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Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 1:33:09 PM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
Status: offline 		This question was put forth at the Oklahoma senatorial debate yesterday. I don't remember the exact wording of Senator Inhofe's answer but it was something along these lines:

"There are 18 provinces in Iraq and they need to be stabilized and in the hands of democratic Iraqi's. Currently 12 of the 18 are in that category."

So, two questions for the Collarme crowd. First, how do you feel about this definition and second, is it the job of the US to stabilize the entire country or is it the job of the Iraqi's to stabilize themselves? Considering the provinces were never really stable to begin with, does it appear as if our purpose is to leave it better than we found it and is this an acceptable scenario given the economic and blood cost of our occupation?



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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 1:34:22 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		By definition, democracy is organic.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 1:43:13 PM   
bipolarber


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Status: offline 		When you are trapped in a swampy pool in the Amazon, and the cows you were fijording across wwere suddenly stripped bare to the bone by hungry schools of pirahna, you define "victory" as getting out of that pool with your skin intact.

Bush said that we will stand down as the Iraqis stand up. They have.

Bush said than when the democratically elected government asks us to leave, we'll do so. They have.

So, why are we still there?

Because to pull out ahead of the election would hurt McCain's chances. Our guys are still over there, getting killed, so McCain can have his shot at keeping this failed administration in power, even if only by proxy.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 1:43:56 PM   
MadAxeman


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Status: offline 		Agreed. It's not a board game where you have to turn the red squares to blue. If the aim is to leave a functioning democracy behind, the people are going to have to want it.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 1:58:39 PM   
Raechard


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Status: offline 		From a historical point of view i.e. reviewing history in the future there will never be such a thing as victory in Iraq. It will always be seen as a loss no matter what good comes out of the net military involvement. It will never be remembered favourably in my opinion, therefore it's hard to define victory under those circumstances. Victory for average Iraqis and victory for the US are two different things; victory for the US is being able to not lose face and be able to say the end justified the means: they can't do this yet because the end they desire is far off. Victory for the Iraqi people would be realistic self governance and being able to go out without fear of death.
 
If the senator is going with the: the majority of Iraq is ok look how well we are doing stance, you kind of have to ask him how many of those provinces were stable in the first place. i.e. how many of those 18 provinces needed stabilisation when you consider the violence has been largely restricted to Bagdad and Basra throughout the occupation. Maybe it's me because I hear so much violence happening on a daily basis in Bagdad and Basra that I'm not hearing about how violent they are in the Kurdish North etc. 

< Message edited by Raechard -- 10/9/2008 1:59:37 PM >

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 2:05:36 PM   
Raechard


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Status: offline 		How many provinces in the Sunni triangle?

(font) 

< Message edited by Raechard -- 10/9/2008 2:12:05 PM >

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 2:06:09 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		We've already done what we set out to do. Remove Sadam and help them establish a government and army. They have both. Our work is done.


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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 2:50:15 PM   
subtee


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No victory in Iraq, says Petraeus



General Petraeus on the Iraq campaignThe outgoing commander of US troops in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, has said that he will never declare victory there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7610405.stm

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 3:02:02 PM   
tweedydaddy


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Status: offline 		Since all of Iraq was destabilised by the dismantling of the Iraqi army and police force, then all of it has to be restabilised. You can't just march in, in a glorified drive by shooting, knock off the ruling elite and saunter out once the oil starts flowing!
We are talking about a country twice the size of france reduced to medieaval barbarism and anarchy. Iraq was attacked on a pretext that was proved to false, we should not leave them wallowing in blood on another false pretext.
I don't, for one moment think that any more US or British forces should spend another minute in Iraq, the whole place is a powder keg and could get infintely worse, we should fund and equip a multi national pan arab force to clean the place up, which would leave the madder of the mullahs with nothing to moan about.
Victory in Iraq will be when the damage done is equalled by reconstruction, and when the last soldier out of there is given proper support to mentally and physically  recover from what we have put them through. It will also be when oil returns to the price it was before all this madness started and people can afford to run their vehicles. Wouldn't hurt, would it?

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 3:45:38 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		There can be no victory in Iraq as long as Iran is our enemy.  Any stable Iraq will be run by the Shia who look to Iran for religious guidance and who sheltered many of the current religious and political leaders of Iraq.

The key to victory is to befriend Iran and turn the entire strategic situation on its head.  Iran doesn't want Russia as her ally, they have invaded her too many times and Russia is much too close.  Iran wants back into the West and all we have to do is work out a deal.  We kiss Iran's ass, Iran drops the rhetoric against Israel, and voila, victory in Iraq.

In addition, our real enemy in the ME, those countries who are allied with Bush, you know, the ones who funded, staffed, and manned the 9/11 attacks would be hemmed in by a resurgent Shia religion and would be a massive check on Al Queda.

Till then, the Republican's will continue to downgrade the definition of "victory" until they win.  Remember, this started out when victory was defined as Iraq becoming a beacon of democracy and stability  to the rest of the ME!  Now it is "not decended into complete anarchy"...

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 3:58:39 PM   
Owner59


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Well depending on what day it is,there can 365 definitions,...or more.

Actually,our GI`s have already won their victory.They have performed miracles considering their orders and lack of equipment/body armor.

The occupation is..... well,the occupation has nothing to do with victory.

Right now our GIs are dying and being maimed to cover someone`s ass and to save face for neo-cons.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:01:45 PM   
NormalOutside


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Status: offline 		It was too late for "victory" when the US decided to terrorize an innocent country, murder 600,000 civilians and counting (most by gang-style shootings in their homes), use chemical and radioactive weapons, and occupy another nation to steal its natural resources.  WE ARE THE TERRORISTS!  :(

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:14:59 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		Define victory in Iraq? When people from the West can go on vacation there without bodyguards. This is probably now a generational thing.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:17:12 PM   
azropedntied


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Status: offline 		With as many lives have been lost or damaged on all sides there shall never be a victory ,cut the losses  and lets go home .

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:18:22 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NormalOutside

It was too late for "victory" when the US decided to terrorize an innocent country, murder 600,000 civilians and counting (most by gang-style shootings in their homes), use chemical and radioactive weapons, and occupy another nation to steal its natural resources.  WE ARE THE TERRORISTS!  :(


So, U.S. troops have murdered 600,000 innocent civilians in gang-style home invasions.  And they did that using chemical and radioactive weapons.

Wow!  Does anyone else know about this?

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:23:38 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

We've already done what we set out to do. Remove Sadam and help them establish a government and army. They have both. Our work is done.



You could argue they had a government and an army beforehand. All that has happened is the power has been passed from Sunni to Shia.

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:32:21 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Define victory in Iraq? When people from the West can go on vacation there without bodyguards. This is probably now a generational thing.


So you want to stay in Iraq, till we can vacation there w/out body guards?

That`ll take a hundred years.......

<kidding,of course>

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/9/2008 4:34:04 PM >

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:40:53 PM   
Simpleslave101


Posts: 39
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Status: offline 		Will there be a log ride?

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:44:20 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
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Status: offline 		I want to ride the ferris wheel!!!!!!

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RE: Define victory in Iraq - 10/9/2008 4:46:44 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		When we are sure the Iraqi government will never ever switch over to euros, no matter how good it would be for their country.

Hell, the way things are I'd like to switch to euros.

T

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