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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 3:08:44 PM

Musicmystery

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~FR~

The stock market's take on this is irrelevant--that's just investors trying to game the system. It's often jumpy.

The credit markets are the issue---the risk of tight credit in the financial markets spilling out into the "real" economy.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 3:14:50 PM

chickpea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77

I'm personally glad the house rejected bush & his cohorts attempt to rob the treasury one last time!!!
The American people have survived these disasters in the past & I'm sure we'll survive this one too...
I just hope that the dissent & social unrest from this isn't the excuse that bush uses to declare Martial Law & suspend the elections...

Yeah, Americans survived the Depression. I've heard it wasn't a hell of a lot of fun though.

Do we need to experience that personally because we are angry at those who got us into this?

Because it will be the average person that experiences the greatest economic pain. Not those you think we are going to punish by denying the bailout. They may have to downgrade from a Gulfstream to a Learjet and trade the Bentley for a Mercedes but they'll do just fine. It'll be the rest of us who will be hurting.

We are karmically being punished for voting the poor excuse for a President (seems like Sarah Palin) into office.

Bush will probably declare Marshall Law after he suddenly goes on T.V. and proclaims: "if Marshall Law isn't passed RIGHT NOW, the consequences of the American population using their own sense of judgement in determining the own fate ...will be DISASTEROUS!!!" and gets congress to pass a Bill, proclaiming George W. as King, Torturer, and Owner of all the Banks in the U.S.

Looks like Bush was the original Trojan Horse cashing in on all the perks of power that he can (kind of like Sarah Palin becoming Governor of Alaska), once he got into the White House...*sigh*

< Message edited by chickpea -- 9/29/2008 3:16:09 PM >

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Congrats to both In the end it was win-win. Now let's get to work http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/john-mccain-concedes-election http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/17/transition.wrap/index.html

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 3:22:35 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

The stock market's take on this is irrelevant--that's just investors trying to game the system. It's often jumpy.

The credit markets are the issue---the risk of tight credit in the financial markets spilling out into the "real" economy.

I don't know how you can say it is irrelevant. The single biggest one-day drop in the history of the market.

Wasn't the market crash in 1929 what signaled the start of the Depression?

True, if it were that alone I wouldn't be worried. Along with that, in the same week we had WaMu go under, the largest bank failure in history. Today Wachovia had to be bought out. We've had 3 of the 5 major investment banks either go bankrupt or be forced into sale. Not to mention the problems at Fannie, Freddie, and AIG.

I mean, what exactly will it take for people to wake up and realize this is some serious shit?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/29/2008 3:23:53 PM >

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 4:22:46 PM

MsRobinSanders

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Well stated.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 4:47:52 PM

OneMoreWaste

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I don't know how you can say it is irrelevant. The single biggest one-day drop in the history of the market.

Wasn't the market crash in 1929 what signaled the start of the Depression?

It signaled the start, but wasn't the cause. Just like now (learning from mistakes = fail) it was a drastic market re-adjustment following a long-term, but unsubstantiated run-up funded by credit. Basically, inflation- people and organizations could bet money they didn't have on the Market, and since there are a finite number of stocks and a large number of people wanting to cash in on a Sure Thing, the prices went up. Then somebody noticed "oh shit, this stuff is going for way more than it's actually worth, I'd better bail out", the news spread, there was mass stock dumpage, and when the chips were called in nobody had them.

We've been seeing the same thing over the past 25 years as the Baby Boomers (who didn't live through the Depression OR listen to their parents) saw the Market as A Sure Thing, saw that traditional pensions were a thing of the past, and started dumping all their savings and disposable income into the Market based on analysts who pimped "long term gains" like they were guaranteed. Again, finite supply, enormous demand, inflation. Correction.

And it's nothing compared to what'll happen in the next 25 years as Boomers pull all their money *out* of their pension funds...

Oh, and just to toss out another number, with a median home price in the U.S. of just over $200,000, $700 Billion could buy 3.5 Million homes outright.

But, the bailout is a guarantee. There's got to be some posturing, coming as it does inconveniently close to an election, but the big boys never lose.

Then, credit will once again be "freed" for important things like "investing" in derivatives, and we can do this all over again in three years instead of seventy.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 5:00:45 PM

kdsub

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Not to worry war with Iran will pull us out of the new depression.

Butch

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 5:09:35 PM

MasterRenegade77

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I'm not saying it'll be pleasant but maybe if we get our asses kicked we'll open our eyes, ears, minds & grow a pair... Then maybe next time we'll stand up & say no instead of bending over while they rape us yet again...

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 5:20:52 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

The stock market's take on this is irrelevant--that's just investors trying to game the system. It's often jumpy.

The credit markets are the issue---the risk of tight credit in the financial markets spilling out into the "real" economy.

I don't know how you can say it is irrelevant. The single biggest one-day drop in the history of the market.

Wasn't the market crash in 1929 what signaled the start of the Depression?

True, if it were that alone I wouldn't be worried. Along with that, in the same week we had WaMu go under, the largest bank failure in history. Today Wachovia had to be bought out. We've had 3 of the 5 major investment banks either go bankrupt or be forced into sale. Not to mention the problems at Fannie, Freddie, and AIG.

I mean, what exactly will it take for people to wake up and realize this is some serious shit?

Sigh.

Yes, it's serious, but it's serious for fundamental issues, not investor reactions.

Stock ownership means part ownership in a business. If you owned part of a neighborhood store, would you have sold your interest at a loss today?

Don't forget that the stock market is a MARKET. That means for everyone who dumped stock, someone else was willing to grab the bargain----or they wouldn't have been able to sell.

The CREDIT market is an entirely different animal, and THAT'S where (the long coming) problem lies.

Actually, then real problem is that people are only interested in solving crises, not doing reasonable things to ward them off far before they happen. We have a few more coming, too, since we have structural deficits. We could change that.....but then we'd have to stop electing people who tell us all is well.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/29/2008 5:23:28 PM >

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 8:16:28 PM

UncleNasty

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[/quote]

We are karmically being punished for voting the poor excuse for a President (seems like Sarah Palin) into office.

Bush will probably declare Marshall Law after he suddenly goes on T.V. and proclaims: "if Marshall Law isn't passed RIGHT NOW, the consequences of the American population using their own sense of judgement in determining the own fate ...will be DISASTEROUS!!!" and gets congress to pass a Bill, proclaiming George W. as King, Torturer, and Owner of all the Banks in the U.S.

Looks like Bush was the original Trojan Horse cashing in on all the perks of power that he can (kind of like Sarah Palin becoming Governor of Alaska), once he got into the White House...*sigh*
[/quote]

As I recall Sadam had staff torturers and rapists. Seems even in a down economy with high unemployment my skills may be in demand, :) I think I'll send a resume to the Whitehhouse.

Uncle Nasty, torturer and rapist for illegitimate and sadistic regimes everywhere.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 8:23:13 PM

MissSCD

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Hell, I am at the bottom of the barrell. It doesn't matter to me if the whole thing collapses. Don't blame it on immigrants. It is poor management by the republican President of the past long miserable eight years.
I don't have a mortgage because I don't live over my head. You people who have bought homes that are at least $300,000 and more and have mortaged yourself to death are the core of the problem. Let's not forget the SUV's which cost $100.00 to fill it up. You all have helped drain our resources as well.
It is time to get real and deal with this mess.
CEOs will be going to jail. The President should also. We will have to keep him up too.
I think it is hilarious looking at it from the bottom and always being stepped on by big corporations.
Enough is enough. Back to Barrack's web site.

Regards, MissSCD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

If they took $700 Billion and divided it between all US legal citizens, from infants to elderly, we would each receive $2.5 million dollars, which would be plenty to pay off our mortgages.

I think you may have missed a decimal point. We have a bit over 300 million residents. 88 percent of those were born here. Others are naturalized citizens, but just allowing that EVERYONE who is foreign born is illegal that leaves 265 million citizens born in the US. That comes out to a bit over two and a half GRAND (not million dollars). Can you pay off your mortgage with less than three grand?

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/29/2008 9:01:05 PM

TheUtopian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

dow - INDU -580.16 INDP 10566.65

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1555644/mpage_1/key_stock%252Cmarket/tm.htm#1555644

HAR!! HAR!! HAR!!

I say the ghosts of Friedman and Von Hayek are rolling in their graves-----Let this mother fucker burn!

On a very serious note.... Let this thing burn to the ground {seriously} That way it becomes an exercise in cause and effect for the expulsion of gargantuan blocs of crapy and dishonest public officials and elected representatives.

Out of the nihilistic dust arises a re-constituted America......

- R

PS - Call your elected representatives - and tell them no tax payer bail out!!!

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My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 1:16:15 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRenegade77

I'm not saying it'll be pleasant but maybe if we get our asses kicked we'll open our eyes, ears, minds & grow a pair... Then maybe next time we'll stand up & say no instead of bending over while they rape us yet again...

I would like to agree, but when we should have grown a pair was when Enron, Worldcom, Tyco and all the others gave us a wakeup call.

I think the only choice now is with or without lube.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 2:12:52 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sigh.

Yes, it's serious, but it's serious for fundamental issues, not investor reactions.

Stock ownership means part ownership in a business. If you owned part of a neighborhood store, would you have sold your interest at a loss today?

Don't forget that the stock market is a MARKET. That means for everyone who dumped stock, someone else was willing to grab the bargain----or they wouldn't have been able to sell.

The CREDIT market is an entirely different animal, and THAT'S where (the long coming) problem lies.

Actually, then real problem is that people are only interested in solving crises, not doing reasonable things to ward them off far before they happen. We have a few more coming, too, since we have structural deficits. We could change that.....but then we'd have to stop electing people who tell us all is well.

I wasn't directing that comment about the situation being serious at you. I was making a general statement that too many people are giving in to anger over having to bail out these companies without thinking of the consequences if a solution isn't found.

I think we are missing each other's points. I realize the fundamental problem is the credit market, but you seem to want to look at it as a stand-alone entity and I don't think you can. The type of drop we had in yesterday's market is going to have the effect of further tightening the credit market, which in turn will cause more negative reaction in the stock market and on and on.

I agree these things should be warded off, but we have the crisis and it needs to be addressed.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 5:38:28 AM

DedicatedDom40

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

The stock market's take on this is irrelevant--that's just investors trying to game the system. It's often jumpy.

The credit markets are the issue---the risk of tight credit in the financial markets spilling out into the "real" economy.

I would agree, except that it really isnt a "spill over" situation. Spill over defines a line between the two, and there is no line anymore. With the loss of manufacturing, our economy has become monopolized by the credit sector and its related financial engineering practices. The credit markets have become our economy.

Child actor Gary Coleman does those TV commercials for Cash Call that sells people on $200 unsecured payday loans. Reading the fine print, those loans are at 99% APR, with a total payback of $2,600 for that $200 loan. Not too long ago, gouging on that magnitude was illegal. It makes the mob's shakedown machine or any loan shark look like rank ametuers. Today, its just another average day in business in America.

How we would recover from any potential meltdown is more worrysome. We recovered from 1929 by "making things". We dont make things anymore. We just sell people on their need for more credit nowadays.

< Message edited by DedicatedDom40 -- 9/30/2008 5:52:51 AM >

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 6:58:18 AM

Irishknight

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The market will readjust itself if they leave it alone. The bailouts will make the problem worse in the long run by pouring money into an artificially inflated market that was bound to fall sooner or later.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 8:18:35 AM

bipolarber

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It must suck for Bush right now... this wasn't supposed to kick in until we were past the election... That way, the GOP could plunder the treasury, and blame it all on the new administration. Thanks to the cards falling ahead of schedule, it's going to cost McCain the election, and the US now knows what kind of scheming evil has been festering in their government, disguised as "trickle down" economics.

So, even if they pass the purchase of all the bad property loans, will that stop the bulk of home foreclosures that is about to happen?

No.

Until that bill has something in it that allows the homeowner to take their case to a bankruptcy court, and rewrite the terms of their fraudulent ARM into something they can actually pay, all we are doing is allowing the assholes who got greedy a "get out of jail free" card. If they can't stay in their homes, then that's going to drag the rest of us down.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 11:05:35 AM

DedicatedDom40

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

The market will readjust itself if they leave it alone. The bailouts will make the problem worse in the long run by pouring money into an artificially inflated market that was bound to fall sooner or later.

The ups and downs of the market are only a symptom. They are not the problem. The real problem is derivatives, financial instruments that were a byproduct of our recent boom. Their potential for exponential gains or losses has given them the nickname "Financial WMDs" in our current down times. Derivatives are the greatest story not yet told.

While it may be trendy for blue collar types to argue that the rich guy doesnt deserve a bailout, those blue collar folks need to explicitly understand and acknowledge that WMD's are not selective in what they destroy. They have a much sharper effect than a "market correction", and they dont single out Main St for any avoidance of fallout.

Energy derivatives are what imploded Enron, not Ken Lay. Keeping his derivatives losses hidden in dummy corporations and out of view of his shareholders is what Ken Lay went to jail for. While it may have made great therapeutic television for a nation of devistated 401Ks to see Ken Lay doing the perp walk in ankle chains, the Main St. population in this incredibly dumb nation failed to realize just what really took Enron down, and how much our big banks were equally engaged in the same practices. Sarbanes-Oxley addressed the disclosure issues that came out of the Enron failure, but the underlying derivatives problem continued on its unobstructed way.

Main St. needs to face facts that while they were asleep at the wheel, or otherwise obsessed with a political civil war (republicans v democrats), the rich guys found ways to insulate their Vegas dealings on Wall St with a variant of the poison pill. Sure, we can get our representatives to vote no on any bailout. Democracy in action (inaction?) and all that. Just as long as we also understand what the consequences are.

To me, that is the crux of the whole issue surrounding this vote. An uneducated nation obsessed with a poor guy v. rich guy welfare issue phoning their representatives and swaying a vote without even having a clue. Watching politicians spin the vote failure on an inadequate education of the public towards the presence of financial WMDs, something nobody wants to ever bring up, was a classic political moment.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 3:03:21 PM

Irishknight

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I am not saying that the correction will be pretty. In fact, it is going to be damned ugly. Unfortunately, we need it to happen. The longer we wait, the more painful it will be.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 3:09:20 PM

Musicmystery

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I'd like to see middle ground, actually. I agree the fundamentals need a painful correction. I also think some intervention would soften the blow, rather than let chaos reign. One thing when we all grew our own food, but more difficult in an industrial economy.

The bond markets are very tight right now. Short term, OK, but long term would indeed seize up the economy.

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RE: bailout rejected stocks plumet. - 9/30/2008 3:58:37 PM

Politesub53

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Here are some views on the failure to agree a bailout, from the worlds press.

Music got it right, whats needed is to get confidence and stability into the worlds credit markets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7644129.stm

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