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RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/27/2008 8:33:48 PM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenderella

The thing that gets me is that Congress doesn't seem to really be investigating any alternatives. There is the House proposal of insuring the mortgages instead of buying them. That is the only alternative I've seen.

Does anyone think that there will be "easy" credit if this goes through? I don't think so because they've already been burned.

People are angry about this and rightfully so. There seems to be a cry of "it doesn't seem fair". It isn't. Greed got them to this point and maybe they just need to suck it up and take it.

Also, I have to say that I wasn't very impressed with Bush's case. He made a similar case for the Iraq war and that was wrong too. It is hard to get past that and believe him now. I also think that this threat of a long and painful recession is bogus. Many middle to lower class people are already feeling a big crunch and feel that we are already in a recession. It might get worse, that is true. I don't want to see that, but I also don't want the Congress to rush into something either. I'm happy they are battling it out.

Yes- congress is lacking on a plan B and a plan C.

I did get a reply from my JR Senator (who is up for re-election) that the bail out is needed. He cites some week articles... nothing convincing at all.

These ivory tower people dont have a clue as to how out of touch they are with the real world. They blur realities so effortlessly- you would think nothing can function with out being "managed" by some group.

The tally I heard is more like 5 trillion. Lets not forget that 2.3 trillion in money was missing per the audit of the book per Iraq. it barely made the news.

(in reply to zenderella)

Post #: 21

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/27/2008 9:13:12 PM

Termyn8or

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Just bail them out then, here's my credit card. Citibank will give me whatever I want, WHATEVER I want.

Hmmmm, buy a house, sign it over to someone else as it is lien free, then take a walk. Sounds better every time I think about it. Just think, if everyone did this, the government would just bail Citibank out. Oh wait, the Chinese government already did that.

Well, time for another round I guess.

T

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 22

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/27/2008 9:57:04 PM

TNstepsout

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

steps, why NOW ? Did all these foreclosures happen overnight ?

T

No, it didn't happen overnight, but it is now because the gov has ignored the problem for so long that it has reached a crisis point. Something should have been done many months ago, but everyone kept thinking the problem could be contained with a few rate cuts and a bailout here and there and an economic stimulus check. It's kind of like waiting to be treated for cancer because you don't want to admit you have it. By the time the patient admits there is a problem, the cancer is deadly and major surgery is needed when it could have been treated with a bit of radiation the year before.

The government has really failed us in this issue. It should have been dealt with long before now. Their lack of inaction and willingness to admit there was a problem actually increased the uncertainty. There was simply no confidence that anyone was at the wheel and no one wants to board a sinking ship.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 23

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 1:03:19 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

billions of dollars in investment money has been taken out of investment banks and hedge funds as people flee the risk. That run on these banks is what is causing them to fail

You don't "take money out of" an investment bank. They don't have depositors. But they DO underwrite financial offerings, buying them from the Principals and distributing them to investors, and they can't do that if they can't attract credit.

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 24

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 5:36:12 AM

TNstepsout

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

billions of dollars in investment money has been taken out of investment banks and hedge funds as people flee the risk. That run on these banks is what is causing them to fail

You don't "take money out of" an investment bank. They don't have depositors. But they DO underwrite financial offerings, buying them from the Principals and distributing them to investors, and they can't do that if they can't attract credit.

No, they don't have depositors, but they do have cash investments that can be closed or moved.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 25

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 6:19:58 AM

learningeveryday

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Joined: 9/24/2008
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so many poinst of view and oipnions. here's mine. i for one would like to see an itemizd list showing and accounting for so much money. our economcially situaition did not come over night to find a doable and realistic soultion shouln't either. some people like to cause fear adn panic in others to get quick response and almost prevent them from researching, investigating bcoming more informed of the situation and looking into things. how we conduct our business deals in stocks, credits, houising and other area need to change because of the globla econmicl impact as well as our country. and for crying out loud; call adn refer to the plan as something sounded more optimistic. stablization of our econmoy must and will happen; abeit not with makng eveyrone happy nor all in agreement with a plan. speak up and tell your state reps / congrss leaders and all accesible poiliticians you can tell about your view. voices need to be heard beynd a msessage board adn wihtout full comperhencion of how our econmiy flows....so become educated adn informed then spaek up loud and strong to any / all and demand to know where your words will go......and wehn. i am learning everyday and i approved this message.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 26

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 9:16:29 AM

TNstepsout

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Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: learningeveryday

so many poinst of view and oipnions. here's mine. i for one would like to see an itemizd list showing and accounting for so much money. our economcially situaition did not come over night to find a doable and realistic soultion shouln't either. some people like to cause fear adn panic in others to get quick response and almost prevent them from researching, investigating bcoming more informed of the situation and looking into things. how we conduct our business deals in stocks, credits, houising and other area need to change because of the globla econmicl impact as well as our country. and for crying out loud; call adn refer to the plan as something sounded more optimistic. stablization of our econmoy must and will happen; abeit not with makng eveyrone happy nor all in agreement with a plan. speak up and tell your state reps / congrss leaders and all accesible poiliticians you can tell about your view. voices need to be heard beynd a msessage board adn wihtout full comperhencion of how our econmiy flows....so become educated adn informed then spaek up loud and strong to any / all and demand to know where your words will go......and wehn. i am learning everyday and i approved this message.

In most situations I would agree completely but this has already been left too long and is now critical. I made this same analogy in another thread. The situation now is kind of like ignoring a health issue for so long that it finally becomes life threatening. At that point there really isn't time to doctor shop and get 2nd and 3rd opinions.

(in reply to learningeveryday)

Post #: 27

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 9:19:55 AM

Musicmystery

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No, actually, he's right---an accounting of assets and liabilities throughout the banking system would give us real data to work from, instead of shooting from the hip.

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 28

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 12:35:36 PM

TNstepsout

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Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No, actually, he's right---an accounting of assets and liabilities throughout the banking system would give us real data to work from, instead of shooting from the hip.

Who is shooting from the hip? I don't understand what you mean?

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 29

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 12:49:59 PM

Musicmystery

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A hasty solution pushed through Congress despite prominent economists not convinced its a good idea, a solution that significantly changes accountability, market regulation, etc etc etc in an attempt to look as though magically solving the problem....

Shooting from the hip. What America pretends is "leadership."

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 30

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 2:34:05 PM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

A hasty solution pushed through Congress despite prominent economists not convinced its a good idea, a solution that significantly changes accountability, market regulation, etc etc etc in an attempt to look as though magically solving the problem....

Shooting from the hip. What America pretends is "leadership."

I still don't understand who you think is shooting from the hip. It is Congress that is slowing the process, so they are not acting hastily and have added a lot to the original proposal. As far as I know, increasing regulation was always part of the deal.

The problem will not be magically solved. If the plan passes it will just shorten the length of time it takes us to recover and lessen the pain somewhat. Our economy is on life support-we have a long way to go.

Personally I really don't care if it's passed or not. I like Ramen Noodles.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 31

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 2:35:48 PM

Musicmystery

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Sorry, I assumed you knew this was a Bush/Treasury proposal presented as urgent and with no oversight.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/28/2008 2:36:39 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 5:12:16 PM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sorry, I assumed you knew this was a Bush/Treasury proposal presented as urgent and with no oversight.

Maybe the first three page doc that was presented to Congress, but I never had any illusions that it would be passed without some changes. That was just the basic blueprint and the basic concept. The rest is just details. It's obvious that Wall Street needs stiffer regulation and I think all members of Congress and Bush/Treasury agreed on that. I just think there is an awful lot of political posturing and chest thumping to cover the fact that these guys screwed up a long time ago. By acting all outraged at this point, they can keep their popularity with their constituents and lay the blame at the feet of Wall Street and the outgoing president. (oh and please don't assume I'm a Bush supporter-I'm not). It's just that politicians like neat tidy packages and it's an convenient way to avoid responsibility.

Check out this article http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6209 it's really good and was written over a year ago. This train wreck was visible from a long way away. I work with a guy who used to work in the stock market and he started telling me about what was going on over three years ago and predicted EXACTLY what is happening now. He doesn't want the plan to pass either. He wants a depression. He thinks the US is full of spoiled brats who need a hard lesson. Maybe he's right.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 33

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 6:21:40 PM

bestbabync

Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sorry, I assumed you knew this was a Bush/Treasury proposal presented as urgent and with no oversight.

Maybe the first three page doc that was presented to Congress, but I never had any illusions that it would be passed without some changes. That was just the basic blueprint and the basic concept. The rest is just details. It's obvious that Wall Street needs stiffer regulation and I think all members of Congress and Bush/Treasury agreed on that. I just think there is an awful lot of political posturing and chest thumping to cover the fact that these guys screwed up a long time ago. By acting all outraged at this point, they can keep their popularity with their constituents and lay the blame at the feet of Wall Street and the outgoing president. (oh and please don't assume I'm a Bush supporter-I'm not). It's just that politicians like neat tidy packages and it's an convenient way to avoid responsibility.

exactly!!! both parties, including their respective presidents, dem(clinton) & rep(bush) had a part in this mess! they have been shuffleing to cover it up for years and now they are scrambling and blaming it on Wall Street.
now we are paying for their mistake. they got us in this mess and want us to trust them now! if they could pass this bill without telling us they would!

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(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 34

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 6:22:23 PM

slvemike4u

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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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TNstepsout,you really believe the first proposal was nothing more than a blueprint.In three pages Paulson tried to grab more money than all these thieves have ever dreamed of,and for good measure he asked that the approval be made bullit proof too...no oversight,no questions asked.All in three pages......Never in the history of man have so few,with so little,tried to grab so much from so many......

_____________________________

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Post #: 35

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 6:23:30 PM

bestbabync

Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sorry, I assumed you knew this was a Bush/Treasury proposal presented as urgent and with no oversight.

which the Dems & Nancy P. shoved down our throats as the only saving grace!

< Message edited by bestbabync -- 9/28/2008 6:24:03 PM >

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 36

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 6:26:04 PM

slvemike4u

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TNstepsout,you really believe the Paulson Proposal was just a blueprint.Three pages.....never in the history of the world ,have so few,tried to steal so much,with so little..... from so many!!!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 37

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 9:44:10 PM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

TNstepsout,you really believe the Paulson Proposal was just a blueprint.Three pages.....never in the history of the world ,have so few,tried to steal so much,with so little..... from so many!!!

Well damn...I agree with you. :)

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 38

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 9:50:41 PM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

TNstepsout,you really believe the Paulson Proposal was just a blueprint.Three pages.....never in the history of the world ,have so few,tried to steal so much,with so little..... from so many!!!

Yup- that's what I think. Honestly there's no conspiracy here. I understand being suspicious of politicians, but they are not misleading anyone. The economy really is in dire shape. No one is stealing from anyone. Believe me, if this isn't done, you will lose a LOT more.

Think about this, BOTH parties have come together to hammer out this plan. Why would both parties agree if it wasn't absolutely necessary? The public HATES this plan. It's political suicide to agree to this right before an election. There is no way they would agree to it if they didn't believe it was absolutely necessary. Why isn't one of these candidates refusing to support it? Right now since everyone hates it, if a candidate spoke out against it the people would LOVE them and hate the other candidate. So why aren't they doing that? Because they know that we really are facing financial ruin and they don't want to be the party responsible for that.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 39

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/28/2008 9:55:00 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

TNstepsout,you really believe the Paulson Proposal was just a blueprint.Three pages.....never in the history of the world ,have so few,tried to steal so much,with so little..... from so many!!!

Yup- that's what I think. Honestly there's no conspiracy here. I understand being suspicious of politicians, but they are not misleading anyone. The economy really is in dire shape. No one is stealing from anyone. Believe me, if this isn't done, you will lose a LOT more.

Think about this, BOTH parties have come together to hammer out this plan. Why would both parties agree if it wasn't absolutely necessary? The public HATES this plan. It's political suicide to agree to this right before an election. There is no way they would agree to it if they didn't believe it was absolutely necessary. Why isn't one of these candidates refusing to support it? Right now since everyone hates it, if a candidate spoke out against it the people would LOVE them and hate the other candidate. So why aren't they doing that? Because they know that we really are facing financial ruin and they don't want to be the party responsible for that.

Thanks so much for giving us your "insider" explainations, TN.
Even though it has been said over and over in the news, so many
don't want to see or accept that without this bill passing, we would
be smack dab in an instant Depression, of enormous magnitude.
Our country would damn near almost be shut down.
As bad as things are now, can you imagine them 20 times worse?

For some reason, many just don't get how critical the situation is.
Even with the bill, I am not sure how much better off "Joe Citizen" will be.

I am far from an expert, but don't we need this bill just to keep the economy pretty much the way it is now?

< Message edited by MzMia -- 9/28/2008 10:06:29 PM >

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(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 40

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