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RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:09:04 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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Sorry Kneelforanne it doesn't, and it wouldn't.The 700 billion dollars distibuted to individual Americans would either have to eventually be payed back by those same individuals or money is simply devalued.All the while the institutions woud not be helped by infusion of cash to individuals,the institutions need to remove these poison instruments from their ledgers and they need LARGE chunks of cash to accomplish this.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to KneelforAnne)

Post #: 61

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:11:04 PM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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Kneel, that is a very good point. We know this problem has been building for years, and some of us want to know why the bailout didn't happen a few years ago when it would've been half the price or even less. Why did it become urgent RIGHT NOW ?

What's more this does not save anyone who will go through it in the future. People who got loans they could not afford. You think that's all of them ? I think not. I think they'll dole out our $700B and then the banks will be crying for more in about a year. And if we don't give it up then, we will go through EXACTLY the same thing we would forstall now with the $700B, only we would do it $700B more in debt.

I want one fucking person to offer up a cogent argument against what I have just said. PLEASE.

T

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 62

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:17:19 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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Well really no need at all to argue with the assertion that this won't save anyone who will go thru it in the future.It isn't meant to,that is hopefully what new regulations will address.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 63

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:25:27 PM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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slve, you seem to have gotten in edgewise.

Agreed, this bailout does not help the people. Well maybe indirectly, by propping up the US currency. Since we import almost everything we are at the mercy of the exchange rate. Of course maintaining the flow of money out of the coutry is not good in the long term, but our "leaders" don't think even five seconds into the future it seems. They should've gone to some of the bars I went to when I was twenty, the world would be a better place because they would be dead.

Consider Dad, you do something wrong and he says "You got five swats coming for that, but since we are going fishing you can take them after that, but then you get ten swats, your choice". That is about where we are at right now. All our "leaders" do is keep putting it off and putting it off, when we really should just get it over with. It is better if it comes sooner, when at least some of us can handle it, rather than waiting until we are all dessimated.

T

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 64

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:29:50 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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Well not if the point of the Bailout is to save us from financial armageddon

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 65

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:47:54 PM

TNstepsout

Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Kneel, that is a very good point. We know this problem has been building for years, and some of us want to know why the bailout didn't happen a few years ago when it would've been half the price or even less. Why did it become urgent RIGHT NOW ?

What's more this does not save anyone who will go through it in the future. People who got loans they could not afford. You think that's all of them ? I think not. I think they'll dole out our $700B and then the banks will be crying for more in about a year. And if we don't give it up then, we will go through EXACTLY the same thing we would forstall now with the $700B, only we would do it $700B more in debt.

I want one fucking person to offer up a cogent argument against what I have just said. PLEASE.

T

Why it didn't happen years ago? I can't tell you except that I don't think anyone in power wanted to spoil the party. Everyone was having such a good time with all that lovely money just raining down from heaven. It wasn't just banks and Wall Street, it was everyone. Think of all those big screen TV's, granite countertops, shiny new cars, homes, daily trips to Starbucks, designer clothes etc.... You have to admit, it was quite excessive.

I'm not really sure how much is enough or if we even have that much. I don't know if the banks will be crying for more, but if too many banks are allowed to fail it will only exacerbate the problem. This is a really terrible mess. At this point it might be completely hopeless. The reason the bailout was touted as so urgent is there was a hope that we could stem the tide of panic that was causing people to pull their money out of the banks, stocks, hedge funds etc... which was causing them to collapse.

I don't know if that's a cogent argument or not, but it's the best I have. The problem is somewhat like giving aid to a crappy parent because you don't want the child to starve. It sucks to have to help the parent, but do you let innocent children bear the cost of their parents irresponsibility? It's a conundrum but that's where we are.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 66

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:55:17 PM

UncleNasty

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Joined: 3/20/2004
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The ripples from the "mortgage crisis" stone thrown into the pond haven't even reached the edge yet.

It is important to remember the many layers of fraud the banksters have been engaged in, and the number of players. Pretty much fraud at every level.

They made loans to people under fraudulent conditions, encouraged them to lie about income, sold them immediately to create distance and protections for themselves, overvalued appraisals, lied about the levels of risk, packaged them together as "solid" investments and sold them to everybody under the sun.

Pensions invested, so retirees that worked their entire lives to enjoy retirement have lost.

Cities have invested, and lost. Now what do you think will happen to road maintainence, schools, etc.

Foreclosures are at record levels. Perhaps 2 million this year, on top of last years 750K. Next year will likely be worse. Do you still the crap about the banks not wanting your house?

This is the worst business plan I've ever seen or heard of.

Conservatives cry loud about "shouldn't have taken a loan if they can't afford it." Well, borrowers only made the mistake once. Lenders made it literally millions of times. Millions of times. And without hesitation have lept at the chance to seize peoples property.

The fraud involved in the mortgage servicing industry has been rampant as well. Trash fees. Not applying escrow payments for insurance and property taxes in lawful ways and using that as a means to force people into default. Not crediting payments in timely ways. Once they have the borrower in default they pull out the threat of foreclosure and use it to steal more money from them.

Fair Debt Collection Practices Act violations are also rampant in the origination of the loans, as are RESPA and HOEPA violations. Most consumers aren't learned enough about these to even know how to pursue them.

The bad faith and illegality involved is really astounding. As I look over all I have learned about the housing issue that is claimed to have precipitated this debacle it is hard to believe there hasn't been some intention involved. I can but repeat a previous statement: This is the worst business plan I've ever seen or heard of.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 67

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/29/2008 8:56:18 PM

kinkbound

Posts: 387
Joined: 9/15/2007
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The financial end is near for our monetary system? I think that's great! Maybe we'll finally have the chance to pull the plug on the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, and start new with a non-debt monetary system.

Why do we want the Federal Reserve, and their debt-based, fractional banking system anyway? After all, we still don't know who the shareholders of this privately held entity are anyway. It seems odd that they create and distribute our money, charge interest on it (even charging interest to the government), while amassing the greatest concentration of wealth and power imaginable. And no one even freaking asks who the hell these people are!

I say, why don't we demand to know who these nameless and faceless titans of power are, and then make THEM either bail the system out, or we repeal the FRA of 1913, strip the shareholders of the FR of their immense power, and start over with a non-debt, non-fractional banking monetary system.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 68

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/30/2008 7:14:39 AM

bluepanda

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Joined: 12/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

I'm sure it will make all the "next great depression" and Armageddon groupies happy, but a protracted contraction isn't going to be fun for anybody - on the other hand, if it does happen, I suspect people won't just forget about it six months later like they do everything else.

And that, in a nutshell, is the value of letting this whole process run its bitter course. The very reason this happened in the first place is because America as a whole forgot the lessons we learned in the Great Depression. Do you think the generation that came of age during the Depression - the politicians, the businesspeople, the average men and women who remember the days that a new pair of shoes was something you saved for all year - would ever have allowed this to happen? I think it's very unlikely. The lessons of the Depression were so horrible, it took this country almost 2 full generations to forget them. The lessons our grandparents and great-grandparents learned during that decade - the lessons of hard work, frugality, and financial responsibility - were what allowed them to build this country, in the span of a single generation, into what was arguably the greatest country in the history of, well, countries. But evidently, we need to learn those lessons again, and I absolutely guarantee you that the only way we're going to learn them again is to live them again.

I'm not saying I oppose the bailout. Actually, I'm of mixed feelings - as is often the case with me, I see a lot of value on both sides of the issue; but as is rarely the case with me, I'm not entirely certain which side of the argument i fall on right now. I'm just sayin', if we have to go through it again, at least we can go through it knowing that when we come out the other side of it, it'll probably be at least a half century or so before we have to go through it another time. And in the long run, that might not be such a bad thing.

< Message edited by bluepanda -- 9/30/2008 7:15:39 AM >

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RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 9/30/2008 7:43:28 AM

bluepanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenderella
Also, I have to say that I wasn't very impressed with Bush's case. He made a similar case for the Iraq war and that was wrong too. It is hard to get past that and believe him now. I also think that this threat of a long and painful recession is bogus. Many middle to lower class people are already feeling a big crunch and feel that we are already in a recession.

You're seeing the essence of Bush, right there. The naked reality of the man, in blindingly obvious 3-D technicolor. Part of the problem, obviously, is that he's such a lying sack of shit most Americans wouldn't believe him if he put his hand on a bible and swore that water flows downhill, but in this case - his total inability to persuade the American people that we need the bailout - you're seeing another aspect of him as well.

The reason George Dubya Bush can't explain to the average American why this plan benefits them is because he doesn't understand it himself. And the reason he doesn't understand it himself is because he just has no concept of who the average American even is - in his world, the average American is just an asset for him and his buddies to use to create more wealth for themselves. He only cares about our prosperity to the extent that it affects his prosperity. Of course, he can't exactly stand up at the podium and say that, but he's too frigging dense to figure out another way to say it, at least with any degree of conviction. So his argument falls flat.

To George Dubya Bush, the only reason for doing this bailout is because, in his world view, that's precisely the role of the federal government - to stay out of the way when rich people are making money, and don't do anything that might make them have to give some of it up. Don't do anything to interfere with them making as much money as they want to make, until they go too far and do something dumb that might make them lose some of that money - and then step in and give them more money to bail them out. To Dubya, that is the federal government's very reason for existence, and he simply cannot comprehend why any further explanation than that would even be necesssary.

(in reply to zenderella)

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RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 10/1/2008 4:57:52 PM

MmeGigs

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Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda
The reason George Dubya Bush can't explain to the average American why this plan benefits them is because he doesn't understand it himself.

From what I've been hearing lately, the reason that he (and others who supported it) couldn't explain to us why it benefits us is because it didn't. An analogy I heard today was "bailing out the leaky boat before patching the holes". I think that's pretty apt.

It could be argued - and was argued - that it would benefit us indirectly, but that was all about predictions of doom and gloom that would trickle down to us if we didn't do it, not about good things that would happen for us if we did do it. All of the immediate good would happen for the folks on the top and it would trickle down to us. Frankly, a lot of us have been trickled down on so much and in such a not-good way that it feels like a perpetual non-consensual golden shower (to add some kink content). From what I can see, all a bailout would do for us is lessen the pain to the point where we no longer have the will to make the tough decisions and do the hard work that it will take to really fix this problem.

< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 10/1/2008 5:14:58 PM >

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RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 10/1/2008 5:22:43 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

We know this problem has been building for years, and some of us want to know why the bailout didn't happen a few years ago when it would've been half the price or even less.

We were too busy cutting taxes and throwing money at Iraq.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 72

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 10/1/2008 7:28:12 PM

bluepanda

Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda
The reason George Dubya Bush can't explain to the average American why this plan benefits them is because he doesn't understand it himself.

From what I've been hearing lately, the reason that he (and others who supported it) couldn't explain to us why it benefits us is because it didn't. An analogy I heard today was "bailing out the leaky boat before patching the holes". I think that's pretty apt.

It could be argued - and was argued - that it would benefit us indirectly, but that was all about predictions of doom and gloom that would trickle down to us if we didn't do it, not about good things that would happen for us if we did do it. All of the immediate good would happen for the folks on the top and it would trickle down to us. Frankly, a lot of us have been trickled down on so much and in such a not-good way that it feels like a perpetual non-consensual golden shower (to add some kink content). From what I can see, all a bailout would do for us is lessen the pain to the point where we no longer have the will to make the tough decisions and do the hard work that it will take to really fix this problem.

More and more, I'm starting to think the same thing. The more I look at the way the wind is blowing, the more I'm starting to think that you and I and everyone in our caste is scheduled to be horsefucked no matter what. What's that line from "The Magnificent Seven"? Something like, "Whatever I decide to do to these people is going to happen to them whether I kill you first or not." Whatever happens to us is going to happen to us whether the billionaires get bailed out first or not. The coming recession is inevitable, and will probably be severe no matter what the government tries to do to cushion the blow. More and more, I'm inclined to say fuck it, let's take our beating and get it over with.

I know, that's easy for me to say. I don't have any family to worry about, and I've got more than enough money put away in safe investments that barring a total collapse of Western civilization, I don't have to worry about my survival. My retirement, yeah - but not my survival. My job is as safe as any job can be right now. I'm totally debt-free. I don't own my home, so i don't have to worry about the housing market. I don't have to worry about the credit crunch, because I can easily pay cash for anything I need. And if worse comes to worst, I've got 3 rifles, 3 shotguns, and 3 handguns, and I'm a damned good shot with most of them. I grew up in the country, been a wilderness guide, and know how to live off the land. And I've got a quarter ton of venison strolling around in my back yard every day of the week. I won't starve. If it ever comes down to it, I've got my spot picked out up near the Canadian border, and you and yours are more than welcome to join me.

There are millions of others who will suffer far worse than I should the whole house of cards come tumblin' down, and I'm genuinely sorry for them, but I don't know if there's any way to write any kind of happy ending for this. I know it sounds cold of me, but then, I'm a bit of coldblooded motherfucker sometimes, right? I think we need to let the chips fall where they may, hope for the best, and see what we can put back together out of the pieces when the dust clears and the noise stops.

< Message edited by bluepanda -- 10/1/2008 7:57:42 PM >

(in reply to MmeGigs)

Post #: 73

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 10/1/2008 8:33:25 PM

KneelforAnne

Posts: 1011
Joined: 6/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sorry Kneelforanne it doesn't, and it wouldn't.The 700 billion dollars distibuted to individual Americans would either have to eventually be payed back by those same individuals or money is simply devalued.All the while the institutions woud not be helped by infusion of cash to individuals,the institutions need to remove these poison instruments from their ledgers and they need LARGE chunks of cash to accomplish this.

*smiles*

Well, that does make sense...thank you for explaining.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 74

RE: Why the bailout at all ? - 10/2/2008 5:23:58 AM

learningeveryday

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/24/2008
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tnstepsout:
if yoour long time poor health becoems that serious adn critical and you don't "doctor shop" how sad for you. heck if you're not concerned to find the right phyisian jsut get a do it yoursefl book or aks a friend. no one should be influeneced by alarmests; quik adn compulsive in making impotrant decisions while feeding on fear of others creatse more problems than solutions. our econmony is how WE conduct oursevles too. we are all accountable and need to llok at what we do, adn how we can make chagnes....not believe or trust others to make things right. our "leaders" are saying its oaky to have a debt thta, franlky; all of us know will never be paid....taht is exaxtly why we are in this situation to begin wthi and our "leaders" are scrambling to set fear and anxiety to US adn do whta they have always done and what has failed time and tme again; without accountability or rseponsiblity for it. say no to america / americans going further inot debt and yes to corps (exxon, for example) who can help, by steping up to the plate in pulling their weigth for a change.....<jumps off her soap box>

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 75

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