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Need some advice - 10/8/2008 12:34:43 PM   
theRopist


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I just arrived home from a memorial service for my friend. This is the issue.... My friend committed suicide by hanging. I just found out the method at the memorial. Now this is a friend I had introduced bondage to in recent times and she had never considered it to be a form of pleasure due to conservative up-bringing. After finding this out I about got up and left because I feel if I hadn't introduced her to rope play, that this would not have happened. This was not an accident and I feel partly responsible. Am I?
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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 12:38:43 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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You are not responsible for other peoples' decisions about their lives, unless that person has -specifically- turned control over to you.

Just because you taught her rope-play doesn't mean you -caused- or even -facilitated- her decision to end her life. If it hadn't been by hanging, it would likely have been by whatever other method she could find.

Unless you had some specific reason to think that she would take what you were teaching her and use it to commit suicide, IMO, you can rest easy that you didn't "cause" her death. Feel free to drop me a line on the other side if you need it.

Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/8/2008 12:39:45 PM >


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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 12:38:53 PM   
SteelofUtah


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No just like I am Not responsible for my Kid Brother Doing Drugs today because I did them and introduced him to the people he still buys from

You did not tie the Knot nor did you Hide the Pain. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I am sorry for your loss but it is NOT your fault.

Take care and if you need or want to talk about it you can C-mail me

Steel

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 12:39:21 PM   
subtee


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I'm so sorry.

No, you weren't responsible. If she wanted to kill herself, she had the motivation from within. The method is secondary, If she had OD'ed on prescription pills, would it be her doctor's fault? If she let herself go by asphyxiation with her parent's car in the garage, would it be their fault?

The motivation, the desire, need, whatever she felt, is what killed her. The method by which it was achieved is secondary to that.

I wish you peace.

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Don't believe everything you think...

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 12:44:14 PM   
DesFIP


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Serious depression causes changes in the brain and those brain changes are always evident in suicides.

This wasn't an accident, it was deliberate to end the pain. She wasn't trying to tie herself up for fun and had this happen. She chose to end the pain rather than find help. Perhaps because of her conservative background she felt that asking for help was wrong or didn't even know that help is easily found. None of which is your fault.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 12:58:08 PM   
nameonhold


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Not in all, but in a HUGE and OVERWHELMING majority of cases of suicide, there is some mental illness operating. The mental illness is either undiagnosed, improperly diagnosed, improperly treated, or in an unusually acute phase.

Nobody "just breaks" or "just flips their wig." Very commonly, the mental illness has been in place for a very long time.

That is to say, very infrequently, does someone decide to commit suicide, by whatever means, on the spur of the moment.

Suicide is much like many other physical illnesses with which we are generally more familiar. Based upon years of medical research, we now know that it is very unusual for someone the "suddenly" drop dead of a heart attack. Years of research has show us that the "sudden death" is actually the culmination, or the end phase (if you will), of a cardiovascular disease process which finds it's origins in a disease process which is well established. Maybe it was 20 or 25 years of unregulated high blood pressure, or high cholesterol, or diabetes, etc., etc. The "sudden heart attack" is just the end game in a long disease process.

The same is true with respect to most suicides. The suicide itself is the culmination of a long and well established mental illness which was impropertly treated or undiagnosed.

Irrespective of how severe an individual's mental illness, the mentally ill person, and NOT the people around them, must accept responsibility for their behavior, including their suicide.

I've been bound by rope many, many times, and never had any suicidal thoughts. Pharmacists are not responsible for lawfully dispensing medication to people who abuse the medication and consequently die. Barbers who might provide you a nice clean shave are not responsible for the suicides of their customers who later slash their wrists with a similar razor. Driving instructors are not responsible for teaching people to drive who later intentionally drive their car into a tree. There is potential for the misuse of all sorts of things in life, rope being just one of them.

I sincerely appreciate the remorse you must be feeling about the dead of someone for whom you obviously had some level of affection. But you are not responsible for her suicide.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:02:35 PM   
Lockit


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First of all... please know that I am very sorry for your loss of a dear friend.  I do know what you are going through, first hand, as I have my own rope story and it has nothing to do with bdsm or anything but mental or emotional illness and the fact that a rope was used as a solution rather than for fun or general purposes.  You, the rope, nothing had anything to do with your friend seeing no hope and wanting to end the pain.

After something like this, you will question many things.  You will wonder if you missed something or if you could have done something to prevent it.  There are a lot of things, stages or feelings you will go through as a result of a suicide.  I know because my son decided that a rope held the answers to his life problems.  He died, but they were able to bring him back and now he will never understand what he did and how it harmed all those who loved him.  Every day of my life I will live with the memory of what he did in an emotional place no one could reach him in.  Every day, every one of us will go through what we must go through to get to the other side of our sorrow and loss.  But... you do get to the other side.  Please believe that!  I can now look at things much differently than I did two years ago when my world was rocked and his ended as he knew it.

Please find someone who has been there to talk to.  There are support groups that deal with survivors of suicide, even online.  They are a wealth of information that can help you through the process of it all.  At first I didn't want it, but looking into the eye's of another mother who went through what we did, was helpful in ways I just couldn't see at the time.

You are not at fault.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:08:04 PM   
persephonee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

You are not responsible for other peoples' decisions about their lives, unless that person has -specifically- turned control over to you.

Just because you taught her rope-play doesn't mean you -caused- or even -facilitated- her decision to end her life. If it hadn't been by hanging, it would likely have been by whatever other method she could find.

Unless you had some specific reason to think that she would take what you were teaching her and use it to commit suicide, IMO, you can rest easy that you didn't "cause" her death. Feel free to drop me a line on the other side if you need it.

Calla Firestorm


Dear Calla~
i obviously agree with what is posted here in this thread...but i had a question about one thing that you said...."unless that person has-specifically- turned control over to you."
i dont see how even then it could be the other person's fault. Can you elaborate on that? i mean, all the time i see folks eschewing personal accountability for decisions made and followed thru on because 'it wasnt their decision to make...' etc. i just want to be clear that even in a TPE M/s dynamic, a suicide needs to fall squarely on the shoulders of the person committing the act, yes?

With Respect,
perse

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Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:16:01 PM   
theRopist


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I thank you for all the responses and points of view. However at this moment I feel like tossing out all of my ropings and not partaking anymore. I just spoke with a dear friend and it was suggested that I take my things over there and leave them for a future date when my feelings and emotions calm from their current state.

(in reply to persephonee)
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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:21:07 PM   
Lockit


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I would do as your friend suggest.  How you feel now will be different than how you feel later on.  Right now, all you can see is how you are viewing things now and later... it will be far different.  If you think it will help you deal with things, get rid of it all... it isn't like you can't replace them when you feel better, but you will feel better. 

Many of those that loved my son blamed themselves in some way.  Many were lost in pain for a very long time and did self destructive things and are just now coming out of it.  They couldn't hear me or anyone else trying to help them find some balance, but they hear now and are moving towards healing, knowing they were not at fault.  Some are stuck in that place of blaming themselves.  We all process it differently and at different times.

I wish you and all involved the very best... and will hope you can see the best soon.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:26:18 PM   
MrHarsh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Serious depression causes changes in the brain and those brain changes are always evident in suicides.



This deserved to be repeated a million times... or at least 4.

Depressed people suffer from a medical condition and have altered brain chemistry. You are not responsible for another person's brain chemistry in any way. 

This person had an illness and died from that illness.  It is a tragedy that the illness went undetected and untreated, but no one is truly "at fault."

I am sorry for your loss.

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:44:45 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRopist

I thank you for all the responses and points of view. However at this moment I feel like tossing out all of my ropings and not partaking anymore. I just spoke with a dear friend and it was suggested that I take my things over there and leave them for a future date when my feelings and emotions calm from their current state.


Are you despondant? Are you in danger? If so, get with your people!

Let me please offer another perspective. Doing what you're feeling and what your friend has suggested may be a fine idea. However, please don't indulge your feelings of guilt. They happen and that's normal and as it should be, let them be, but maybe not encouraging them further by physically doing what your brain is suggesting to you just now is also a good idea. Neither you nor the ropes made this happen.

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Don't believe everything you think...

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:48:18 PM   
theRopist


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I'm fine, just sitting here reading the writings being posted. This is the first experience with this I've had, and have concluded that it is a very selfish thing when I sit and look at the trail of emotions left behind.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:48:58 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee
Dear Calla~
i obviously agree with what is posted here in this thread...but i had a question about one thing that you said...."unless that person has-specifically- turned control over to you."
i dont see how even then it could be the other person's fault. Can you elaborate on that? i mean, all the time i see folks eschewing personal accountability for decisions made and followed thru on because 'it wasnt their decision to make...' etc. i just want to be clear that even in a TPE M/s dynamic, a suicide needs to fall squarely on the shoulders of the person committing the act, yes?

With Respect,
perse

My point wasn't about whether he was at fault or not... my point was that he wasn't even in a relationship with this woman where he had accepted the responsibility to monitor how she used the things he taught her... I think that my point isn't that the D-type would be at -fault- in either case... but that, in the case where the person had turned hir life and control of that life over to the D-type, the D-type would be in a position to feel more responsibility for knowing that the possibility of something being a risk was there, since, in a TPE M/s dynamic, the D-type would likely be deeply aware of the s-type's emotional state, and would also be more likely control hir movements and keep tabs on where xhe was and what xhe was doing. A d-type in that situation might blame hirself and it would be harder to say "let go of that guilt" -- not that the d-type in that situation would necessarily -be- more guilty... but the control was passed to him, so he would likely feel a legitimate sense of having let the s-type down.

In this case, the OP sounded like this person bottomed to learn rope bondage from him, but that they weren't in a live-in arrangement, nor had she given him any real control over her life nor even shared her thought processes or let him know her mental state. To me, this absolves any possible responsibility on the d-type's part, since he had no way of knowing her frame of mind or controlling her actions surrounding what she did -- how she did it was irrelevant.

Hope this makes more sense.

Calla Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to persephonee)
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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:51:03 PM   
subtee


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Get with your people anyway, I'm thinking.

It is indeed an act in which the one in pain leaves it...and so much behind for the rest of us. Blame is an empty place to go now. Live now, miss her, reach out, love others.

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Don't believe everything you think...

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 1:53:18 PM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Get with your people anyway, I'm thinking.

It is indeed an act in which the one in pain leaves it...and so much behind for the rest of us. Blame is an empty place to go now. Live now, miss her, reach out, love others.
I agree with Subtee... now is not the time to be alone trying to figure out a situation that will never make sense (not completely anyway).  Call a friend and have them come over, go to a coffee shop, something.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 2:02:02 PM   
LadybugBlue


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First and foremost, I also  send my most sincere condolences. 

I also agree with the previous posts and say, it is NOT Your fault.  Having been in a suicidal mindset in the past, when a person is so depressed that they want to commit the (in reality) selfish act of suicide (though to the suicidal individual, it feels like the most compassionate, selfless act that can be done at the time), they will find any way possible, be it knife, pill, rope, gun, or otherwise.

If you need someone to talk to, feel free to CMail me...Suicide prevention and awareness is becoming a pet cause of mine, and I am walking in my 2nd annual AFSP suicide prevention walk next weekend....  You can always find out if there is a local AFSP branch in your town.  They have good resources on suicide and suicide prevention.  Maybe you and other friends might even feel it worthwhile to participate in a walk for suicide locally in your friend's memory.

Just because we live in this world of BDSM/kink/SM/DS, doesn't mean the real world and real problems don't affect us.  That second S in SSC is very important.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 2:10:52 PM   
Stroke


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Just as if you had taught someone how to drive and then they use the car to intentionally crash it, the choice to do so was theirs. As has already been said by several here, depression is the killer. You are not at fault. Take whatever time you need to come to terms with this, but do not blame yourself for her decision. I wish you well.  

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 2:31:50 PM   
tweedydaddy


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No way is any of that your fault. Suicide is a personal choice. They would have found another way to do it.

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RE: Need some advice - 10/8/2008 2:43:10 PM   
Lockit


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Rope is one of the leading ways of suicide as you can get it anywhere and it isn't costly.

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