Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Watching the Debate ...


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Watching the Debate ... Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 7:16:31 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		They are talking about Obama's plan to invade Pakistan if necessary.

It occurred to me, while I was listening, how turned around things seem to get sometimes ...

McCain is willing to sit down and talk with our allies ... and is willing to attack our enemies.

Obama is willing to sit down and talk with our enemies ... and is willing to attack our allies.

Strange.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:02:20 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Firmhand, you need a reply so here I am.

Firmhand, just WHO are "our enemies" and WHO
are "our allies" these days?


< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/7/2008 8:13:00 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:12:42 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		So Pakistan is what passes for an ally now?Brings to mind that old saying ,you know the one that goes....with friends like these.....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:22:32 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Firmhand, you need a reply so here I am.

Firmhand, just WHO are "our enemies" and WHO
are "our allies" these days?



Thanks Miz.

I really was just posting in wonder, because that is exactly what Obama is saying.

Pakistan might not be another Great Britain, but they have certainly assisted us in the war against terrorists.

Do we have a problem with them, in that they do have a problem with the "bandit area" on their border? Yep.

But, Obama's plan may well turn a reluctant ally into a party to a live fire war - and they have nukes.

Yet ... he's willing to sit down with the president of Iran, and the dictator of N. Korea "without precondition"?

There is something basically skewed with this thinking, and I'm not simply trying to "make points" on Obama.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:24:31 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		What happens when Iran gets the "nukes", if they don't already
have them?
What about Russia?

Are we only waging war and kicking ass if they don't YET have the nukes?

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:28:30 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Please Firm,McCain has been banging that drum ad infinitum,and it isn't working....no President is sitting down with the leaders of Iran or North Korea without "preconditions".And both McCain and you know it,things are not done that way despite the sound bite you and McCain keep referring too.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:43:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Now be truthful FirmhandKY... If you as President knew conclusively the location of  Ben Laden in Pakistan. And the Pakistanis refused to act...or... you were afraid asking would assure a leak and failure... would you authorize a cross-border raid?

I know I would and I think McCain would too. I'm tired of our country deceiving others about our future actions.I think it is refreshing to say up front if you don't help us we will help ourselves. Maybe it will wake up the leaders of Pakistan.

Bush just does as he pleases with no warning at all... our does it anyway and lies to the world and the American people. Damn enough of that crap.

Butch

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:46:15 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Now be truthful FirmhandKY... If you as President knew conclusively the location of  Ben Laden in Pakistan. And the Pakistanis refused to act...or... you were afraid asking would assure a leak and failure... would you authorize a cross-border raid?

I know I would and I think McCain would too. I'm tired of our country deceiving others about our future actions.I think it is refreshing to say up front if you don't help us we will help ourselves. Maybe it will wake up the leaders of Pakistan.

Bush just does as he pleases with no warning at all... our does it anyway and lies to the world and the American people. Damn enough of that crap.

Butch


Sure I would.

But it would also certainly be a secret mission (unless successful), with a level of plausible deniability.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:51:24 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Now be truthful FirmhandKY... If you as President knew conclusively the location of  Ben Laden in Pakistan. And the Pakistanis refused to act...or... you were afraid asking would assure a leak and failure... would you authorize a cross-border raid?

I know I would and I think McCain would too. I'm tired of our country deceiving others about our future actions.I think it is refreshing to say up front if you don't help us we will help ourselves. Maybe it will wake up the leaders of Pakistan.

Bush just does as he pleases with no warning at all... our does it anyway and lies to the world and the American people. Damn enough of that crap.

Butch


Sure I would.

But it would also certainly be a secret mission (unless successful), with a level of plausible deniability.

Firm


See that is what I would like to see change... the HELL with deniability… I want some one that would show integrity... if a success or failure I want a President that will stand and admit his decisions.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:58:08 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It could hurt Obama if tomorrow we see thousands of marchers in Pakistan protesting his honest reply. Because I'm sure the hypocrite McCain will say "see he is naive about foreign policy". To bad though if it happens because honesty is what we need in our government not double talk.

Butch

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 8:58:40 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Plausible deniability?...Really Firm,you would want to deny ,and or keep secret, getting Bin Laden.If I had my druthers his body would go on tour and every American who wanted would get a chance to view his rotting corpse.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 9:19:59 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Plausible deniability?...Really Firm,you would want to deny ,and or keep secret, getting Bin Laden.If I had my druthers his body would go on tour and every American who wanted would get a chance to view his rotting corpse.


I recall about 7 years ago a little incident called "9/11".
Who was the mastermind behind 9/11?
Was his name Bin Laden?
Where is Bin Laden these days Firm?
Is he in Iraq?
Do we even care about Bin Laden any more?

I also recall the tactics that led up to our soon to be 8 years long war in Iraq.
mike? Do you recall President Bush sitting down to negotiate prior to bombing Iraq?
Why am I thinking another case of:  pot, kettle, black here?
Hummm, was our President willing to sit and wait and chat with our "friends" in
the UN, prior to going to Iraq?
Or do we have "friends" in the UN?

Can someone explain the negotiations that took place prior to our going over to Iraq?
I mean how long did President Bush sit down and talk prior to going, Firm?

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/7/2008 9:23:53 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 9:39:28 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Has Firm abandoned his own thread.I'm confused would Firm not talking to us make us his friends or enemies?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 10:25:16 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Plausible deniability?...Really Firm,you would want to deny ,and or keep secret, getting Bin Laden.If I had my druthers his body would go on tour and every American who wanted would get a chance to view his rotting corpse.


I recall about 7 years ago a little incident called "9/11".
Who was the mastermind behind 9/11?
Was his name Bin Laden?
Where is Bin Laden these days Firm?
Is he in Iraq?
Do we even care about Bin Laden any more?

I also recall the tactics that led up to our soon to be 8 years long war in Iraq.
mike? Do you recall President Bush sitting down to negotiate prior to bombing Iraq?
Why am I thinking another case of:  pot, kettle, black here?
Hummm, was our President willing to sit and wait and chat with our "friends" in
the UN, prior to going to Iraq?
Or do we have "friends" in the UN?

Can someone explain the negotiations that took place prior to our going over to Iraq?
I mean how long did President Bush sit down and talk prior to going, Firm?


Bush went to the UN, and engaged the UN several times before the Iraq war.

How soon we forget. Especially when it is convenient.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 10:27:30 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Has Firm abandoned his own thread.I'm confused would Firm not talking to us make us his friends or enemies?



Mike,

You are simply posturing. Kinda entertaining, but I've got better things to do right now.

No one who has posted has actually made any point to refute my original comment.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 10:55:02 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081008/ap_on_el_pr/debate_fact_check_5;_ylt=AmsLlLO91WwE0b.0Wk0yERNh24cA


"In an October 2007 interview with Military Times, however, McCain's position was indistinguishable from Obama's.
Asked if "you'd go get him" if U.S. forces had a fix on bin Laden in Pakistan, McCain said: "Sure. Sure. We have to, and I'm sure that after the initial flurry, that whoever our friends are, wherever he is, would be relieved because, as I mentioned to you before, he's still very effective in the world, very, very effective."


.......interesting link really.


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/7/2008 11:16:47 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		~FR~

Obama's actual comment was if Bin Ladin was in our sights and Pakistan either could not or would not go after him, then we would. He never used the word invade. Tom Brokaw used it .. maybe that's where the confusion lies. The only definition of invade that I could find which would fit the OP was 'to move into' since there is no conquest or pillage/plunder involved in going after Bin Laden as far as Pakistan is concerned. 

As far as I can tell, Obama doesn't want to move into Pakistan. He just wants to visit, get Bin Laden then get out. And why on Earth would we be allies with a country that harbors terrorists? That's a direct violation of the Patriot Act passed by both houses and signed into law by our President. And did not our esteemed president declare we would go after the evil doers no matter where on Earth they might hide? Remember 'if you're not with us, you're against us? I thought Bush did an excellent job in the early days after 9/11. Now it's time to finish what we started, get that son-of-a-bitch and be done with it.

Don't get me wrong .. I think diplomacy should be tried with Pakistan and I believe that Obama thinks that as well ... and maybe some new blood in the WH, whether that's McCain or Obama will enable some talks that will lead to a joint venture in capturing the bastard, but if not .. then we have every right (in fact I consider it a responsibility to ensure the safety of future generations) as a sovereign nation, to hunt down and capture or kill the terrorists who are responsible for the destruction and death of 9/11.

~Don't fuck with a menopausal sadist from Texas who owns guns~


< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 10/7/2008 11:17:39 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/8/2008 12:05:57 AM   
winterlight


Posts: 1319
Joined: 2/18/2006
Status: offline 		Promise anything to get elected and have really no clear plan on what to do for the future...

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/8/2008 12:16:19 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

They are talking about Obama's plan to invade Pakistan if necessary.

It occurred to me, while I was listening, how turned around things seem to get sometimes ...

McCain is willing to sit down and talk with our allies ... and is willing to attack our enemies.

Obama is willing to sit down and talk with our enemies ... and is willing to attack our allies.

Strange.

Firm


I think America's allies would be quite surprised to have an American Republic President sit down and discuss a problem with them, usually they are told what America wants and they can like it or lump it. Take the sites in Czech and Poland, no consideration for what their allies feel there, the US just bribes both governments, doesn't give a shit about what their populations think and doesn't give a fuck what Czech and Poland's neighbours think. If 'I want to be seen as a strong man McCain' with his usual rightwing machismo sits down and actually discusses international policy with the US's allies, I think a lot of leaders will need emergency oxygen. Its not for nothing that the Republicans have become so hated and reviled in Europe.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/8/2008 12:17:26 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Watching the Debate ... - 10/8/2008 12:32:08 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Please Firm,McCain has been banging that drum ad infinitum,and it isn't working....no President is sitting down with the leaders of Iran or North Korea without "preconditions".And both McCain and you know it,things are not done that way despite the sound bite you and McCain keep referring too.


I wish you were right.  Unfortunately, Mr. Obama's first answer to that exact question regarding his action as President in meeting with the leaders of Iran, Venezuela and Cuba was "I would!".  It's not me ranting, but his words! After Barack got beaten up for his naievete, he said that his response was being "mischaracterized".   Unfortuneately, when you deal with foreign despots they respond to the comments of the President and don't wait for the "re-write". For example,  the Soviet Unions first assesment of young Jack Kennedy was tht he was naieve, inexperienced and the typical "lets negotiate an honorable defeat" democrat that pushed them to put missiles 90 miles offshore.  They "mischaracterized" his words and his determination and we found ourselves on the brink of an atomic war.  Scary times not to be repeated.

Joe Biden was right when he said the "Presidency is not a place for on the job training".  It would be great if Obama would give any evidence that he has the skill set to actually deliver and execute on the "words" he so elequently delivers.  Sorry, I don't see it... Would love to see that evidence from some of his supporters here. Obviously, Obama is a quick study and has shown a lot of "flexibility" in his stand on issues.  However, the "real world" is not a debat, and the residency is not a job for on the job training!  

                 OBAMA on no preconditions:  OBhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Oj7Jn9rv4

                 BIDEN on the Presidency:        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAaLEJwkh9c&feature=related

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Watching the Debate ... Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094