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RE: trust - 11/1/2008 8:01:26 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

So I'm puzzled, again/still...  why does it require so much more thought and anxiety in the context of personal relationships?



Because typically we are more vulnerable in personal relationships. I don't give my office my heart. I do give it in a relationship, though.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to sravaka)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: trust - 11/1/2008 8:06:56 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		It is a necessity - if you have been posted overseas and you manage staff both there and back in the States, across an 11 hour time difference, you either develop new ways of handling people, or head straight for the loony bin.


(in reply to sravaka)
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RE: trust - 11/1/2008 8:11:38 PM   
sravaka


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quote:

Trust is not always in regards to positive (for lack of a better description) actions either. As a kid, I knew that I could trust my brother to do exactly what he wanted to do especially if our parents told him not to do it. With a boyfriend in college, I could trust that he was going to be late for any activity that we had planned. If he said he would be there in X amount of time, I would double it and not expect him until later.

These things are not exactly desirable, but I could trust that they would happen and I adjust my expectations of that person accordingly.


This is such a good point, Kyra, and something I hadn't thought of....  it's erratic or inconsistent behavior that's really troubling. 

(loving the Buffy quote, incidentally)  





_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: trust - 11/1/2008 8:25:22 PM   
sravaka


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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

So I'm puzzled, again/still... why does it require so much more thought and anxiety in the context of personal relationships?



Because typically we are more vulnerable in personal relationships. I don't give my office my heart. I do give it in a relationship, though.



Yes... I'm being a bit stupid/dense here... mostly because I'm wondering about the possibility of building on areas where trust is unproblematic.

(No conclusions right now)


_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: trust - 11/1/2008 8:28:01 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka
it's erratic or inconsistent behavior that's really troubling. 


Then here is a question for you... can you trust the motivation behind the behavior?

Behavior has little meaning to me without understanding the person's motivation behind it.  As an example, the job that my Lord has creates quite a bit of inconsistency and erraticness in his time and how it is spent.  One night he received a phone call at three in the morning and he got out of bed and was gone for almost 24 hours with very minimal contact.  This morning just before I put breakfast on the table, he received a call and had to leave and will be gone for at least another 12 - 18 hours. 

Both of those occurances meant that plans at home had to be changed.  His ability to spend time with the family and do the things around the house that he wants to do is very inconsistent and erratic right now.  However, I trust that he is motivated out of doing what is best for this family.  I don't need consistency in behavior, so much as consistency in motivation. 

That passage is one of my favorites from Buffy; it isn't just the words as much as the tone and cadence of the speach.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to sravaka)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 12:13:50 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Trust is a series of leaps of faith.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 5:09:56 AM   
MasterTslave


Posts: 200
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		I think trust is earned, but you must also want to trust that person.  I have wanted to trust people in the past that have f'd me over and looking back, should not have ever given them any trust...but on the flip side, I have not trusted people that have turned out to be very trustworthy. 

I guess what I'm saying is be careful who you trust and always look for the little shadow.  Wow, I really have issues with that, don't I?

I would say in my life I have very few people I truly trust.  Master, kids and close family...other than that I am always leery.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 5:51:19 AM   
antipode


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Joined: 4/19/2004
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quote:

His ability to spend time with the family and do the things around the house that he wants to do is very inconsistent and erratic right now.


Amusing to hear you say this... thinking that these are the demands his job / career places on him, there is nothing inconsistent and erratic about it - because you can count on it happening, you just don't know when. It is partially for that very reason I have steadfastedly refused to start a family, to the point of divorce (she's got four now,  two of his and two new production, so she's happy ).

I've had a call on Wednesday that made me be in SE Asia, 28 hours flight away, by Monday - for two years (with trips home, of course). I've had to abandon the relatives on Christmas morning in the middle of the unwrapping because of a network failure on Long Island - not to return until the next day. I watched the last episode of Seinfeld in the back of a limo (very thoughtful limousine company, unusual for Queens). I have returned from a meeting in Germany with a car waiting for me at JFK to whisk me away to yet another emergency, instead of coming home. I have sat on the Cross Island Parkway in the back of a limo for six hours after they closed the bridges due to a sudden storm - the driver spoke only Russian so he couldn't listen to the weather forecast on radio.

And I couldn't live without it. But it is a hard choice when you are in a relationship, I've noticed that you can tell your prospective partner how you live until you see blue in the face, she doesn't realize until it happens.

Bit off topic, probably..

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 7:08:24 AM   
antipode


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quote:

ask him for his credit card info and to be put on his bank account. That's proof.


Precisely. And that is exactly what I do. A new live-in sub (and in some cases a non live-in - so far, mine are in their twenties) whose life could do with a bit of extra green gets a credit card, and the car keys (including my sports car). I don't o shared bank accounts, never have done. I always have tools in place to keep an eye on what transpires, but in general, this is the absolute best way to build a relationship, and to find out how that new person in one's life handles responsibility.

I understand all the other arguments, but when I see friends who won't give their kids credit cards, I wonder where their heads are at. Learning by example does not exist, so you help your kid, or your young sub, to learn handling responsibility, and then you have the opportunity, too, to cut them off when it turns out they can't handle it. They learn from that, too, and you can't take it away if they don't have it.

That can be expensive, I'll admit that. But you gain some completely essential knowledge about the person, right up front - not accidentally a year down the line. You've designed it, you are in control. And you hand over trust, so it is defensible that you expect the same back. I mean, one does exchange body fluids with the person, which is another kind of trust.

And guess what - in my long "practice", this has only gone wrong on me once. So, I had the girl deported, and did some other nassties, I have really good lawyers. But what happened next - she went back home, and cleaned up her act. She then contacted me, explained where she was at, and asked me for mentoring. Just that, nothing else. She is now in a stable relationship, completely off drugs (pot), and became a good friend. One of my friends said, the other day: "You probably saved her life". I won't go that far, she wasn't that far gone, but I end up with a good feeling about the entire thing - OK, I can afford a slip-up, not everybody can. But I will tell you from experience that it is the taking risks that you learn from, and, more importantly, gain from, not the "I've been hurt before" stuff.

We've all been hurt, you get hurt whether you trust or not, and mostly, you get hurt because you make mistakes. Your choices are your own, the sooner one knows that, the happier one is.

Off the chair....

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 7:12:18 AM   
antipode


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quote:

I don't give my office my heart.


Fair enough. I do, my career is my life. By all means think me mercenary, but I have walked away from relationships for career reasons. On one occasion I did not, and that relationship did not last, and I ended up in New York anyway, but I could have been there 15 years earlier. I regret that to this day.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 9:27:33 AM   
kyraofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

His ability to spend time with the family and do the things around the house that he wants to do is very inconsistent and erratic right now.


Amusing to hear you say this... thinking that these are the demands his job / career places on him, there is nothing inconsistent and erratic about it - because you can count on it happening, you just don't know when.


Exactly, it is a matter of perspective.  When viewed from one perspective it appears erratic and inconsistent.  When viewed from another perspective it is completely predictable and I can count on it. 

Changing our perspective can sometimes make all the difference.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to antipode)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 9:43:58 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

I don't give my office my heart.


Fair enough. I do, my career is my life. By all means think me mercenary, but I have walked away from relationships for career reasons. On one occasion I did not, and that relationship did not last, and I ended up in New York anyway, but I could have been there 15 years earlier. I regret that to this day.



Understandable, actually. I know of several people who are greatly passionate about their jobs. I can actually feel envious of that at times. My quote (above) wasn't to say I don't put effort and passion into my work, though. I meant that my job doesn't get access to my heart. I am not emotionally vulnerable to it. Perhaps that clears my statement up.

I know all too well that when working for someone else, aspects of my life are vulnerable to the company. As in, after working at my last job for 5 years I was hit with their Reduction In Force while on medical leave last year. Had I "given them my heart" I could have taken that very personally and felt burned. I did not. Instead I just let them know that my legal counsel felt it was a very risky move for them, and I negotiated a reeeeally nice severance package as a result!

I do think it's awesome that you love what you do so much. That's not seen as much these days, and it's a great place to be.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to antipode)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 12:02:21 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Duh. You got RIFed while on medical? Yes, the lawyers would have had something to say.

I got lucky, I suppose, or perhaps they wanted to be nice to me - when I filed for early retirement, as the deal was good, and it would only reduce in the next few years, my boss let me volunteer for the RIF. That way she retained the position, even though she officially reduced her headcount, as required, and I went away with $$s in my eyes.

But I am sorry to hear what they did to you, that is in my book unconscionable. We have an unwritten rule, at least with the original pre-merger company (and it may be policy, I don't have the rulebook to hand) that people on medical leave return, and we then discuss with them where they want to go from there, and then we see what we can do. I can never understand why you would try to send a staffer away unhappy, it isn't good for PR. Mind you, if we didn't, the union, outside of right-to-work states, would be in court in a second, and we can't give craftspeople one thing, and management another.

Gosh, reminds me of the time my VP came to me and said "can you sit with me in the next meeting about the new subsidiary?" - this is Manhattan, BTW. So I said "Sure, John" and turned up in the conference room, where the seat next to his had been reserved for me. There was an entire support department sitting in front of me, with folks in other offices on a conference bridge.

To my complete horror, I had not been briefed, he began explaining that a particular network product had been sold to another company, with all of them. And I watched as they realized that their future plans, their wonderful pension plan, their excellent health plan, POOF! went up in a puff of smoke. And then he had me, unprepared but legally trained, give 'em the legalese about their separation options, which are boilerplate. I told him afterwards that if he did that to me again, I'd kick his ass - jokingly, of course, you don't tell no New Yawk Eyetalian VP nuttin'

Three months later the company that bought the network went belly-up, we retrieved it out of the bankruptcy, and took all the staff back. It's not always a happy ending, but this one was.

The tale is an illustration of trust - he knew I'd handle it even without knowing what gave in advance, and that is in the corporate world a high acolade. He did not ask my boss, who was in Manhattan that day, and available, to do it, because he would have tried to find out what was up, and blabbed before the meeting.

< Message edited by antipode -- 11/2/2008 12:12:10 PM >

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 12:32:36 PM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

Duh. You got RIFed while on medical? Yes, the lawyers would have had something to say.


If (in California, anyway), the company is conducting a corporate lay you off as part of a group, you can indeed be let go, even if on medical leave. However, it is still risky for the company to do that, and in my case, since the HR rep assured me before my leave that there would be a place for me when I returned, and because they hired the younger, lesser paid temp who was filling in for me while I was out, they put themselves in quite a questionable place.

It all worked out. I FedEx'd a letter individually to all the members of the executive staff explaining where I was coming from, and asking for a lengthy extension of paid COBRA as well as my salary, and they didn't bat an eye - I got everything I asked for, without argument. I was happy for the extra time off, and they didn't get sued. My ex-boss and I are still friends, and in fact have dinner plans in the near future (the decision to lay me off was not up to her, and in fact, was despite her efforts to keep me).

quote:


The tale is an illustration of trust - he knew I'd handle it even without knowing what gave in advance, and that is in the corporate world a high acolade. He did not ask my boss, who was in Manhattan that day, and available, to do it, because he would have tried to find out what was up, and blabbed before the meeting.


True, but there is trust of the heart and there is professional ethics. Having been the right hand to the CEO at a few jobs, they knew they could trust my sense of professionalism, which had nothing to do with and emotional level of trust. I assisted in the firing process of a CFO who happened to be someone I liked a lot. The Board had to trust that I would not go running to him with the information I knew. I was part of a Mergers & Acquisitions team in which I was trusted to not give into the inquiries of my direct supervisor (a VP who was unable to be privy to who we were acquiring), despite being friends with him outside of work.

But to me that's just professional ethics. Trust of the heart is an entirely different matter. I've seen people give their hearts to an organization, only to feel paralyzed with grief when a "corporate decision" was made and their job no longer existed. Remember when there was a wave of people coming back to shoot up their offices after being fired? I contend it's because they invested who they were as a person into their work and felt personally and emotionally jilted when they received their pink slip. I've seen it happen too often, so I don't invest that part of myself. A corporation is just that - a corporation. It is not a personal relationship for me.

Personal relationships are much different to me. I put everything into them (too much, sometimes?) so it takes a lot longer to develop the level of trust needed to do that. Having been painfully burned (more than once) in such relationships has made the trust process even longer for me, although it is still very possible. But I see a huge distinction between corporate and personal trust.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to antipode)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: trust - 11/2/2008 5:51:55 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

His ability to spend time with the family and do the things around the house that he wants to do is very inconsistent and erratic right now.


Amusing to hear you say this... thinking that these are the demands his job / career places on him, there is nothing inconsistent and erratic about it - because you can count on it happening, you just don't know when.


Exactly, it is a matter of perspective.  When viewed from one perspective it appears erratic and inconsistent.  When viewed from another perspective it is completely predictable and I can count on it. 

Changing our perspective can sometimes make all the difference.

Knight's Kyra


Antipode... you make an excellent point .... It reflects that trust can sometimes be improved by reconsidering the perspective one is looking at the situation. 

and just a note of unpredictability.... instead of being gone 12-18 hrs... in turned out to be 32 hours.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 11/2/2008 5:55:56 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: trust - 11/5/2008 7:55:41 AM   
GoddessTeaze


Posts: 1125
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
Trust,

Its something which has to grow, and yes actions speaks louder then words, it's something which has to be build up.
There for I don't understand D/s who will play on a first date. I always tell subs who I'm going to meet that I don't play on first dates.

Why?
Because I don't know the person, and is there something as immediatly trust to want to submit to someone..?

I never understood such.

I want to get to know the person, and build up the trust from both sides, before there is time to take anything a step further.

It's something which takes time, and one has to give time to develope.

I wish you enough.

GoddezzT`



_____________________________

~* The only disability in life is a bad attitude. ~Scott Hamilton*~

~*Beauty is not in the face; beauty is a light in the heart. ~Kahlil Gibran*~

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: trust - 11/5/2008 11:05:42 AM   
fragilepieces


Posts: 416
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline 		     I think trust is a choice---I choose if I want to trust someone or not.   If they at some point prove their dishonesty it is totally on them.   

(in reply to sravaka)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: trust - 11/5/2008 12:31:49 PM   
Arillis


Posts: 75
Joined: 10/28/2008
Status: offline 		Trust, like respect, are earned products, we may defer to someone else’s judgment or acknowledge merit or share opinions or even thinking and in a polite courteous manner express those decisions, but that has nothing at all to do with either respect or trust.

(in reply to sravaka)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: trust - 11/5/2008 12:33:20 PM   
JustDarkness


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Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

like respect, are earned products,


that is a whole other thread.
soem people give you respect as soon as they meet.

(in reply to Arillis)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: trust - 11/6/2008 6:38:22 AM   
Arillis


Posts: 75
Joined: 10/28/2008
Status: offline 		It was my intent to express a belief, not to impose it, simply to express it.
If in fact, my comment does warrant another thread, perhaps, someone will cause that to happen.

(in reply to JustDarkness)
Profile   Post #: 60
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