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RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 2:14:00 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		OP - symbols change from generation to generation - example - women putting their hair up when they turned 16 ie. the age they became women.
We don't do that any more, the symbol is outmoded, but doesn't mean that it meant less to the people that used it.  I have a photo of my grandmother on that day that i treasure.

In the end, our symbols mean to us what they mean - and no-one else has the ability to take that meaning away from us.
Just as we can't control others actions, we can't control the way they think - sorry.

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 2:28:02 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

Yes, I know that. I was just speaking in general terms in relation to the bdsm community.


I think you'll come to find that the 'bdsm community' (no idea what that means) is a little more varied than you may think.

quote:

Oh really? Because I happen to be a year younger than you. =P


then I shouldn't have to waste any time explaining to you that there is no median or mean of this 'younger generation' and claiming that such an entity misuses symbols (or commits any action) is more than a little silly.

quote:

I feel like you took this a little out of proportion here. For instance, I don't care that collars can and are used as accessories, what I was simply saying was that it is Not an accessory for everyone, for some it is a statement about a loving and committed relationship, I can say the same about titles for that matter. No need to be so cynical about other people's lifestyles.


I'm not being cynical in the least. what I am saying is that if you have true convictions in your life - the opinions and actions of others will not cheapen them in the least.

quote:

You should really lighten up.


I wasnt' aware that I was getting upset?

quote:

Not really. Anyone can beat the shit out of anyone.


that's a rather trite statement. though I think you'll find there are far fewer women who are willing to wear bruises as a sign of their individuality than women who are willing to wear a collar or a pad lock or fishnet stockings.

quote:

I see what you're saying, it's just been my experience that the older generation versus my own seem to do things differently, as would be expected given how bdsm is not as taboo as it once was and there seems to be more diversity - and That was the only reason for my clarification.


what you'll find is that age is immaterial. everyone does it differently.

and yes, bdsm is as much of a taboo as it was. in some ways, it may be more of a taboo. sadism/masochism are still bold faced terms in the DSM-IV and certain activities are even more stigmatized. consent is ignored and some acts are viewed as being inherently abusive or misogynistic or whatever phrase self-righteous individuals feel like superimposing upon things that are none of their business (this is more often the case when it is a male dom and a female sub).


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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to Daes)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 2:52:01 PM   
Daes


Posts: 246
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: Diamond Bar, SoCal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
I think you'll come to find that the 'bdsm community' (no idea what that means) is a little more varied than you may think.


Could you stop telling me things I already understand? Was I making a general statement of things should be? No, I wasnt. And nowhere in my OP is that kind of view implied, in fact I already stated that I understand everyone goes about their relationship in whatever way works for Them. I was merely asking if anyone else felt like the way I do sometimes. Easy enough, ya?

quote:

then I shouldn't have to waste any time explaining to you that there is no median or mean of this 'younger generation' and claiming that such an entity misuses symbols (or commits any action) is more than a little silly.


Daes: "I see what you're saying, it's just been my experience that the older generation versus my own seem to do things differently, as would be expected given how bdsm is not as taboo as it once was and there seems to be more diversity - and That was the only reason for my clarification."

quote:

I'm not being cynical in the least. what I am saying is that if you have true convictions in your life - the opinions and actions of others will not cheapen them in the least.


You were cynical in insulting how others go about the lifestyle. Just because its not for you doesnt mean you need to demean it. And its definately Not cheapening it for me. >.> Was just getting others opinions on the subject, and no one else's opinion is going to change what my own collar means for me =/

quote:

I wasnt' aware that I was getting upset?


Did I say you were? No. I just said lighten up.

quote:

that's a rather trite statement. though I think you'll find there are far fewer women who are willing to wear bruises as a sign of their individuality than women who are willing to wear a collar or a pad lock or fishnet stockings.


You said bruises get the message more so than collars but well thats why youre here on collarme, isnt it? We arent talking about vanilla ppl and they are plenty of masochists on this site.

quote:

what you'll find is that age is immaterial. everyone does it differently.


Am I a broken record here? I know everyone does it differently. I made a statement based both on what I have seen, and on the generation differences, I know it does not apply to everyone.

quote:

and yes, bdsm is as much of a taboo as it was. in some ways, it may be more of a taboo. sadism/masochism are still bold faced terms in the DSM-IV and certain activities are even more stigmatized. consent is ignored and some acts are viewed as being inherently abusive or misogynistic or whatever phrase self-righteous individuals feel like superimposing upon things that are none of their business (this is more often the case when it is a male dom and a female sub).


Well that's debatable based on location and the people you surround yourself with. To be fair (and clear), I'm speaking from my own experiences here in California.

< Message edited by Daes -- 10/2/2008 3:02:46 PM >

_____________________________

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I want to be in surrender of His strength, of His power. Alone, I am nothing, but in His arms I am all things...

~His puppy~

(in reply to variation30)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 3:24:44 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

This thread is about whether you think collars, titles, even piercings, have somewhat been cheapened over the decade and have lost Some of the symbolism and meaning they may have once had.

Nope

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 3:39:04 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

I was merely asking if anyone else felt like the way I do sometimes. Easy enough, ya?


and I merely answered by saying no. Easy enough, ya?

quote:

You were cynical in insulting how others go about the lifestyle.


I was making a point that my opinions on these matters aren't dependent upon a generation or age group. as far as insulting how others go about their own lives, I was giving my opinion. if they disagree, I doubt they will care what I think just as I don't care about someone wanting to maintain the sanctity of a collar or title.

quote:

Was just getting others opinions on the subject, and no one else's opinion is going to change what my own collar means for me =/


well you have mine.

quote:

You said bruises get the message more so than collars but well thats why youre here on collarme, isnt it? We arent talking about vanilla ppl and they are plenty of masochists on this site.


I think they do. even you, who believes that collars are losing their symbolism, must agree. what does a collar tell you? not much anymore. what do hand-prints around a womans neck or finger marks dug into her shoulders tell you? much more.


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

(in reply to Daes)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 3:51:44 PM   
JewAndCelt


Posts: 110
Joined: 8/23/2008
From: Arkansas
Status: offline 		I don't think anything has been cheapened. I think what you are saying is that it seems that some people are Dom hopping and putting random collars on to suit their mood and not really thinking about what they are doing? Is that what you mean?

In my case I have no title for him. I call him Justin. When passion takes over I call him Daddy. It's just a name that slipped out one night and we ran with it. He hates "master" and "sir" makes him feel old. Lord would not work because we are both christian and frankly no title would fit him. He doesn't need a title to get my submission. He just has to be himself. Titles won't work for us - not sure why - they just always sounded funny.

I have a collar. I don't wear it all that much. He places it on me when he wants and when we play. Sometimes I go out in it and sometimes I don't. My wedding ring works as a reminder if I needed one - which I don't. There was no ceramony. He purchsed it and brought it home for me to wear. He loves it on me but doesn't see a need for it to always be in place. I don't need the collar to tell me I am owned. Plus it is a bit tacky with certain outfits (it's silver accented in clear stones) and he would prefer that I look put together.

What we (my husband and I) have is bigger than collars and titles. we have each other. We are more than all of those things. I can assure you we take none of these things lightly. His ownership of me and my service to him is all we need to get by as far as we are concerned.

Yeah I see alot of dom hopping and collar exchanges too but it doesn't mean it has cheapened my experience. I love wearing his collar and I love what we are.

_her

< Message edited by JewAndCelt -- 10/2/2008 4:02:10 PM >

_____________________________

Maturity is patience. Mastery is nine times patience.


!!!!!!כי לא נולד הבן זונה שיעצור את ישראל

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 3:58:08 PM   
mangle


Posts: 19
Status: offline 		Fast reply to the op
 
I think that the symbolism and meanings of 'objects' are subjective to each seperate person; because of that, I fail to see how they could have become cheapened or had their meanings lost somewhere.
 
 

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“If all my friends were to jump off a bridge, I wouldn't follow. I'd be at the bottom to catch them when they fall.”
Unknown

(in reply to JewAndCelt)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 5:16:45 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I grew up in one of the gay Fire Island communities in the late 60's and 70's. A time and place when the real leathermen Old Guard were in full force. I've got to say, that the collars then were lucky to make a whole season. High season being July 4th through Labor Day weekends.

People switched partners with amazing rapidity and what most of our friends talked about wasn't love and devotion and undying loyalty. It was about who was fucking whom and who they wanted to. Basically they were people like everybody else I've known, with the added drive towards promiscuity that seems so prevalent in a gay male society.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Daes)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/2/2008 8:44:54 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I kind of have a different view because I have been doing this a while.  I was submissive to my mate in a relationship because that is just the way things worked.  When Steve would say request something, even casually, I made it happen.  I was sub, before I knew what sub was.  So for me, though I was effectively his slave, there was no use of collars, or demands for titles.  He was Steve, I was myself. 
I did not need a collar or other symbol to define what we had because once he told me, you are my property.. it just was.
So when you say that symbols, titles, ect do not mean what they once did, I have to say, that they once had little meaning.
Think of it as an ebb and flow.
What once was fashionable is no longer so.  Trends change. 
I never did collars, but I was committed.  I didn't see anyone doing them, though most of the men I knew had girlfriends who acted the same as I did.
What you see symbol and meaning is what I see as a show.  Because I didn't do them or know about them until 20 yrs after my first relationship.
In a few years another trend will come along and the current crop will moan because the old ways were lost. 
It is life.
Kyst

(in reply to Daes)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/3/2008 5:03:22 AM   
lizcgirl


Posts: 287
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline 		I think I understand what you were trying to say in the OP. I put value in my collar because it represents something deeper. No, no one can cheapen it FOR me, but it does bother me when they cheapen it all the same. Like some random guy sent me an email on myspace and said he thought I wanted him to 'grab me by the collar and take control'. He thought it was hilarious, I got upset. Yes, he was ignorant, but it was the fact that he disrespected and trivialized something that means a lot to me. I've had other friends who thought nothing of reaching out and tugging on my collar, or making jokes about leading me around by it. They couldn't take away the meaning behind my collar but to me you should still respect it. It's like a wedding ring. Yes, they're becoming more or less just another ring now, but you still don't have people constantly trying to play with your wedding band or trying to take it off of you like it's a game. I believe in what my collar represents and I don't appericate it when some one who doesn't understand insults it.

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Never make some one a priority when all you are to them is an option.


(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/3/2008 5:22:59 AM   
sorrynobsownsme


Posts: 15
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		  In my opinion symbolim/meaning in anything is what you make of it just like this lifestyle or love. Be well

~sorrynobsownsme

(in reply to Daes)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/3/2008 5:54:09 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Maybe I'm getting old and cynical (*yanks up pants and sniffs a la Barney Fife*), but I think so many, many things have been cheapened and/or lost their meaning in general.  Even the words "I love you" don't seem to mean what they used to.


Cali



I agree.  I think it's partly because we now live in an "I want it all and I want it now" society. Things like collars are thrown around more freely because, oooh, I want one, too!  Phrases like "I love you" and "I adore you" do become cheapened when the one who just spoke them to you *poof* disappears the next morning.

I know I've definitely become cynical because of it. 

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/3/2008 6:13:53 AM   
lizcgirl


Posts: 287
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Maybe I'm getting old and cynical (*yanks up pants and sniffs a la Barney Fife*), but I think so many, many things have been cheapened and/or lost their meaning in general.  Even the words "I love you" don't seem to mean what they used to.


Cali



I agree.  I think it's partly because we now live in an "I want it all and I want it now" society. Things like collars are thrown around more freely because, oooh, I want one, too!  Phrases like "I love you" and "I adore you" do become cheapened when the one who just spoke them to you *poof* disappears the next morning.


I agree with this also. That's why I refuse to say 'love you too' or any of those automatic responses. I prefer something not so widely used that means as much if not more to me than 'I love you'. My favorite (which I've only used twice in my life) is "I belong to you". For me, that says 'I love you' and so much more.

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Never make some one a priority when all you are to them is an option.


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/3/2008 6:30:43 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Historically, collars had but one meaning... ownership.  Some were owned for a lifetime, others for just an evening.... the duration of that ownership was, and remains, a matter of personal choice.
 
But I cannot overlook the irony inherent to a complaint about the departure from historical symbolism/meaning from someone who is about to accept a "training collar".  Historically, "training collars" (also called "posture collars") were objects without conferring any symbolism.  But somehow I sense that the OP has assigned a certain meaning in accepting this training collar... a meaning that has been developed over the years by younger generations (the same can be said for "protection collars", "collars of consideration", etc).
 
If you were to begin a thread complaining about the evolution of collars over the years, I might be inclined to chime in.  But to do so would require a certain degree of consistency which appears to be sorely lacking in this instance.
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/3/2008 6:37:28 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Every single day people go up to Reno and get instant weddings and divorces.  So far, my wedding ring is just as precious to me as it has ever been.  Insofar as my wife's collar, my friends either already know how precious it is to me or won't take much explaining... that's why they're my friends. 

In the end, nobody can "cheapen" the symbols that I hold in my head but me.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Daes)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Losing symbolism/meaning - 10/3/2008 7:14:41 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It's only cheapened if you based the meaning of the symbol on a general social treatment of that symbol (real or imagined on your part).

I don't care what anyone else has or will do, it's my symbol and nothing will change that or what it means to me.

Which is why I often say I'm boring, I don't do stuff "cuz it's kinky."  I do stuff cuz I like it.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 36
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