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Morals - 12/7/2005 4:27:33 AM

Twice

Posts: 179
Joined: 9/15/2005
From: Gainesville, Florida
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I want to make sure I'm not going crazy here, BUT....

I had a Dom for awhile, and now I don't. I currently have a sub that I'm crazy about (I'm sub with males, switch with females, if that matters) and I'd never push her to do something she thought was morally wrong.

Now, question is... Dom I HAD asked me to do thinks I considered morally wrong twice, and I did refuse and he didn't let up until I was in a ball crying because I thought it was so wrong. Now, it wasn't anything MAJOR, to be completely honest, but he KNEW my moral stance before I was his, it wasn't something I had particularly listed as a "hard limit" or anything, but my morals and what's important to ME he very clearly understood. And I had told him my morals were something that wouldn't budge. He said okay. Then that.

Obviously, it's nonwithstanding now, and not a problem between him and I, but, just as food for thought... does a Dom have the right to tell his sub to do something s/he thinks is plain, flat-out WRONG? Not "doesn't like" but "firmly believes makes her a worse person" and so on.

What about BIG things, like if she is strongly pro-life and he gets her pregnant and orders an abortion. Now, I see that she should have a say over something that major, but it IS his child, too, and he IS the dominant.... Personally, I see this particular situation as a total abuse of his power if he orders that and the relationship should end... but, for morals in general... I'm interested in conversation.

Thanks.

Post #: 1

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 5:15:45 AM

ragdoll

Posts: 231
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: New England
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For me, i think this really comes down to specifics.

Example. If you are a devoted Christian and your dominant partner asks you to do something that is completely against your religion (like say defile a Bible) then i'd tend to think this was indeed abusive of the dominant partner... because they weren't acting in any true "best interest" of the submissive partner.

However...

If you believed, somehow, that it were "morally wrong" to eat (sorry i've been up all night - that's the best example 2 i can come up with right now).... and your dominant partner kept pressuring you to eat.... well..... that would kind of be in your best interest...

Then there are all sorts of places in between.
Maybe you tell yourself that you believe it's against your morals to dress "provocatively" in any semi-public setting... Maybe in truth it isn't that it's actually against your morals but that you are "shy".. but you "use" the idea that it's "against your morals" because you don't want to admit you just feel "shy" about it...

then.. maybe... depending on your relationship dynamics... it might be reasonable for the dominant partner to push you on this.

It's really really about specifics though... Like if something were morally (and legally) wrong... Like if your dominant partner wanted you to "steal" something from a store, or something... standing up for your morals is not only reasonable.. but, well... since it's illegal to steal it is probably definitely in your best interest and stuff.

~As for whether a dominant partner has the "right" to ask the submissive partner to do something the submissive partner believes is really and truely "wrong"...? ....that seems like something that depends completely on the people in the relationship.

i'm sure there are submissive people perfectly willing to do things against their morals for their dominant partner. i'm sure others aren't willing to. ~

i do admit to wondering what your dominant's "reason" was for demanding you to do something that was against your morals. i mean.... was it a sexual thing that he thought would please him? Was it something to give him a weird ego trip..? i dunno... you don't have to answer that... i'm just wondering about it.

(in reply to Twice)

Post #: 2

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 5:55:03 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

does a Dom have the right to tell his sub to do something s/he thinks is plain, flat-out WRONG? Not "doesn't like" but "firmly believes makes her a worse person" and so on.

The dominant can tell his/her sub to do anything he wishes. The sub either obeys or tells the dominant no & walks away.

Is it proper for a dominant to tell his/her sub to do something that goes against their moral standing? Absolutely not. A sensible owner will not push a slave into things that are hard limits for him/her.

Protecting ourselves with proper negotiation as to limits & how we identify as a human being & where we stand on specific issues should take place beforehand.

Dominants & submissives both need to address these issues that are important to them.

Take for example what you said about pregnancy.... well I would think that safe sex, planned or accidental pregnancy is something two adults, regardless whether they are D/s or not, would discuss & set up guidelines before engaging in intercourse. That is being responsible.

Responsibility is typically that last thing many people consider before rushing into situations that may not have a warm fuzzy outcome.

If the dominant tells the sub to do this thing that goes against their morals & the sub obeys, the dominant has to take responsibility of the outcome.

***Would you really trust this person to be responsible with cleaning up a train wreck when they were the ones that caused it?????

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Post #: 3

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 5:55:47 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

abuse of power can come in many shapes and forms.
i can only speak for myself, but if it is something that makes my gut churn and my brain hurt w/ the thought of it....i'm history...it is my life and my body and if the master/dom/top whatever, is not seeing to my emotional/physical/mental well being and NOT being concerned about what their actions are doing to their slave/sub/bottom....then they are not worthy of the trust given them,imo

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Twice)

Post #: 4

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 6:10:50 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twice
just as food for thought... does a Dom have the right to tell his sub to do something s/he thinks is plain, flat-out WRONG?

Anyone has a "right" to ask anything of anyone at any time.

And they will have to deal with the consequences.

The question I THINK you are asking is- should a slave OBEY an order given that is morally wrong? That can only be answered by the slave. Generally, I'd say no.

And yes, I'd consider it WRONG for a dominant to ask a slave, in normal circumstances, to do something they had already decided was morally wrong for them.

Now, some slaves DO give over rights to many things that others would consider morally wrong. That's ok. As long as the people INVOLVED are all ok with it, then you're good.

(in reply to Twice)

Post #: 5

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 8:21:19 AM

OscarHargraves

Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
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Ouch! Tough question...........

Abuse comes in all sizes from a slap on the face to things like you speak of. Communication is the key here. If the people involved have worked out a good communication system between them then this should never happen. Things that are morally wrong to one person are not to others. A good Dom should realize when he's up against a morals issue and maybe handle that in a different way than he would a discipline issue or simple commands. These things can have a long-term effect on the mental health and happines of the person involved and on the relationship as a whole.

Having said that, I also feel that things like a possible pregnancy should be discussed in advance so that both parties know how the other feels.

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Post #: 6

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 9:41:33 AM

Webmaster60

Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

he KNEW my moral stance before I was his, it wasn't something I had particularly listed as a "hard limit" or anything, but my morals and what's important to ME he very clearly understood. And I had told him my morals were something that wouldn't budge. He said okay.

In all of that.. The above is the bottom line.. IF he KNEW, before hand, what your position was on whatever he asked you to do, and went back on what you both had agreed then....

See, as other have pointed out.. he CAN change the rules, and under normal circumstance you'd need to suck it up. But if he's changed the foundation upon which your relationship was built, then you're MORE than free to re-evaluate your position in that collar.

_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to Twice)

Post #: 7

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 10:32:14 AM

Kinkypupper

Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline

We all have moral values its just that some have higher ones then others.
Ones core values should not be destroyed, shaken perhaps but not destroyed
its those values who makes YOU who YOU are. Any potential partner weather they be Dom or sub should have equal moral values.
These values have nothing to do with ones "kink" level but are an escential part of who they are.
The "matching" of these moral values is an important part of any "coupling".

I also do not subscribe "values" to "hard limits" in all cases so the line here is indeed gray. I tend to think that many "hard limits" can and should be streatched or even changed over time thats an evolving process. But to tamper with ones core values is WAY frought with danger.

My slave has many "hard limits" that I do not have she is very aware that her "limits" will probably change over time and with more experiance. But a "hard limit" of (I do not play in public) is a LOT different then (I will not have any involvement with a married/ attached person who is hiding that fact from their partner).

The biggest issue tho is to have a "partner" who has the same base core values as you.

< Message edited by Kinkypupper -- 12/7/2005 10:49:08 AM >

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A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
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(in reply to Twice)

Post #: 8

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 11:31:15 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twice

Obviously, it's nonwithstanding now, and not a problem between him and I, but, just as food for thought... does a Dom have the right to tell his sub to do something s/he thinks is plain, flat-out WRONG? Not "doesn't like" but "firmly believes makes her a worse person" and so on.

Yes. But I believe that the dominant holds responsibility for the consequences of that as well.

quote:

What about BIG things, like if she is strongly pro-life and he gets her pregnant and orders an abortion. Now, I see that she should have a say over something that major, but it IS his child, too, and he IS the dominant.... Personally, I see this particular situation as a total abuse of his power if he orders that and the relationship should end... but, for morals in general... I'm interested in conversation.

I think like ragdoll said, this really does depend on the specifics.

I won't say flat out that I think its an abuse of his power in that example because quite frankly I have a brother who is adopted who was in the foster care system. And so I've seen how bad the foster and adoption system is for unwanted children (yet families go to China to adopt... don't get me started on that bullshit). So I am actually very much in favor of abortion if its a situation where the child is unwanted and the parents don't have the capacity to care for the child. So because of my beliefs I don't see that example as being abusive at all.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 12/7/2005 11:32:01 AM >

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RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 4:07:33 PM

SlavenationArmy

Posts: 26
Joined: 11/19/2005
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I'm torn on this one.

I personally feel that there shouldn't be much that should inhibit a Master's wish or command.

However, if there aren't any clearly defined rules, goals and limits and there is no means of continual communication, negotiation and understanding, you should have left the relationship sooner or find someway of repairing the communication gap.

Let me ask you this... Does the Dom feel you betrayed their trust in you by disobeying? If that is the case, then both of you had a lot of work to do in the area of communicating effectively.

*Disclaimer: these thoughts were written in a sleep deprived and caffeineless state. Someone bring me a cup of Joe quick!*

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Post #: 10

RE: Morals - 12/7/2005 7:44:15 PM

Sensualips

Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

We all have moral values its just that some have higher ones then others.

Maybe not "higher", maybe just different?

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Post #: 11

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 1:01:09 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

quote:

We all have moral values its just that some have higher ones then others.

Maybe not "higher", maybe just different?

yes - different!

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Sensualips)

Post #: 12

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 1:13:38 PM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

Let's turn it around.... does she feel like her Dom betrayed HER trust, not by asking, but by insisting that she do something she felt MORALLY wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlavenationArmy
Let me ask you this... Does the Dom feel you betrayed their trust in you by disobeying? If that is the case, then both of you had a lot of work to do in the area of communicating effectively.

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

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Post #: 13

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 4:25:37 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

I don't feel I can offer too much more advice on this one, other than to say it sounds like you two were living on different planets entirely.

(in reply to Twice)

Post #: 14

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 5:14:29 PM

Wolf1020

Posts: 447
Joined: 11/7/2005
From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline

to me ordering someone to break their core values is wrong, esspecialy if you knew it before hand. Pushing the limits a bit is one thing, but pushing so far is another. If they push that hard you need to ask yourself if you are compatible and if not move on. Everyone has limits of what they will or will not do. Pushing limits is fine, expecting them to be broken isn't and if the other party can't handle that then well one either needs to change their view of things of call it off and move on.

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RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 5:19:50 PM

Wolf1020

Posts: 447
Joined: 11/7/2005
From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline

to ammend that there are some things that might fall in to limits that a bit odd. Coke instead of pepsi or other little things like that. Just out of curiosity what were these limits that were pushed if you don't mind sharing them?

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"The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they'll sleep at night."~ Otto von Bismarck

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Post #: 16

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 6:26:24 PM

sultryvoice

Posts: 368
Joined: 3/31/2004
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As said by others, moral issues and limits are different. A Dom pushing limits is to be expected, taking your morals and dissing them is a whole other ball game.. He can have you do what he wants, but it is up to you to follow or not..In the case of morals, I find it horrible that he would ask you to do soemthing you adamamntly are against. If her were a good Dom, that would have never come up..My opinion only...

Respectfully,
sultry

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Post #: 17

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 6:30:51 PM

Slaveless1

Posts: 105
Joined: 11/22/2005
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If there had been a discussion prior as to limits, then a dom/me should respect those limits. Period ....end of discussion.

(in reply to Twice)

Post #: 18

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 9:47:50 PM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
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If not following your Doms order causes an end to the relationship then so be it. It sounds like you would be better off. I would think that in a contract, there would be a type of pentence or fasting to pay when you say "NO! I out right refuse to do that" to show the seriousness of your conviction and convince the Dom that the command was endeed something that shouldn't be asked of again.

This kind of situation reminds me of a history story. Once Hitler rose to power in Germany, he found a way to determine which sholders would be in the regular German army and the Gistopo. At the biginning of training, each trainie would be given a young German Shepered to train with. Each dog would become very loyal and obidient to there master as they would go through drills and such building a love of trust and respect. Upon graduation, the instructor of the new recruits would order each one to slit there dogs throat. The ones who followed through without hesitation joined the Gistopo while the ones who refussed or bare ill during the act/attempt were placed in the infintry after they watched there instructor shoot the pup. So the ones who refused still lost there dog but stayed true to there morals and paid the price of being in regular units.

Morals. If ordered, would you have an abortion? Would you steal? Would you kill your parents? Would you keep 3 character sheets in 3 different pockets of the same chacter with the only difference that each one would be maxed out in different areas of your Physical, Mental, and Social traits? Would you use OOC info to cheat? Would you purposly run over a squirl that was out in the road? Would you bust into Saint Judes Childrens Cancer Clinic and begin yelling "There's no Santa! Ha ha ha you dying retards" ?

Anyways, I would think that an understanding or aggreement was made before a sub fully submitted. After all, if that trust is broken, shouldn't that be a que to say "Good Bye" ?

< Message edited by FangsNfeet -- 12/8/2005 9:57:10 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Morals - 12/8/2005 9:56:12 PM

SlavenationArmy

Posts: 26
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn

Let's turn it around.... does she feel like her Dom betrayed HER trust, not by asking, but by insisting that she do something she felt MORALLY wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlavenationArmy
Let me ask you this... Does the Dom feel you betrayed their trust in you by disobeying? If that is the case, then both of you had a lot of work to do in the area of communicating effectively.

I think its fairly obvious that she feels betrayed, hurt and possibly confused.

The point I was trying to make was if the Dom reacted in a suprising way (ir. hurt, betrayal, etc..), then that would be evidence of a serious communication gap. The fault would lie at both their feet for this situation; however, more at the Dom's feet for being irresponsible and careless.

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