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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 7:19:55 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I have to look a bit further than I expected. At the moment I have before me Astronomy, a physical perspective, by Marc L. Kutner (1987). He says on page 162: "According to Einstein, the angle through which light ... [is bended] ... is 1.74 arc seconds. (Very small.)
 
"In the intervening years (between eclipses) Einstein had found a mistake in his calculations, so it is probably just as well that the observations [on the first eclipse] weren't done.
 
"The solar eclipse experiment is a hard one, and the original one [ i.e. the second eclipse] had a ten per cent uncertainty associated with it". (In later years in other observations reduced to five per cent.)
 
Now if I recall correctly - and I have this as distinct knowledge in my head - originally Einstein's calculations were off by a factor two. That is before he corrected his calculations as mentioned above, I believe. I will try to dig up that information and provide a reference, as I said, but that will take longer. (Tomorrow)
 
Edited to add: I could not find anything about deflecting light in my other astronomy textbook. (Introductory astronomy & astrophysics, by Zeilik and Smith.)
 
My next best bet was to look in the astrophysics book that I myself wrote and published in 2000. Unfortunately, in the very small subchapter "Bending starlight" the only relevant bit of information is a quote from "Sky & Telescope" that the deflection predicted by Einstein is twice that predicted by Newton's theory of gravity. But that is not what I was looking for. When I wrote that chapter I must also have looked for a reference for Einstein's error, and apparently that was in vain, as I otherwise would most certainly have written one or two sentences about it in the chapter. So for now I will have to give up my search.
 
I apologize for not delivering what was promised.
 
I do have a physics textbook lost somewhere hereabouts, but it may be some time before I find it and besides I doubt that it has the information that I am looking for.
 
The more time I occupy myself with this search, the more convinced I become that I did read it somewhere, perhaps in a Dutch magazine, but long before I wrote my book, and that I tried to find it in 2000 - exhaustively - but that it was in vain. The alternative is that I am mistaken and that my memory is muddled.

< Message edited by Rule -- 10/3/2008 8:15:41 PM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:25:10 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

science are only that, theories, as in, perhaps it works this way, let's tear it apart and see if that is true.

This is profoundly incorrect and one of the oft paraded "excuses" borne of misunderstanding that get used to try and demean something consistently verifiable into the equivalent of something someone dreams up after a night of drunken debauchery.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:32:32 PM   
NumberSix


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Status: offline 		Being so profoundly incorrect, in your view,  I thought you might have given us a soliloqy on the particulars, having given us nothing else to enlighten, we leave you to your experiments.

6

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:35:39 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

Being so profoundly incorrect, in your view,  I thought you might have given us a soliloqy on the particulars, having given us nothing else to enlighten, we leave you to your experiments.

6

You're correct. Deconstruction of one point should be met with an alternative. I was sloppy.
This sums it up with more clarity than I would be able to provide with my own words:

http://www.crankypot.com/2008/04/10/scientific-theory-vs-law-and-everything-between/

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/3/2008 11:36:56 PM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:40:37 PM   
NumberSix


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Status: offline 		[is bended] ... is 1.74 arc seconds. (Very small.)
 
"In the intervening years (between eclipses) Einstein had found a mistake in his calculations, so it is probably just as well that the observations [on the first eclipse] weren't done.


Yes, I thought that was what you were going for.   Look, don't shag up a bunch of data on this, Einstein was a total failure at mathematics and had to resort to others doing his calculations (saying that, not the same sort of failure in math you and I are)

so, grab a piece of graph paper and take you a compass and from the perspective of (this is trig remember) of 91 million miles, draw 1.74 seconds of arc.

nothing has withdrawn its permission of physical law here.

strain the gnat and swallow the beam.

6  

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 6:02:41 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		For anyone actually interested in what is and isn't science and why, Stephen Jay Gould has an excellent discussion:

Sex, Drugs, Disasters, and the Extinction of Dinosaurs

While originally from "Discover," this links to someone's class assignment---skip the questions at the beginning and you'll find the entire article reprinted.

For those not interested, facts and analysis are irrelevant anyway.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/4/2008 6:03:03 AM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 6:07:28 AM   
windchymes


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Status: offline 		It's funny, this is one issue that I really can't make up my mind on.  I mean, I think organized religion has become nothing but for-profit institutions, not to mention so many of the people who hold stock...

I used to think that, oh, the beauty of the sunset, the flowers that grow, the trees that bear fruit, the miracle of the birth of a child, etc., etc., all was our proof that God existed. 

Adam and Eve lived in a garden and a snake made Eve eat an apple.  Noah led the animals, two by two, onto the enormous arc that he built himself and then the floods came.  Moses went up the mountain and came down with 10 commandments carved into stones.  (Or was it 15?.....oops, 10  )  A star shone in the heavens, three wise men rode in on camels from the east bearing gifts for the newborn savior who was born in a stable because there was no room at the inn. 

I miss the unquestioning faith I used to have, seeing it all "through the eyes of a child".  Now it all feels like it's just legends and folklore, probably based in some truth.  I feel guilty for not believing blindly.  But I don't feel it anymore.  I'm not quite athiest, but I'm a little more than agnostic.  

Do I have to be anything?  Lately, I've been feeling pretty comfortable just trying to live a good life, be good to people, be honest, don't steal things, return money that someone gave me too much of, and don't mess around with married men.  I don't believe there's a place called hell but it would be nice if there's some kind of heaven that our "souls", if we really have them, go to.  But, if it's pretty much over in 70 or 80 years and we get burned up or buried, we won't know it anyway. 

I just don't know what to believe.  I keep changing my mind. 

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 6:59:17 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Along with the Gould explanation of science above, here're Robertson Davies' musings about why people choose to believe the irrational:

A Few Kind Words for Superstition

Additionally, here's an interesting NPR piece that ran yesterday--"New research indicates that in situations in which a person is not in control, they're more likely to spot patterns where none exist, see illusions, and believe in conspiracy theories."

Do You Want to Believe?

Enjoy and Learn---two very worthwhile pursuits.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/4/2008 7:54:28 AM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 7:23:59 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I just don't know what to believe.  I keep changing my mind. 

Eh. Ditch the "lieve" part of the equation and just "be".


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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 7:28:17 AM   
bluepanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

It's funny, this is one issue that I really can't make up my mind on.  I mean, I think organized religion has become nothing but for-profit institutions, not to mention so many of the people who hold stock...

I used to think that, oh, the beauty of the sunset, the flowers that grow, the trees that bear fruit, the miracle of the birth of a child, etc., etc., all was our proof that God existed. 


You can still believe that with all your heart without having to have any kind of opinion at all on Adam, Eve, Noah, or any of  that other mythology.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 8:28:02 AM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Along with the Gould explanation of science above, here're Robertson Davies' musings about why people choose to believe the irrational:

A Few Kind Words for Superstition

Additionally, here's an interesting NPR piece that ran yesterday--"New research indicates that in situations in which a person is not in control, they're more likely to spot patterns where none exist, see illusions, and believe in conspiracy theories."

Do You Want to Believe?

Enjoy and Learn---two very worthwhile pursuits.


Thank you for the links!  I do agree that a lot of "religion" is kind of "psyching ourselves out", believing SOMETHING just to help ourselves deal with the unpleasantnesses of the average day/week/month/year, lol.

I used to know a Catholic priest who kind of went the opposite route.  He had started out studying to be a psychologist but tossed it all aside to become a priest, saying that psychology was, in his words, "a bunch of bunk."  All you need to do was believe blah blah blah blah....

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 8:29:08 AM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I just don't know what to believe.  I keep changing my mind. 

Eh. Ditch the "lieve" part of the equation and just "be".



I think that's pretty much what I'm doing now.  If I could only lose the "what if I'm wrong???" feeling.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 8:30:18 AM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

It's funny, this is one issue that I really can't make up my mind on.  I mean, I think organized religion has become nothing but for-profit institutions, not to mention so many of the people who hold stock...

I used to think that, oh, the beauty of the sunset, the flowers that grow, the trees that bear fruit, the miracle of the birth of a child, etc., etc., all was our proof that God existed. 



You can still believe that with all your heart without having to have any kind of opinion at all on Adam, Eve, Noah, or any of  that other mythology.



I'm pretty much here, too.  Is all the symmetry found in nature random accidents?  It's hard not to believe SOMETHING organized it that way, lol.


< Message edited by windchymes -- 10/4/2008 8:31:31 AM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 10:18:10 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		That's just the point, though---belief. Not testing it, not establishing it, but simply believing it, and then presenting it as truth.

You and I and everyone have believed lots of things that ultimately weren't true.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 11:18:13 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shymetalsub

Well, a simple question really. Discuss!



I'm a logical type of bloke - cautious and not particularly enamoured with abstractions - so I suppose I'd place myself firmly in the sceptical bracket. In all honesty, I really do not care; it doesn't matter to me. Chalk me down as a notremotelyinterestedist.

I listen to the athiest position on the dangers of religion, and of course they have a point, but only to an extent as religion has its benefits; not least the potential for the stability that we call crave in one form or another.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 1:21:59 PM   
bipolarber


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Status: offline 		Here's a thought: maybe we live in a universe ruled by the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum physics. (aka "Shrodingers Cat") That is, we live within an infinite universe, parallelled by an infinite number of paralel universes, one for each possible outcome of an event...

Which means that ALL possible universes are equally true. So, depending on your POV, all religions are true... somewhere, somewhen. And there are universes where NO religion is true. (There's even one out there where Scientology is more than a fraud.) And universes where cute bunnies rule over mankind with an iron fist...

So, you're all right.
So, you're all wrong.

Happy?

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 3:09:00 PM   
tweedydaddy


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Status: offline 		No one believes in God until they run out of earthly help. When there is nothing else in your corner, and no one else to turn to, then you believe.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 3:12:58 PM   
Raechard


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Status: offline 		That doesn't explain why the pope believes in God then.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 4:53:17 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		The Pope believes in God because it pays him handsomely.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/4/2008 5:50:21 PM   
MistresseLotus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shymetalsub

Well, a simple question really. Discuss!


I find those that "swear there ain't no heaven, pray there ain't no hell..."

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