RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street

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rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/2/2008 10:24:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni Defeatist. metaphor? ever heard of it? train=housing bail out bullshit. big train=congress, midterm elections, enough people angry enough to make a difference for once. And the conspiracy, blame game garbage is half of the problem. Its every ones fault. mine and yours included. metaphors I use them all the time, however, I had no indication of what you were talking about in terms of the big train, there was little connection. Trully it isn't my fault, I have a mortgage, but it isn't through a bank. It's with a person, and we pay them like a bank at a fixed interest rate. I walk most places mind you. I support Ron Paul. I have in the past have lived without electricity for months, and the thought never occurred to me to beg the government for money. Anyway, don't blame my ass, I buy new overstock stuff, demos, and returns and fix more of the returns than I'll ever consume. My carbon footprint is negative, without a doubt and that is a choice. I'm working on converting a room in my building, to grow some of own my food even, to try to break away more from the system. The Problem is I'm one of very few that are actually trying to break the system, via actions. Fuck what do you want me to do. And yes, I can blame people, because people in general don't give a shit until they lose something, very selfish reasoning, and that is the only reason most here care about it now, is because "THEY" might lose something, when they should have been thinking of the structure of it all long ago, and the equitable treatment, philosophy,etc... Anyway, as far as booting congress out, that is little solace, once the deed is done. I won't vote against them though, I just won't vote unless there is a better alternative. I actually admire your actions, I really do. If I could find someone who was decent and would front a mortgage, I would avoid a bank as well. I ride my bike alot, and places I can not get to, I make sure the trip is for more than one thing. I don't want you do anything, I just think it is all of our problems, whether you agree or not. thats my 2 cents, have a nice night.

Termyn8or -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/2/2008 10:36:02 PM)
People just don't get it. WEALTH IS OURS. However, people never seem to grow to understand what overstretched or overextended means. The Romans didn't and look what happened to them. It is coming because like the Romans, we will not stop. Because we do not educate correctly we get the results we got. Couples having nine kids screwed it up. Even if each go on to a productive life the demand is created. In any case in human society there will be "organisers" who figure out how to get a piece of the profit on a large scale. This has been going on forever. I would agree that it has taken a nastier trend lately, but it is still the same thing, greed. I was taught that the idea of starting a business was to get it running well enough, with enough people you can trust, and walk out and keep collecting. If you need more money, go start another business. You can do this again and again, and only see any of the businesses you started infrequently. When this model is applied to the Ponzi schemes of the financial markets, disaster occurs. In the end, what does this whole game depend on for sustainence ? Us. In the past it was a population explosion, people would invest in the future, here in the US. It was convenient and it made sense. The consumerism of those decades was driven by a general prosperity as well as the sense thereof. People bought their new toys with savings, but they usually bought quality products which lasted. When people started buying imported goods, which they did for the pure and simple reason of price, they told the bankers and financiers what they wanted. They told the TV and car manufacturers what they wanted. That world, the same world with perhaps one third of the population, how much demand would there be for food, gas, electricity, roads, infrastructure and last but not least, leibeschraum ? And now every person has to have their own phone, ipod, computer, car, and sometimes house. This created a demand that those "organisers" were actually helpful in providing years ago. But things have changed. The fact still remains, we made ourselves a target for this. There is no getting out of it. You can blame earlier generations because they are at fault. But who taught them ? And who taught those who taught them ? You can take this back to the dawn of time. Some people say not to focus on how we got here, but if we want to get out, I think that is exactly what we should be thinking about. It's not about an election or the fact that the money printing presses will again run. It is about the trend. We need to stop. We need to stop buying this junk, and possibly even do without. I mean lots of us. Don't buy anything new, all used. Stop them in their tracks. Do your Christmas shopping at a thrift store, with an eye open for the unusual of course. Look in a local paper, maybe even eBay if you dare. Nothing new, always used and already located in this country. Other things, get by on as little as you can, even if your can full of money keeps growing. Get essentials. Whatever you do, do not buy a non-essential item new. Make it a point not to do so. We have the power to decrease the demand. That is what the layman can do. T

Lorr47 -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/2/2008 10:43:31 PM)
Under obstruction of justice we can add the fact that the Wall Street Portfolio managers will be given $50B bundles of derivatives to manage. These same managers created the derivatives and created this mess. Can the government spell "conflict of interest?" If there was any chance we could trace the wrongdoers, there certainly will not be any chance after they mess with them a second time. Additionally, buying the derivitives for a price higher than market value (which is assumed) is criminal.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/2/2008 11:19:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or People just don't get it. WEALTH IS OURS. However, people never seem to grow to understand what overstretched or overextended means. The Romans didn't and look what happened to them. It is coming because like the Romans, we will not stop. Because we do not educate correctly we get the results we got. Couples having nine kids screwed it up. Even if each go on to a productive life the demand is created. In any case in human society there will be "organisers" who figure out how to get a piece of the profit on a large scale. This has been going on forever. I would agree that it has taken a nastier trend lately, but it is still the same thing, greed. I was taught that the idea of starting a business was to get it running well enough, with enough people you can trust, and walk out and keep collecting. If you need more money, go start another business. You can do this again and again, and only see any of the businesses you started infrequently. When this model is applied to the Ponzi schemes of the financial markets, disaster occurs. In the end, what does this whole game depend on for sustainence ? Us. In the past it was a population explosion, people would invest in the future, here in the US. It was convenient and it made sense. The consumerism of those decades was driven by a general prosperity as well as the sense thereof. People bought their new toys with savings, but they usually bought quality products which lasted. When people started buying imported goods, which they did for the pure and simple reason of price, they told the bankers and financiers what they wanted. They told the TV and car manufacturers what they wanted. That world, the same world with perhaps one third of the population, how much demand would there be for food, gas, electricity, roads, infrastructure and last but not least, leibeschraum ? And now every person has to have their own phone, ipod, computer, car, and sometimes house. This created a demand that those "organisers" were actually helpful in providing years ago. But things have changed. The fact still remains, we made ourselves a target for this. There is no getting out of it. You can blame earlier generations because they are at fault. But who taught them ? And who taught those who taught them ? You can take this back to the dawn of time. Some people say not to focus on how we got here, but if we want to get out, I think that is exactly what we should be thinking about. It's not about an election or the fact that the money printing presses will again run. It is about the trend. We need to stop. We need to stop buying this junk, and possibly even do without. I mean lots of us. Don't buy anything new, all used. Stop them in their tracks. Do your Christmas shopping at a thrift store, with an eye open for the unusual of course. Look in a local paper, maybe even eBay if you dare. Nothing new, always used and already located in this country. Other things, get by on as little as you can, even if your can full of money keeps growing. Get essentials. Whatever you do, do not buy a non-essential item new. Make it a point not to do so. We have the power to decrease the demand. That is what the layman can do. T This is my next internet project, I'm going to do. Here's the idea. I have a large building I use for getting my stuff to sell and store it, about 20,000 square feet. However, my interests are divergent in nature, and thus I do some web programming to, which I found if I applied myself I could make a full time income from. So, I have a few resources, Building Space, knowledge of E-commerce, and good enough programming knowledge to build decent web applications. So, here's the idea. People that are local oriented generally don't have a regular place to sell their stuff, as in artists, repair people, laymen mechanics ect.. They are lacking an outlet that is easy to find. Also, people that sell stuff erratically generally do so by having a rummage sale, or throwing a for sale sign on there car, again not ideal. Thus my thought is to form a central hub, in the real world for these people to use as a central selling point. So, let's say you want to sell your car, and want to sell it to where it would get more exposure and people would be looking for cars and other used, or custom stuff, you could pay a very reasonable rate per month and park the car here. You could leave the keys even if you wanted to allow test drives. Or let's say you fix lawnmowers, however, you don't do enough business to afford a location, and you can't afford to advertise yoru service much, so you'd store and price your fixed lawnmowers here. Lot's of people do stuff like that. They are just spread out all over the place and no one knows them so they head off to Wal-Mart. So, the synergy is in getting people that have different talents, products or services to locate together. Only local people mind you. Small locally owned. only. Next step is, well, let's say you have a small business like a pawn shop for example, you probably want your own location, but know one knows what you have generally. So, I build a application that allows anyone in the area, to upload their inventory, and location. Now all the stuff at my location will be up there to, but anyone can upload they just have to be local. Now, when you search if none is available through my network, then it will default over to searching on ebay with local search options(commision for me), and if nothing results from their it defaults to the big merchants. So, you'll always find the item, it's just with a huge preference towards the local. Advantages, promotes reuse, keeps local money local, degrades import spending, promotes individuals desiring to open a business a permanent location for offering a service or product(art, repaired stuff, services, whatever). Now, the next stage would be, the loaner network, once the above was established to a fair degree. As most people have a pressure washer for example, or a weed wacker, or a chainsaw, or hammerdrill they rarely use. So, you could bring that item here, and I'd rent it for you. You could set the price, and I'd take a credit card deposit, to cover if they completely fucked it up. So, instead of ten houses needing ten pressure washers, I'd rent you one for like 15.00/day, and the actual owner would get 11.00 dollars against the cost of the washer, I'd pocket 4.00. As a person builds good credit(returning the item in good condition), they'd work down the rental costs to like ten because of trust. Or a person could simply apply there Pressure loaning credits to rent a chain saw, or big jack hammer. This would reduce the consumption level and increase useful item availablity. Difference between current concepts like craigslist, etc... Is the centralized physical Hub location where the local exchanges would take place. Also, the synergy of bringing like minded people together would foster initial trades, and spread the name of the business quickly at zero cost.

Aneirin -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 2:52:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or People just don't get it. WEALTH IS OURS. However, people never seem to grow to understand what overstretched or overextended means. The Romans didn't and look what happened to them. It is coming because like the Romans, we will not stop. Because we do not educate correctly we get the results we got. Couples having nine kids screwed it up. Even if each go on to a productive life the demand is created. In any case in human society there will be "organisers" who figure out how to get a piece of the profit on a large scale. This has been going on forever. I would agree that it has taken a nastier trend lately, but it is still the same thing, greed. I was taught that the idea of starting a business was to get it running well enough, with enough people you can trust, and walk out and keep collecting. If you need more money, go start another business. You can do this again and again, and only see any of the businesses you started infrequently. When this model is applied to the Ponzi schemes of the financial markets, disaster occurs. In the end, what does this whole game depend on for sustainence ? Us. In the past it was a population explosion, people would invest in the future, here in the US. It was convenient and it made sense. The consumerism of those decades was driven by a general prosperity as well as the sense thereof. People bought their new toys with savings, but they usually bought quality products which lasted. When people started buying imported goods, which they did for the pure and simple reason of price, they told the bankers and financiers what they wanted. They told the TV and car manufacturers what they wanted. That world, the same world with perhaps one third of the population, how much demand would there be for food, gas, electricity, roads, infrastructure and last but not least, leibeschraum ? And now every person has to have their own phone, ipod, computer, car, and sometimes house. This created a demand that those "organisers" were actually helpful in providing years ago. But things have changed. The fact still remains, we made ourselves a target for this. There is no getting out of it. You can blame earlier generations because they are at fault. But who taught them ? And who taught those who taught them ? You can take this back to the dawn of time. Some people say not to focus on how we got here, but if we want to get out, I think that is exactly what we should be thinking about. It's not about an election or the fact that the money printing presses will again run. It is about the trend. We need to stop. We need to stop buying this junk, and possibly even do without. I mean lots of us. Don't buy anything new, all used. Stop them in their tracks. Do your Christmas shopping at a thrift store, with an eye open for the unusual of course. Look in a local paper, maybe even eBay if you dare. Nothing new, always used and already located in this country. Other things, get by on as little as you can, even if your can full of money keeps growing. Get essentials. Whatever you do, do not buy a non-essential item new. Make it a point not to do so. We have the power to decrease the demand. That is what the layman can do. T Hahaha, I already do, I positively loathe having to buy an item new, because at pre owned prices, the thing that I buy is at it's real price, ie the price that a seller is happy to sell for. I also seek out broken things or things cast off by others thinking they are broken, but what I have found is the average user has not one jot of a clue about their expensive item beyond using it, it does'nt work, as with our throw away society, chuck it away and buy another. I am a repairman by professional trade, I repair anything and sometimes despite my new direction, I just cannot help getting hold of something broken and fixing it, just for the fun of it, in fact I positively abhor the throw away mentality and I rescue all sorts of stuff, repair and rennovate and then give it away, this last weekend, two Epson multifunction printers, fault corrected and machines serviced and set up, and they went with ink in the cartridges. If we as a people discard this 'chuck it away and buy a new one ' mentality, we would go back to how it was, where items were repaired by repair people. Now before you say it is the labour costs that effectively kill a repair, note this, the more repairs that come in, thus keeping a workforce busy repairing, the labour costs should come down, as the living will be made by the more work coming in. For example, an electric drill with a burnt out motor, new field, armature and brushes, stripped out, cleaned and new parts fitted and tested, twenty minutes to half an hour for the repair, half hours labour plus parts, and parts can be got very cheap, the whole job at less than half the price of a new drill. In fact, it is the cheap foreign crap that has created the chuck it away mentality. Cheap foreign crap is often built to such low standards, it self destructs in a short while, usually just after the guarantee period, so one has to buy a new one and today such crap is loaded with such useless peripherals and gadgets, to entice the customer into thinking the new item is worth it, because it can do more. Why want something to do more when you only wanted it to do one thing, we are being conned. You want to drill a hole, go and hire a drill, that way you get a far superior machine, which you can give back dirty, no mess and clutter about the house. Buy a cheap drill, and quite often it is not up to the job and you waste your money. If you must have tools about the house for those little jobs, what is wrong with hand tools, or are we so lazy now we cannot invest the effort in developing the minimum amount of skill to use the thing, anyone can learn to use a screw driver , saw and hand drill, it is not rocket science.

corysub -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 3:18:11 AM)
And so as we viewed those wonderful pictures of well dressed, optimistic, growing materialistic Chinese, the solution suggested for America is to buy Mao jackets and used clothes and items on eBay and assume the look of the "Great Leap Forward" days of China...or worse, the current look of North Korea. Why stop there...lets just have a central government that knows what is good for us. A government that will control how we spend money, how many children we have, where we can go to school and work, control all industry and agriculture and work together as a community of Americans giving each of us what we need. Hey..lets call this system replacing our democracy something...like..well..lets see....I've got it...Communism!

TNstepsout -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 5:54:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Other things, get by on as little as you can, even if your can full of money keeps growing. Get essentials. Whatever you do, do not buy a non-essential item new. Make it a point not to do so. We have the power to decrease the demand. That is what the layman can do. T You know, I agree with you completely on a personal level. This is the way we all need to learn to live to be responsible and live within our means and avoid the debt meltdown we are experiencing. However, can you imagine if everyone started to live this way what it would do to the economy? Just imagine all the millions of jobs that are created through non-essential goods. If all of those jobs were eliminated we would end up with 50-75% unemployment. How could we possibly cope with that? While I agree that excess consumerism has fueled the position we are in today, I don't think we should eliminate it completely. We just need to reign it in to more reasonable, acceptable levels that correspond to the real state of our growth, not some false pretend level achieved through debt.

Termyn8or -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 6:57:14 AM)
Since my last post - agreed ALL. The 50% unemployment, hmmm, what did I say, one third of the current population ? That would mean 16.66% unemployment. So, yes it is too late to go back. At least completely back. Without mass exterminations we are kind of stuck with problems that are alot more complex. Alot of people don't like mass exterminations. Somehow then we need to solve the problems under extant conditions. Repair, reuse, recycle, rebuild, refurbish, resell, these are all good things. The problem is that the design of most of the junk people buy makes it difficult if not impossible. Parts are either unavailable or exceedingly expensive, and even instructions on how to take something apart has become an industry secret. So let's assume this is the way to go, just realizing that we can only go so far. Most people don't realize that we actually import over 50% of our food now, and have for a few years. Realizing that we can't eliminate imports altogether is important, because that, to any reasonable person indicates that somewhere along the line we must export something. Something other than money. That's why I say let the bankers get in the unemployment line. Their credit, along with the stupidity of the people created this mess. While we can't control what they do, we can control what we do. With the lack of credit, people will be forced to adjust. Some of us are ready, some are not. Let people realize what isimportant, instead of camping out in line in front of a Best Buy all night to be in line to get the newest version of the PS2, or 3 or whatever, or the Xbox, or the Wii. Let people find out what's real. T

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 7:09:31 AM)
The only thing I buy new anymore is socks and underwear. I've got 4 pairs of shoes that will a lonnnggg time. I have also seen an awesome model of how a group of friends can share a home, and make it eco friendly and cheap to live. (http://verdant.net/sharedhousing.htm) Anti consumerism and voting people who are vastly different will save this nation, but it will take time.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 10:13:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: corysub And so as we viewed those wonderful pictures of well dressed, optimistic, growing materialistic Chinese, the solution suggested for America is to buy Mao jackets and used clothes and items on eBay and assume the look of the "Great Leap Forward" days of China...or worse, the current look of North Korea. Why stop there...lets just have a central government that knows what is good for us. A government that will control how we spend money, how many children we have, where we can go to school and work, control all industry and agriculture and work together as a community of Americans giving each of us what we need. Hey..lets call this system replacing our democracy something...like..well..lets see....I've got it...Communism! Wow, put down the pipe, no one is suggesting mandating anything. Anyway, it is perfectly healthy and rational to try to consume less, or make that consumption more efficient. As if you want a TV Stand, printer, dvd player, washer, dryer, etc... Why not look for a used one first, buying a new one, simply adds to the trade deficit and raw materials usage. It would be different if we made any of those things here. Then you'd have an economic argument for more consumption. Anyway, I don't think anyone is suggesting a mandate or even government intervention, but rather a way for those that want to save, and safeguard themselves a way to do it, in an earth positive and community positive way. Where you get communism from is beyond me. Self-reliance is the polar opposite of group reliance which is the core of communism.

Termyn8or -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 12:49:01 PM)
"Cities are where people live off each other" My Father, 2006 or so. T

tweedydaddy -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 4:33:14 PM)
One reason to do it. If you don't do it, your entire financial and social structure will collapse and you will create a mess that will take decades to recover, if you ever do. Any society is only three missed meals away from anarchy.

UncleNasty -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 6:11:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy Any society is only three missed meals away from anarchy. I like that. Not the idea or reality of it, but the clarity of the words. Uncle Nasty

kinkbound -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 10:39:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou What's next, martial law? Giving control of the currency to a private corporation. Oh wait that already happen, how about a hyper out of control military that is spread all over the planet, scratch that to already happened. Hmmm, this is hard, oh, the government taking control of most of the mortgages in some kind of psuedo fascist state, damn they already did that with fannie and freddie. Domestic spying? Well, shit that is already done. Sanctioned Torture, well that is already a done deal. Oh backing corporate risk, oh wait, they did that multiple times already. Oh, I know, you are refering to them wiping their ass with the constitution. I mean it is pretty much a useless document now, it's not living and breathing, it's dead. They just ignore it. Honestly there is not much left, the RNC convention and the rounding up of independent journalists, proved Freedom of the Press is dead, among other events, except for the non-news of the CBS variety, which is hardly hard hitting journalism. All good points, though I hadn't heard about the independent journalists round up at the RNC.

kinkbound -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 10:54:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bestbabync quote: ORIGINAL: kinkbound My prediction is that this thread won't go far, because it doesn't give enough opportunity for either the left or the right to point the finger at each other. Without the typical regression to polarization, the usual suspects won't be interested. oh true so true![:)] It's nice to see a thread with political potential move along without the typical polarization nonsense after all.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/3/2008 11:17:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kinkbound quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou What's next, martial law? Giving control of the currency to a private corporation. Oh wait that already happen, how about a hyper out of control military that is spread all over the planet, scratch that to already happened. Hmmm, this is hard, oh, the government taking control of most of the mortgages in some kind of psuedo fascist state, damn they already did that with fannie and freddie. Domestic spying? Well, shit that is already done. Sanctioned Torture, well that is already a done deal. Oh backing corporate risk, oh wait, they did that multiple times already. Oh, I know, you are refering to them wiping their ass with the constitution. I mean it is pretty much a useless document now, it's not living and breathing, it's dead. They just ignore it. Honestly there is not much left, the RNC convention and the rounding up of independent journalists, proved Freedom of the Press is dead, among other events, except for the non-news of the CBS variety, which is hardly hard hitting journalism. All good points, though I hadn't heard about the independent journalists round up at the RNC. They raided a bunch of groups that record events, that are likely to involve police. They also arrested the democracyNow.org producer, and when amy goodman(believe that's her name), inquired they arrested her to. They've since dropped the charges, even when it was happening it was obvious it was just to detain them so they couldn't report. They said they could hold them for 36 hours. LOL. Well, in 36 hours the stories over, thus, if the police are rounding up independent journalist some of which had press passes to enter the convention, whenever they covered the protests, I'd say that means freedom of the press is being supressed, I mean they have press badges and cameras following them, it's pretty obvious they are press and all that. yeah, I don't know if they reported it on CNN, or any of the cable news networks, but they should of, as fucking with the press is as bad as anything else they could screw with.

MmeGigs -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/4/2008 7:13:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I doubt we can stop it. What to do tho as a lay man. Now I guess we've got to start pushing on them to fix it. Get regulations in place, get a transparent oversight system in place, show us that they knew what they were doing and that this can be made to work. Contacting them directly doesn't work all that well, but it's still a good idea. Letters to the editor are more likely to get their attention.

MmeGigs -> RE: Ten Reasons not to Bail Out Wall Street (10/4/2008 7:33:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy One reason to do it. If you don't do it, your entire financial and social structure will collapse and you will create a mess that will take decades to recover, if you ever do. Yeah, we've heard a lot of that, but no one who voted for it has exlained why this is the one and only possible solution. What else did they consider? Why did they choose this solution? How are they going to manage it? Are they working on controls and regulations? If so, why didn't they wait to get some of them in place before agreeing to pump a lot of money into this? Now that the money has been approved, the pressure's off. They aren't going to stay in Washington and work on addressing the market excesses that caused this problem, they're going to go home and campaign. I can't help but think that the need for speed was more about the fast-approaching elections than it was about the financial meltdown.

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