Losing symbolism/meaning (Full Version)

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Daes -> Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 10:01:09 AM)

This thread is about whether you think collars, titles, even piercings, have somewhat been cheapened over the decade and have lost Some of the symbolism and meaning they may have once had.

I'll start right now by saying that I Know that these things hold meaning for most of us, especially those of us who are in relationships. And yes I Know everyone does it differently, and anyone can define it whatever way they like. What I am asking you is to make a general evaluation of how the younger generations are interpretting these things, specifically those that don't care to give it any meaning - and how it Would be nice if the sybolism and meaning behind certain gestures (such as collar giving or calling one "Master") was defined as something being given in love, and not as a fashion statement or means of getting some attention. Or how it Would be nice if slaves or subs called Their owners Sir or Master, not some random stranger they just met.

Anyone else feel like these things have been cheapened, even if only little? That these things can be given so incredibly casually?

Just Sometimes I feel like that. And I'm wondering if anyone else feels the way I do.

I suppose part of this is stemming from the fact that my Master is giving me a training collar. I cannot tell you how incredibly Happy I would be to accept His training collar. But I also feel like I wish there was more structure in the Lifestyle because I feel like no one (not even friends in the lifestyle) understand its significance to me.. and I wish I didn't have to explain it in detail, its just disappointing. For example, my friends would see a collar, just a collar, a piece of leather, and Oooh how cute it is - and thats about it. I also feel like even if I explained it, I'm pretty much the black sheep here.

Wouldnt it be nice to Not have to explain how important it is to you? Or what having (or being) a Master or slave really means to you?

Just a thought.

And I'm not by any means passing any judgment, its awesome if you get collars for fun, hell, I love'm, if you want to call someone Master who isnt your owner, it is just as well a sign of respect.

I'm just stating that sometimes I feel its meaning is cheapened, and sometimes that can feel a bit disappointing. So was wondering if anyone else shared these feelings.



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 10:11:59 AM)

In some eyes, wedding rings have been cheapened as well. My exhusband is on fiancee #4, handing out engagement rings like the were candy. People look at marriage as an unnecessary contract with the state instead of a cherished vow between people.
No matter what the symbol is, someone has found a way to cheapen it. It happens all the time.
Hrll, it has even happened with things as out there as martial arts rankings. It used ot be that someone who had a black belt was a highly trained martial artist recognized for their accomplishments. Now, with the number of schools cropping up and the PC notion that saying no to someone is going to somehow destroy them, you can buy your way to a black belt eith or without the hard work necessary to get there. Not that all, or even more do... but as long as it is possible, all black belts become suspect until they have proven their abilities (I saw this at tournaments all the time)

The point is not what the symbols mean to the world at large. Personally, I enjoy explaining what Fox's collar means to me. It is yet another chance for me to talk about how personally important he is and what lengths I will and have gone to to make sure he knows it.  I also have no problem making it pretty well known that I dont care if anyone else shares my views on that collar. Symbolism should be personal, if it is undestood outside the relationship thats great, but if it isnt thats fine too. AS long as the person wearing the collar or answering to the name understands what it means between you thats all that matters. Everyone else can and will judge as they see fit.
As some on here say, mileage will vary by user.

DV



Daes -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 10:19:36 AM)

Thats very true. Thank you very much.



SlaveIndigochild -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 10:24:53 AM)

quote:

This thread is about whether you think collars, titles, even piercings, have somewhat been cheapened over the decade and have lost Some of the symbolism and meaning they may have once had.

They never had a meaning in the sociological sense did they? Only in the personal psychological? therefore yes and no as an answer. I have been collared and it meant next to nothing: was easily given and i easily released myself as a consequence. That was the subject of a long and interesting thread.
This time round We have a running order; contract in blood, total submersion baptism, branding, collar, marriage. so i'm in a process which will be hard fought for and represent a great deal of service.
You get what you give.....and actually i'm only vaguely interested in what they mean outside of Our dynamic as this would be passing a judgment on what a collar means to someone else. fascinated about what it means to Him though.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 10:38:22 AM)

Honestly, I think that "symbolism" is a very personal thing. While it may be nice for there to be common symbols of certain communities, even communities evolve and symbols can lose their impact for the larger or newer members of a population, but that -doesn't- have to destroy the symbolism for those who still hold on to that representation and its meaning. It really is completely irrelevant whether someone -else- recognizes the symbolism of the things that I have around me -- what is important is whether those things retain their symbolism for me.

As an example, I have two tattoos - both of those hold a particular symbolism for me that I still hold as relevant to me. To look at them, nobody else might grasp what they mean to me, but that doesn't reduce their symbolic value in my mind.

In the same way, if a collar or wedding band, or whatever has symbolism for you, whether or not someone else accepts that symbolism is, I think, irrelevant to the symbol's purpose, which is to remind you of what that symbol represents.

Calla Firestorm



Dnomyar -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 10:46:11 AM)

Symbolism in anything is a Fad that comes and goes and comes.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 11:08:28 AM)

quote:

...Anyone else feel like these things have been cheapened, even if only little? That these things can be given so incredibly casually?

 
some folks are of the opinion that anything "rare" is of more value.
 
it is this slave's opinion that value, like beauty and symbolism, is in the eye of the beholder and that just because something is "rare" doesn't necessarily and automatically make it more valuable, more beautiful or imbued with symbolic meaning.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 11:16:37 AM)

All I know is that when I was mentored this morning after having been in the scene for for at least 72 hours, collars just don't mean what they used to.

I mean back when the old guard leatherman invented glory holes so one guy could stick his dick through a hole and another man he couldn't even see let alone know could walk up and suck an anonymous cock.  Back then collars meant something and now, they are just used by people for a night or a lifetime.   Come on people, read Townsends book on "handbook for leatherman" and then as now, some took things as having deep meaning and some didn't.  Just as now, there are people for whom their collar holds as deep or deeper meaning than their wedding rings and for others, it is simply a cool piece of jewelry.

Not only that, those who scream loudest about meaning often provide the least genuine meaning anyway.



Ialdabaoth -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 11:24:26 AM)

Objects do not have meaning; we imbue them with meaning.  Humans are symbol-generating machines; we imbue meaning into everything we do - and we can choose what meaning to imbue. Culture and history provide a rich symbol-set of shared meaning to glean from, if our goal is quick communication with outsiders. But once we have established intimacy with another human, a strong part of that intimacy is the capacity to share in the process of creating new meaning, and imparting it upon the world.

You have a great deal of power to choose how much or how little anything 'means' to you. Regrettably, you have substantially less power to choose how much or how little 'meaning' is imbued into an object by culture and history. But! You aren't powerless - you can act to guide culture towards sharing your meaning, just as culture acts to guide you towards sharing its meaning. One useful trick is to display your meaning proudly, even in the face of adversity - others will see and respect your meaning, and want to be a part of the mindset that produced that meaning. And once several people share a mindset and imbue new meaning together, that shared mindset becomes a new subculture, and can challenge or influence the main culture.

Rephrased in less lurid prose: Make your own meaning, show off that meaning publically and proudly, and people will notice. And when they like what they see, they will start sharing that meaning, and if enough of them share that individual meaning then it becomes part of the cultural meaning again.

Does this make sense?



CalifChick -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 11:42:49 AM)

Maybe I'm getting old and cynical (*yanks up pants and sniffs a la Barney Fife*), but I think so many, many things have been cheapened and/or lost their meaning in general.  Even the words "I love you" don't seem to mean what they used to.


Cali



RealSub58 -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 11:49:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

This thread is about whether you think collars YES, titles YES, even piercings  YES, have somewhat been cheapened over the decade and have lost Some of the symbolism and meaning they may have once had.




MasterFireMaam -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 12:06:48 PM)

Just because these things have lost, or are loosing, their 'different-ness' or 'shock value' doesn't mean they have less meaning. It simply means they are becoming more common. Rare does equal valuable, but so does beauty.

Master Fire



LaTigresse -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 12:20:26 PM)

Material items, as symbols, are nothing to me. I don't really have much sentimental attachment to objects. Unless they also have either, serious financial value or are irreplacable.

Example: I have some jewelry that I would be upset at losing. I cannot easily replace much of my stuff, either because it is extremely valuable and I am not wealthy, or moreso, because of its unique properties that would be hard to find, either stone or specific artist.

Or, my grandmother's antique 16th century blanket chest she left me with original finish. Difficult to find another and completely out of my price range if I did. The thing has its own insurance policy.

But aside from examples like that, a generic ring or other symbolic item means nothing. It is the intent of the people that gave and received, that is priceless and meaningful.



Daes -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 12:29:22 PM)

MasterFireMaam: Though I understand what you are saying - if you look back over my OP, this is not about shock value or things becoming more common. Its more or less about things that uesd to have significance, now used very very casually, like a fashion accessory, or for attention. Not saying its wrong, was just seeing if anyone shared my opinion that its been cheapened in its general value to the new generation in the lifestyle Since its being used so casually.



RCdc -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 1:09:01 PM)

Some people do not attatch emotional and physical meanings to materialistic posessions.  Where you find the meaning is cheapened, I find it cheapened by placing it into an idol.  It's just down to personal preference and it happens in all things and walks of life, not just BDSM.
 
the.dark.



variation30 -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 1:12:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

This thread is about whether you think collars, titles, even piercings, have somewhat been cheapened over the decade and have lost Some of the symbolism and meaning they may have once had.


even the most banal symbols can hold an undefinable amount of meaning to individuals. e.g. flags, wedding bands, children's drawings, etc.

so no, these things cannot lose symbolism as they don't inherently have them...though an individual can have their feelings about such things fade because they think it's become popular or misused or they used it to be different and now they feel like they have to use something else to represent their individuality and respect for personal freedom (like a snakeskin jacket).

quote:

What I am asking you is to make a general evaluation of how the younger generations are interpretting these things, specifically those that don't care to give it any meaning - and how it Would be nice if the sybolism and meaning behind certain gestures (such as collar giving or calling one "Master") was defined as something being given in love, and not as a fashion statement or means of getting some attention. Or how it Would be nice if slaves or subs called Their owners Sir or Master, not some random stranger they just met.


I'm guessing I'm a part of this 'younger generation' whatever the hell that means so I suppose I can speak for all of us as it appears that we are an actual entity that can act and hold opinions.

as the voice of the younger generation, let me tell you what we think on a variety of subjects:

collars: in the privacy of the home, it has it's aesthetic qualities but we all like a belt around the neck a lot more. we like the improvised feel of taking an everyday object and using it as a tool of degredation (and strangulation). as far as wearing collars in public, we think it is tacky. we like for our women to look better than all other women and this includes dressing better than all other women. collars are not part of that uniform. leave that to the kids who want to be...individuals by matching their collar with their black mascara.

titles: we don't need specialized titles to know we are respected or adored. nor do we need them to point out the uniqueness of our relationships. save that shit for the renaissance fair.

piercings: we like gender appropriate peircings. that is to say no piercings on men and moderate piercings on women.

collar giving: do we really need to hold a ceremony to make something 'official'? we think not. the whole thing seems rather...affected to us.

calling someone master: we have names. demanding to be called 'master' or 'mistress/goddess' is cheesy. we dont' need that kind of validation. it's like trying to give yourself a nickname. a title doesn't denote dominance or subordinance, what your woman (or man) thinks of you denotes that.

quote:

Anyone else feel like these things have been cheapened, even if only little? That these things can be given so incredibly casually?


don't blame us. we never received the "Proper BDSM Philosophy and Etiquette" manuals so we just don't know which are the correct ways to act.


quote:

I feel like no one (not even friends in the lifestyle) understand its significance to me.. and I wish I didn't have to explain it in detail, its just disappointing. For example, my friends would see a collar, just a collar, a piece of leather, and Oooh how cute it is


bruises get the message across much more cleanly.

quote:

Wouldnt it be nice to Not have to explain how important it is to you?


no, that would not be nice as it would mean that the way you feel about a collar would be the exact same as how anyone else wearing a collar would feel about that relationship. sorry, I'd want my own personal symbols to mean something to my woman that no other person in the history of people has ever experienced.

also, substitute all the collective pronouns with personal pronouns in the post. there is no 'we' or 'younger generation'



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 1:40:06 PM)

Hi Daes, I understand your frustration with wanting people to comprehend how important something is to you. 

The symbolism behind an object is often lost on an individual that doesn't have any knowledge of the history or expression of the object. 

For example, to those outside of the catholic church, certain religious icons have no value or meaning at all; and yet for those who do feel strongly for the symbolism attached to the religious icon, it can have quite a powerful influence over them.

I'm not sure that I think someone can cheapen, what they do not comprehend or have no knowledge of.  Neither am I certain that I'd want a regulated or delineated definition of the symbology of any particular object or expression because it wouldn't be personalized.  I'm pretty sure that even if there were more structure, and stylized expectations, that the nature of the non-comformist would demand that the limit of the structure be tested and challenged.  I think the reason 'the younger generations' get blamed more often for this, is simply because they have a world of unexplored before them and often seem to want to define for 'themselves' what symbology is to them and often, they are challening the limits and structure of sytlized expectations as they see them. 



kiwisub12 -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 2:08:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Maybe I'm getting old and cynical (*yanks up pants and sniffs a la Barney Fife*), but I think so many, many things have been cheapened and/or lost their meaning in general.  Even the words "I love you" don't seem to mean what they used to.


Cali




Sorry Cali - i think this means you are getting old. * runs as Cali pulls her bullet out of her shirt pocket*



LaTigresse -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 2:13:02 PM)

Another thing I was thinking of. If something has value to you, how can anyone else cheapen it for you?



Daes -> RE: Losing symbolism/meaning (10/2/2008 2:13:08 PM)

quote:

even the most banal symbols can hold an undefinable amount of meaning to individuals. e.g. flags, wedding bands, children's drawings, etc.

so no, these things cannot lose symbolism as they don't inherently have them...though an individual can have their feelings about such things fade because they think it's become popular or misused or they used it to be different and now they feel like they have to use something else to represent their individuality and respect for personal freedom (like a snakeskin jacket).


Yes, I know that. I was just speaking in general terms in relation to the bdsm community.

quote:

I'm guessing I'm a part of this 'younger generation' whatever the hell that means so I suppose I can speak for all of us as it appears that we are an actual entity that can act and hold opinions.

as the voice of the younger generation, let me tell you what we think on a variety of subjects:


Oh really? Because I happen to be a year younger than you. =P

quote:

collars: in the privacy of the home, it has it's aesthetic qualities but we all like a belt around the neck a lot more. we like the improvised feel of taking an everyday object and using it as a tool of degredation (and strangulation). as far as wearing collars in public, we think it is tacky. we like for our women to look better than all other women and this includes dressing better than all other women. collars are not part of that uniform. leave that to the kids who want to be...individuals by matching their collar with their black mascara.

titles: we don't need specialized titles to know we are respected or adored. nor do we need them to point out the uniqueness of our relationships. save that shit for the renaissance fair.

piercings: we like gender appropriate peircings. that is to say no piercings on men and moderate piercings on women.

collar giving: do we really need to hold a ceremony to make something 'official'? we think not. the whole thing seems rather...affected to us.

calling someone master: we have names. demanding to be called 'master' or 'mistress/goddess' is cheesy. we dont' need that kind of validation. it's like trying to give yourself a nickname. a title doesn't denote dominance or subordinance, what your woman (or man) thinks of you denotes that.


I feel like you took this a little out of proportion here. For instance, I don't care that collars can and are used as accessories, what I was simply saying was that it is Not an accessory for everyone, for some it is a statement about a loving and committed relationship, I can say the same about titles for that matter. No need to be so cynical about other people's lifestyles.

quote:

don't blame us. we never received the "Proper BDSM Philosophy and Etiquette" manuals so we just don't know which are the correct ways to act.


Blame? Where did that come from? You act like I'm chastizing everyone who doesn't see things like I do, and I'm not. I was only gathering opinions. You should really lighten up.

quote:

bruises get the message across much more cleanly.


Not really. Anyone can beat the shit out of anyone.

quote:

no, that would not be nice as it would mean that the way you feel about a collar would be the exact same as how anyone else wearing a collar would feel about that relationship. sorry, I'd want my own personal symbols to mean something to my woman that no other person in the history of people has ever experienced.


Again, not necessarily.  In my case, it is simply a symbol of where the relationship is, and how that is defined and what it means to those involved depends on the couple. A symbol can mean anything and be anything. Who says its the same for everyone?

quote:

also, substitute all the collective pronouns with personal pronouns in the post. there is no 'we' or 'younger generation'


I see what you're saying, it's just been my experience that the older generation versus my own seem to do things differently, as would be expected given how bdsm is not as taboo as it once was and there seems to be more diversity - and That was the only reason for my clarification.



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