absolutely recognise and appreciate (or not) what it is she does, even when not under specific instruction. My expectations (as a Dom) are so unusual?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 16

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/23/2008 4:49:16 AM

lally3

Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline

edited because ive just re-read the OP and he has some D/s experience, so my post was totally off beam.

< Message edited by lally3 -- 9/23/2008 5:17:36 AM >

_____________________________

even doves have pride (Prince)

(in reply to Roselaure)

Post #: 17

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/23/2008 6:22:43 AM

DMFParadox

Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline

Well, screw these guys, OP. I love that kind of enthusiasm. However, it can lead to failed expectations, which is probably why so many people have an issue with it.

Frankly, you have to follow your gut sometimes. And sometimes, you have to try to walk, fall over, stand back up, and still trust your feet. I.E., follow your instincts, offer yourself to this guy, and if he turns you down it's not a failure of yours or of submission in general, it's just that crap happens sometimes. Try again.

I'm tempted to say the whole "Don't you DARE sub for me without my permission!" stuff is pure windbaggery. Chances are that you are not coming off as needy and demanding, you're coming off as cute and cuddly, and adorable. Don't let the naysayers get you down, babe.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to lally3)

Post #: 18

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/23/2008 6:42:36 AM

silkenfire

Posts: 130
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

And shall I bring out the thousands of posts written by subs who are frustrated because their doms don't notice, don't care, don't effect any dominance and they are very frustrated?

Yep, and I'm usually responding that it's typical behaviour of passive "doms" who have gotten tired of a role they've adopted in order to get their fantasies serviced on call. It's like they're not even doms at all, but some wannabe vanilla discovering some women like taking instruction - until something in return is expected of them....

"Some D/s experience" might have to be qualified -- I don't know about your relationship, but...

I tried dating someone that was into the idea of BDSM. He wanted to be a Dom with a little slave girl. Yet, it wasn't more than talk. He would buy some serious implements even and not use them. He loved the idea of D/s but not the implementation at all. I tried doing things for him to make him happy, etc -- but nothing really worked. You might want to make sure you're not headed for the same situation...

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 19

RE: on your terms/proactive submission - 9/23/2008 2:23:58 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
Well, perhaps not "always". I recall your one and only contribution to a thread on PE about 2 months back. LA: "It's not power exchange, it's authority transfer."

Not so much an explicit explanation as a sweeping (and contentious) generalisation delivered in drive-by commentary form. I even called you on it for no reply - which might explain my confusion or misunderstanding now...?

It's certainly likely I do not always take the time to fully explain the philosophy behind the term each time I use it. I meant more within the context of a discussion of the term itself.

quote:

I didn't think there was anything malicious in the OP so I'm not sure where you're getting the manipulation slant from - you're getting it from my post?

Focus.

I didn't say she was manipulating? I said that as a dom I actually understand and am more forgiving of presumptive service when it comes from a place of ignorance than for someone who "should know better" about what service signifies in a Ds situation. Best intentions can still often lead to wrong actions.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 20

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