RE: Creationism in public schools

RE: Creationism in public schools (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 3:44:38 PM)
Yeah. Excellent argument. Sorry to bring up facts. OK. Have it your way. God created the world in six days. Everyone should be taught to believe that. All scientific evidence is nothing more than faith in a questionable system, as it contradicts the will of God. Let's just cut public education altogether. Cheaper and faster.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 3:46:22 PM)
quote: The basic problem with this is as far as science is concerned there is no controversy. No claim made in support of creationism is correct. Science deals with the mechanics of the universe. It doesn't and will never answer questions that humans have always asked. Why are we here? What is our purpose? We won't ever answer those questions, but it's vital to humanity that we discuss it. It excercises the mind, and it pushes us to seek knowledge.

kittinSol -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 3:49:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Getting the facts wrong doesn't help the case! Please see my edit - I messed up the Roman numbers and meant XIXth, for nineteenth century. It happens to the best of us [:o] .

Raechard -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 3:52:07 PM)
This is why I don't use Roman numerals, I keep getting the date for the great fire of London all wrong.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 3:52:41 PM)
quote: Yeah. Excellent argument. Sorry to bring up facts. What facts? You didn't provide any. quote: God created the world in six days. Everyone should be taught to believe that. All scientific evidence is nothing more than faith in a questionable system, as it contradicts the will of God. Again, I never said I believed in Genesis or said that people should be taught to believe it. You haven't read the posts. I never made the claim that scientific evidence is nothing more than faith. Like I said, you are stubbornly disinterested in free discussion. You obviously believe that anyone who disagrees with you must be a right-wing fundamentalist Christian. quote: Let's just cut public education altogether. Cheaper and faster. Like I said, you haven't read the posts. You've completely failed to grasp the main argument. You saw the word creationism, and you instantly became closed-minded. Education is stifled when your train of thought is applied to it.

kittinSol -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 3:53:44 PM)
First time it happens to me, honest to god, guv' [&:] .

Musicmystery -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:04:06 PM)
quote: What facts? You didn't provide any. That's because this thread doesn't address a matter of fact, but a matter of opinion--as I've noted earlier.

kittinSol -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:13:52 PM)
Slaveboy, I don't think creationism should be taught in public schools. I think it's always good to have courses on comparative religions, or such like, but to teach a doctrine independently from others somehow legitimizes it, I'm sure you agree. And if creationism is going to be taught, how do you feel about sticking a few other eccentric religious theories in there too, for good measure?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:26:04 PM)
I don't think it should be taught seperately or "taught" at all. I simply think it should be open for discussion. It shouldn't be a topic that is avoided for fear of frivolous lawsuits. I would welcome a comparative religions course in public schools, and I have no problem with eccentric religions being discussed. We've went way overboard with seperation of church and state in this country. It doesn't cause any harm to discuss these ideas. It does cause harm when we try to silence people that see the world differently.

bipolarber -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:33:23 PM)
Actually, I'm okay with them teaching Creationisim in science classes. However, they'll need to open the "debate" to ALL religions, including my own, "pastafarianisim" We believe that God is a flying spaghetti monster, and that he wants us all to dress and talk like pirates, because it pleases him. My religion is just as "proavable" as that of christianity. Please give money to our church. We're trying to build a pirate ship that will act as our HQ for our church elders. Look us up on the web... perhaps you'd like to join us.

DomKen -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:35:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: The basic problem with this is as far as science is concerned there is no controversy. No claim made in support of creationism is correct. Science deals with the mechanics of the universe. It doesn't and will never answer questions that humans have always asked. Why are we here? What is our purpose? We won't ever answer those questions, but it's vital to humanity that we discuss it. It excercises the mind, and it pushes us to seek knowledge. You seem to be mixing terms willy nilly. Creationism is not a philosophical discussion of the origin of the universe. It is psuedo science based on Genesis. If you want to teach a religious opinion on the origin of the universe and stuff about the meaning of life I recommend sunday school not public school.

rulemylife -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:40:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: If you've set foot in a philosophy class you'll know that philosophy is not science. It is the pursuit of wisdom/knowledge through logical reasoning and many philosophers have discussed the shortcomings of just using logical reasoning to gain knowledge. What's your point? I never made the claim that it was. If you'll read my OP, I said that I found nothing wrong with allowing debate on the issue of creationsism. I never said that it should be a part of a science curriculum, and neither did Sarah Palin. It's obvious that many people didn't read what I wrote, they just saw the word "Creationism" and went off on a tirade. The fact that the term provokes such controversey is evidence to me that it should be debated in educational situations. You can't debunk an idea by hiding it under the rug. No, you're wrong. From the context of what Palin has said in various speeches and interviews she clearly believes it to be an alternative theory to evolution and something that should be presented in a science curriculum.

dcnovice -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:44:11 PM)
<fast reply> The National Science Education Standards include a category called "Science in personal and social perspectives," and creationism could be part of a fascinating lesson about how people react to scientific discoveries. The two historical examples that come to mind are Galileo's difficulties with the Vatican and the Scopes trial. Looking at these and other examples could help students grasp that science always unfolds in a larger cultural context. It could also be interesting to touch on the debates about stem-cell research.

Raechard -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 4:59:14 PM)
What do they call it now Critical Thinking? Where you learn the evils of non critical thought.[:D]

rulemylife -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 5:01:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Where are all the people advocating Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam, Primitivism...? That's much of the world---shouldn't "comparative religion" include those? And will they be presented as indistinguishable from science or philosophy? Or, for slaveboy, superstitition? Yes, they should include all those. In fact, especially all those, as so many us seem to have so little understanding and are so dismissive of other cultures and beliefs. I never said comparative Christian religion. I don't understand why you even asked the last question since I've expressed many times in this thread my belief that religion should not masquerade as science. It is a philosophy however. Whether you want to segregate it as religious philosophy it still falls under that banner.

Musicmystery -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 5:05:27 PM)
And again, where are the people advocating those religions? And do they think they should also be taught in science class? And good luck getting that through the school board. If we all believe comparative religion belongs in the schools (and I have no quarrel with that), then let's push for it. But I'll bet anyone willing to risk the dough that Creationists are the first to oppose it.

blacksword404 -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 5:06:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I've been poking around the blogs recently, and this seems to be a common subject in regards to Sarah Palin. Her words on it seem to be that Creationism should be allowed to be debated in public schools, but it doesn't need to be a part of the curriculum. What's wrong with that exactly? Now, I am not a believer in Creationism. I accept evolution as a perfectly reasonable explanation for life's origins and our origins. I believe that we share a common ancestor with the great apes. Simply put, I am a believer in evolution. But I don't see any harm in debating it. I've always thought educational institutions were the places for debate. I enjoy debating on a variety of subjects, and I don't understand the opposition towards allowing that debate. I can remember an 11th grade history teacher that firmly believed in JFK assassination conspiracy stories. He taught them to us for the last 9 weeks of the 2nd semester. I firmly disagreed with him, and I told him so. I enjoyed that experience. It was one of the best educational experiences I had during high school. I thought the teacher was a nutter, but he provoked debate and inspired free thinking. Debate provokes free thought, and free thinking is essential for education. A professor I had for "History of Civilization" discussed man's origins in my freshman year of college. He mentioned the debate between creationists and believers in evolution. He remarked on how important that debate was. The point he made struck home with me. We need skeptics in all fields of study, no matter how crazy they seem to us. Skeptics keep us on our toes, they compel us to think and to reason. Skeptics (no matter how crazy they sound) are important to learning. We wouldn't have made it this far without them. I thank them, and I welcome their contributions to humanity. So again....what is wrong with allowing this debate in public schools? There is nothing wrong in discussing Creationism in schools. What is wrong is presenting it as a valid alternative to evolution theory. One is based on scientific methods while the other is purely based on faith. Teaching evolution as science and Creationism as religious philosophy is fine. I have to say that both Creationism and Evolution are based on faith. Even darwin although he still believed in the theory admitted he had no real proof. After species after species changing into other species. There would have to be some fossils of at least one of these transitions. Show me a the bones of a creature in the middle of changing into another species and ill sign up.

DomKen -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 5:14:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 I have to say that both Creationism and Evolution are based on faith. Even darwin although he still believed in the theory admitted he had no real proof. After species after species changing into other species. There would have to be some fossils of at least one of these transitions. Show me a the bones of a creature in the middle of changing into another species and ill sign up. Look at your parents. They are a tranistional step between your grandparents and yourself. If you want fossils I can show you reptiles becoming mammals, fish becoming amphibians and dinosaurs becoming birds. Which would you prefer?

blacksword404 -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 5:32:54 PM)
Reptiles becoming mammals will do just fine. Show me that reptile that has mammalian abilities while retain all it's reptile abilities.

Musicmystery -> RE: Creationism in public schools (10/4/2008 5:34:46 PM)
See any science text

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