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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:27:18 PM   
Musicmystery


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dc---

Genesis answer

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:32:19 PM   
dcnovice


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Thanks, MM!

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:33:09 PM   
kdsub


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Only this...the science shield of enlightenment held forth by many here to deny the possibility of a God...is just as full of holes as the Bible.

Neither should be calling the others beliefs absolutely wrong….We just don’t know enough yet to be sure.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/4/2008 8:35:44 PM >

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:39:06 PM   
bipolarber


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blacksword,

Life itself began as a chemical process. Perhaps you recall the somewhat famous experiment where a biologist and a physicist combined basic elements into a beaker, along with the gasses of a primordial Earth, and applied heat and electrical strikes to it for several weeks. The result was a soupy mixture of amino acids, which are the building blocks of biochemistry. These amino acids coninued to interact, until random chance finally caused a molecule which was able to make copies of itself. From there (after several million years), and the right contitions, these molecules began to copy...and became viral-like lifeforms...(complex protiens) millions of years after that, they made a minor mutation: an outer cell wall. Those were the real start of life on Earth... the most primative examples of single cell organisims.
    From there, life kept becoming more complex, and specialized as it adapted to ever changing enviromental conditions.
    So, from basic elements, common to all parts of the universe, to organic chemistry, to the final result of life forming. All it takes is the right materials, the right contitions, and a mind bogglingly long span of time.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:41:29 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Does that include the mischaracterization? Or the free rewording of statements as if quoted? Just checking.

Mischaracterization, misstatement, mistake, misreading, misinterpretation.....take your pick. They all apply.

Evolution is a theory. Nothing more, and nothing less. It is not proven absolutely--and likely could not ever be proven absolutely.

Insistence that evolution is anything but theory is irrational, illogical, and decidedly unscientific.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:44:58 PM   
NumberSix


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Well, that appears to be settled then.

If I may, just a little confusion here, could you go about reconciling this with the 'apparent' resistance to antibiotics of some organisms?

Right quick, kinda like you done away with the last one.



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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:45:01 PM   
Musicmystery


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See the many previous posts about the scientific definition of theory.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:45:19 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Evolution is a theory. Nothing more, and nothing less. It is not proven absolutely--and likely could not ever be proven absolutely.



You're still confused about the meaning of the word theory. As long as this confusion of yours remains, you won't ever understand the subject of scientific method.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:47:05 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Only this...the science shield of enlightenment held forth by many here to deny the possibility of a God...is just as full of holes as the Bible.

Neither should be calling the others beliefs absolutely wrong….We just don’t know enough yet to be sure.

Butch


What you and yours consistently miss is that no one's calling you wrong.

On the other hand, to consistently call others wrong and try to make it reason without reasons---ya gotta expect some flack.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:51:04 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

Well, that appears to be settled then.

If I may, just a little confusion here, could you go about reconciling this with the 'apparent' resistance to antibiotics of some organisms?

Right quick, kinda like you done away with the last one.



The question was always settled. Evolution is a theory....and was never anything but. There is no confusion to be had, except in the minds of a few.

Similarly, there is nothing to reconcile regarding antibiotic resistance. The paradox you hoped for does not exist.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:51:36 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Only this...the science shield of enlightenment held forth by many here to deny the possibility of a God...is just as full of holes as the Bible.

Neither should be calling the others beliefs absolutely wrong….We just don’t know enough yet to be sure.

Butch

What you and yours consistently miss is that no one's calling you wrong.

On the other hand, to consistently call others wrong and try to make it reason without reasons---ya gotta expect some flack.


That is my point exactly...go back thru all my posts...and tell me where I have called anyone wrong...I only used sarcasm to counter the same.

As in my post that you quoted…We don’t know enough to call anyone wrong.

So then I guess we agree… it just took a few hours to get you to say it.

Butch

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:52:37 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Evolution is a theory. Nothing more, and nothing less. It is not proven absolutely--and likely could not ever be proven absolutely.



You're still confused about the meaning of the word theory. As long as this confusion of yours remains, you won't ever understand the subject of scientific method.

The confusion is not mine, kittin. Your presumption is erroneous.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:54:59 PM   
Musicmystery


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yeah, OK.

The world's only 6000 years old, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, obviously planted by the devil, and people who feel in their souls the world is flat are entitled to their opinions.

Fun talkin' with ya.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:55:13 PM   
NumberSix


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So is the one that the sun rises in the east.  Someday maybe it won't.  but it is a pretty sure bet, I was unaware that quibbling over the myopic differentiation in words was the issue that failed it for all cases.

I think I have seen you use the word war in some other discussions here, and since there ain't one, the surge is not working, by your own definition.



_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:57:01 PM   
Musicmystery


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No, seriously, she's right.

And we've already addressed this point to death. PLEASE read the previous posts.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:57:08 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix
So is the one that the sun rises in the east.  Someday maybe it won't.  but it is a pretty sure bet, I was unaware that quibbling over the myopic differentiation in words was the issue that failed it for all cases.

The sun does not rise at all. It never has.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 8:58:41 PM   
Racquelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Evolution is a theory. Nothing more, and nothing less. It is not proven absolutely--and likely could not ever be proven absolutely.



You're still confused about the meaning of the word theory. As long as this confusion of yours remains, you won't ever understand the subject of scientific method.

The confusion is not mine, kittin. Your presumption is erroneous.


Here, you don't have to read that whole long article posted earlier, I know it's a lot to read all at once.  Just this part...

"The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution. First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory" to convey the false impression that we evolutionists are covering up the rotten core of our edifice. Second, they misuse a popular philosophy of science to argue that they are behaving scientifically in attacking evolution. Yet the same philosophy demonstrates that their own belief is not science, and that "scientific creationism" is a meaningless and self-contradictory phrase, an example of what Orwell called "newspeak."

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science—that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations.""

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 9:00:50 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Evolution is a theory. Nothing more, and nothing less. It is not proven absolutely--and likely could not ever be proven absolutely.

Insistence that evolution is anything but theory is irrational, illogical, and decidedly unscientific.

No. Evolution is a fact. Populations change over time is evolution. This has been observed and is a fact.

The theory of evolution is the only scientific explanation of that observed fact.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 9:01:07 PM   
kittinSol


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It is you who is still being wilfully ignorant. A scientific theory is a substantiated, documented explanation for certain (empirical) observations. Scientific theories explain scientific laws.

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RE: Creationism in public schools - 10/4/2008 9:05:36 PM   
bluepanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Evolution is a theory. Nothing more, and nothing less. It is not proven absolutely--and likely could not ever be proven absolutely.

Insistence that evolution is anything but theory is irrational, illogical, and decidedly unscientific.


If you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, wouldn't it be better not to even bother posting?

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