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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:00:48 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611




Bush's approval rating is 33%. It is the Democrat-lead Congress that is around 10%.


BTW, the latest numbers are at www.pollingreport.com

Bush is not that high and Congress is not that low.

In fact, the average is not that far apart.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/27/2008 9:05:34 AM >

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:01:40 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I'll vote for the "great enabler", and NOT so "great debator", Senator Obama. Is is really necessary to quote is stated Iranian policy and goal concerning Israel - AGAIN?


Politicians never state their real aims in elections because they hold themselves hostage to fortune, one has to read between the lines. However, one thing is clear, McCain is more of the same and Obama has a more intelligent view of the world. McCain type policies have put the US in shit street with most of the world gloating.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:01:49 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		MC here is a newsflash for you The State of Isreal is no ones dog,your referrencing Isreal as the US's dog actually sounds like a cold war era b movie"Imperial Yankee Dog".Laughable on its face,do you really think for a minute if Isreal fely threatened by a nuclear Iran...they would wait for one minute for American approval to strike....They would level without extreme prejudice and capability Iran had to follow thru on the stated goals of Amadinejad(sp?) and only than would they present an American President with their reasons for doing so......Isreal's mantra is ,rightly so,Never Again...they will ask for no ones permission to defend themselves.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:04:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

MC here is a newsflash for you The State of Isreal is no ones dog,your referrencing Isreal as the US's dog actually sounds like a cold war era b movie"Imperial Yankee Dog".Laughable on its face,do you really think for a minute if Isreal fely threatened by a nuclear Iran...they would wait for one minute for American approval to strike....They would level without extreme prejudice and capability Iran had to follow thru on the stated goals of Amadinejad(sp?) and only than would they present an American President with their reasons for doing so......Isreal's mantra is ,rightly so,Never Again...they will ask for no ones permission to defend themselves.


The US pays for Israel so how isn't it the US's baby and Bush stopped Israel form bombing Iran not long ago so Israel does do what its told by the US.

The point that Americans miss is that its Israeli colonialism and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians that is the real problem in the region, not the fact Israel exists. 

The idea that the US would allow Israel to bomb Iran and not expect retaliation that could prove costly is naive, especially for US forces in the region and maybe even in the US which is why Bush has kept Israel on the leash.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/27/2008 9:09:43 AM >

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:17:19 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Isreal is "kept on the leash" for as long as America can convince her there is still time to use other methods to stop Iran from becoming a Nuclear Power.The minute Isreal feels Iran is on the brink of acquiring a nuke...they will advise the American President after the strike of the reasons why.And denying that is denying reality.
When Isreal's enemys stop describing Isreal as a "rotting corpse" or proclaiming their intention to wipe the State of Isreal off the map.Than and only than can we talk about "underlying reasons" for conflict in the region.

_____________________________

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:44:07 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

  


The problem people never mention is that countires like Iran are reacting to US/Israeli aggression and are not the originators of the aggression in the region.




Really?  Yes, I heard something about that.

They created Israel and before you knew it the Israelis were running amok and trying to take over all their peaceful neighbors who had welcomed them with open arms.


(from Wikipedia)
The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism for over 3000 years.[7] After World War I, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine with the intent of creating a "national home for the Jewish people."[8] In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab.[9] On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence in accordance with the UN decision and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan. The Israelis were subsequently victorious in a series of wars confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, resulting in several major wars and decades of violence that continue to this day.[10] Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries and even the State's very right to exist have been subject to dispute, especially among its Arab neighbors.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:53:10 AM   
Mercnbeth


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I don't want you to mistake my pragmatic position regarding Iran as a rationalization for the US doing anything for Israel. My preference for the entire region is for the US to get completely out and let all concerning get on with the ongoing 5000 year war. Oil is the practical consideration. The US obviously lets people go on killing each other over religion anyplace else on the globe.

If there is any concern and subsequent 'policing' it should come from Europe where the 'fallout', both literal and political, will effect them first. Ironically a weak US, financial and military, doesn't bode well for peace. Without a US leash, Israel will take preemptive measures. They promise that in the same way Ahmadinejad commits to Israel's destruction.

Based upon what I heard yesterday an Obama Presidency is a clear path to that goal.

Meanwhile, the current 'official' as well as the 'man on the street' Iranian position is best summed up here.
quote:

Iran does not recognize the Jewish state, and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has attracted international condemnation by repeatedly predicting Israel is doomed to disappear and branding the Holocaust a "myth." The commentary inside the book includes anti-Semitic stereotypes and revisionist arguments, casting doubt that the massacre of Jews took place and mocking Holocaust survivors who claimed reparations after World War II. One comment, in a question-and-answer format, reads: "How did the Germans emit gas into chambers while there were no holes on the ceiling?" Answer: "Shut up, you criminal anti-Semite. How dare you ask this question?" In 2006, the Islamic republic hosted a conference of Holocaust deniers and revisionists and a mass-circulation Iranian newspaper held a cartoon competition on the subject. On Friday, tens of thousands of Iranians marched in Tehran, chanting "Death to Israel," declaring solidarity with the Palestinians and calling for Jerusalem and Israel to be handed to the Palestinians. Source: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080926152921.p3wozs19&show_article=1&lst=1 


Again - Is there any indication of a "live & let live" attitude? What would be Senator Obama's opening offer-Relocating the Israeli state to one of those extra 7 of the 57 States he referenced?

PLEASE don't take this as Israeli complicity, or justification for prior Israeli action. Were the media in Israel so inclined getting an Israeli version of the above article directed to Iran specifically and the Muslim world in general, would not be difficult. However, we are discussing the issue as it impacts the US Presidential election. Trying to make a decision about who will best not facilitate over a war that could include the exchange of nuclear weapons. Based upon the pragmatic reality of today, where is the room for 'sitting down'; and what is the likely positive result? Compare that to basically what is the 'status quo'; which doesn't necessarily preclude the exact same result. Therein lays the decision of which candidate gets the check-mark for the 'foreign policy' portion of the 'game'.

It is becoming more and more obvious that is what US politics have become. A game to distract the majority of US citizens from seeing that under current conditions no change is possible. Look at who was on the payroll allowing the current financial debacle - both parties fully represented. Albeit one side gives the excuse of 'good intent' while the other side's goal was 'good profits'; both sides got paid handsomely to create whatever personal rationalization they needed to enable both the financial institutions and individuals to fail. The same bipartisan coalition that wants to now reward that failure.

From your vantage point you think it is any different when it comes to foreign policy no matter what party distinction prevails? Tell me again - when exactly does Senator Obama call for a total withdraw from Iraq? Last I heard was when it was "possible", I do know he supported paying it through 2009 when he had a vote in his hand to end funding it that day - see you in 5000 more years.

Non issue for me - I'm voting for someone not in attendance last night.

Meanwhile...I'm going back to enjoy the festivities of 'leather week' on Folsom Street - a much more fun pursuit than settling a 5000 year old war.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 9:59:55 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Hearing Heretic or Sanity declare McCain the winner...or me ,Kittin and others declare Obama the winner,has more to do with how we felt before we sat down than anything that happened at Old Miss...



           Sorry you feel that way, Mike.  I call these debates as I see them, and as someone who has watched and judged a great many debates.  Perhaps you'll recall (or go look up) where I gave Saddleback to Barry?

        Neither candidate gave a perfect performance last night, but Obama lost this one.


If only all of us could be as impartial as you.

There are times I read your posts and just can't figure out who you support.


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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:24:32 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Isreal is "kept on the leash" for as long as America can convince her there is still time to use other methods to stop Iran from becoming a Nuclear Power.The minute Isreal feels Iran is on the brink of acquiring a nuke...they will advise the American President after the strike of the reasons why.And denying that is denying reality.
When Isreal's enemys stop describing Isreal as a "rotting corpse" or proclaiming their intention to wipe the State of Isreal off the map.Than and only than can we talk about "underlying reasons" for conflict in the region.


In an American documentary that was aired last year one Israeli soldier who took part in the murder of Arab women and children in 1947, said, they were ordered to to masacre Arab women and children to drive the Arabs out of Israel and they gladly did it, perhaps looking back, that was a mistake.

As you can see from the quotes below, Israeli politicians right from the beginning have been more than happy to describe Arabs in ways you complain others of labelling Israel. You look, like America, only one way.

Ben Gurion -      “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
 
“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”
 
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
 
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
 
 Begin "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
 
Shamir "(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
 
Barak The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....



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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:26:13 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Merc. If Iran doesn't reecognize the Jewish people, how come it recognizes the Jewish community in its midst and does it no harm?

To be honest Merc. I don't think I've ever read a balanced and rational view of the middle east on an American website.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/27/2008 10:30:05 AM >

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:39:27 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Merc. If Iran doesn't reecognize the Jewish people, how come it recognizes the Jewish community in its midst and does it no harm?

To be honest Merc. I don't think I've ever read a balanced and rational view of the middle east on an American website.


The Iranian people have not treated the jews in their community well.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:41:43 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic




The problem people never mention is that countires like Iran are reacting to US/Israeli aggression and are not the originators of the aggression in the region.




Really?  Yes, I heard something about that.

They created Israel and before you knew it the Israelis were running amok and trying to take over all their peaceful neighbors who had welcomed them with open arms.


(from Wikipedia)
The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism for over 3000 years.[7] After World War I, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine with the intent of creating a "national home for the Jewish people."[8] In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab.[9] On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence in accordance with the UN decision and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan.


You should read up on this. The surrounding Arab states were bearly states, they were not united against Israel, only Egypt sent troops to aid the Arabs in the new state of Israel, Syria refused the Arabs in Palestine help but did fight some for its own ends. The British commanded Jordanians were only ordered to hold their lines which they did. The Israelis were better armed, trained and far outnumbered the Arabs because the Arabs hadn't prepared fro war while the Israelis had.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
The Israelis were subsequently victorious in a series of wars confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, resulting in several major wars and decades of violence that continue to this day.[10] Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries and even the State's very right to exist have been subject to dispute, especially among its Arab neighbors.


Look at the quotes of Ben Gurion, he will tell you why Israel's existance has been disputed.

However, this debate was started by suggesting the US would be better having dialog with both sides of the conflict than supporting one for its own short term policies. Not wheter Israel has a right to exist or not.

One can see why the US ends up for years pursuing the same barren policies, the people that vote for the US government are so badly informed they are readily hoodwinked by fear mongers.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/27/2008 10:44:28 AM >

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:47:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Merc. If Iran doesn't reecognize the Jewish people, how come it recognizes the Jewish community in its midst and does it no harm?

To be honest Merc. I don't think I've ever read a balanced and rational view of the middle east on an American website.


The Iranian people have not treated the jews in their community well.


Americans have not treated the blacks in their community well.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:49:27 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Merc. If Iran doesn't reecognize the Jewish people, how come it recognizes the Jewish community in its midst and does it no harm?


Yeah, Iran doesn't discriminate or persecute Persian Jews at all.   

I am not even going to bother citing sources.  You can find examples of the persecution and discrimination of Persian Jews, Zorastrians, and Christians all over the internet.  The Iranian government won't allow Jewish families to take vacations together outside of Iran, because they know they won't come back. 

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:50:21 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Actually there has been a Jewish documentary made on the Jews in Iran and they had it no worse than any other community in Iran, not that that says much but they are not victimized for being Jews.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:52:29 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Merc. If Iran doesn't reecognize the Jewish people, how come it recognizes the Jewish community in its midst and does it no harm?


Yeah, Iran doesn't discriminate or persecute Persian Jews at all.   

I am not even going to bother citing sources.  You can find examples of the persecution and discrimination of Persian Jews, Zorastrians, and Christians all over the internet.  The Iranian government won't allow Jewish families to take vacations together outside of Iran, because they know they won't come back. 


I'm not saying Iran is a nice state to live in, I'm pointing out that Iranians don't persecute Jews for being Jews.

I can find examples of America persecuting muslims and blacks. Everyone can cherry pick.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:54:21 AM   
DMFParadox


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ORIGINAL: HoustonTXRunner

Out of the four that are on the major stage, the only person that I think that can stand up to Putin is McCain.  And to me, right now, it is Putin that is the most powerful man on the face of the Earth today.



This is a very, very good point. Also, the Chinese aren't as impressed with Obama as Europe is. They like him, but they respect McCain. They know that McCain is watching them. And China has quietly been putting MASSIVE amounts of money into its military infrastructure, so they bear watching.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/26/1448502.aspx

Putin may or may not be the single most powerful individual, but China is quickly becoming the dominant nation in world relations. They are essential players in this, and not to be ignored just because they have a free market... I mean, so do we, and look at some of the crap we've done.

< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 9/27/2008 10:56:41 AM >

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 10:59:14 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

quote:

ORIGINAL: HoustonTXRunner

Out of the four that are on the major stage, the only person that I think that can stand up to Putin is McCain.  And to me, right now, it is Putin that is the most powerful man on the face of the Earth today.



This is a very, very good point. Also, the Chinese aren't as impressed with Obama as Europe is. They like him, but they respect McCain. They know that McCain is watching them. And China has quietly been putting MASSIVE amounts of money into its military infrastructure, so they bear watching.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/26/1448502.aspx

Putin may be the single most powerful individual, but China is becoming dominant in world relations. They are essential players in this, and not to be ignored just because they have a free market... I mean, so do we, and look at some of the crap we've done.


Putin is in charge of a nation with an economy the size of London's, is he bollocks the most powerful single individual.

My guess is that China would love McCain to be President and pursue the same old policieis that are taking America down hill at an increasing speed.

Maybe that is China's ploy? Make Americans think China wants Obama as president so they vote for McCain because the last thing I would have thought any of America's adversaries would want, is an America that was trusted and respectred by its closest allies.

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 11:02:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Merc. If Iran doesn't recognize the Jewish people, how come it recognizes the Jewish community in its midst and does it no harm?

To be honest Merc. I don't think I've ever read a balanced and rational view of the middle east on an American website.
MC,
Unless you are Columbus discovering an island doesn't mean you've found a continent.

Similar islands exist in Israel. They are used commonly by Israeli apologists who at the same time ignore your accurate example. However, do they represent the Country or the people in either case?

There are island communities in the US where guns are banned, cars are banned. Would you accept those similarly as representing the US people or US policy?

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RE: The Great Debate Tonight!!!!! Hell yeah! - 9/27/2008 11:05:07 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

The world isn't lucky that you keep the muzzle on the Israel, you bank roll Israel, Israel is your dog, it does US bidding by proxy. The reason extremist Israelis keep alive the idea of greater Israel and hence the conflict in the region is because of US backing. Maybe if the US stopped interfering in the region in a malicious way, Iran would get over 1953 and peace would have a chance.  However, how can it get over 1953 with teh US constantly in its face, threatening it and backing Israeli colonialism in the region?


I know, how dare us give money to the ONLY homeland in the world to the Jewish people.  How dare us help defend people that have had people trying to exterminate them for 2000 years.  How dare us feel a kinsmanship with the only democracy in the whole region.  How dare the Israelis occupy land when they were attacked by a coalition of Arab nations seeking to annihilate it.  We should feel sorry for the "Palestinians" ie. Arabs, because the Arabs have no countries of their own.  I know Israel's neighbors really care about the poor Palestinians, that's why they have allowed Palestinian refugees to live and work in their countries. 



I suggest you read some history and then come back. Israel was not attacked by a coalition of Arabs, Israel ethnically cleaned and murdered Arab women and children. Syria did not send troops to aid the Palestinian Arabs, Syria did fight but not for the Palestinian Arabs, Jordan did not attack Israel, it helds its lines against Israeli attack as it was ordered to. Egypt did send some troops. Even then Israel had far outnumbered the Arabs, were better armed and trained and were prepared for war, the Arabs weren't prepared for war so that shows you who wanted war and who didn't!

America can give its money to who the hell it likes but I doubt it really cares that mucvh about the Israelis other than for its own short term foreign policy and some cockeyed biblical view of the world.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/27/2008 11:12:12 AM >

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