The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks

The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 8:48:59 AM)
Like most femdoms, I get frustrated with the inability for some submissives to follow simple instructions (email me before bed, write a few lines about what you felt about our recent encounter, send me your schedule, call me at xyz time, that kind of thing). I tend to have a short fuse and am admitedly cynical, but I don't give third and fourth chances when it comes to instructions that I find are fairly straight forward. It used to be that I thought this bothered/hurt/irritated/disappointed me simply because if I was becoming super fond of a guy, it's like any form of "rejection," it's not pleasant, and it's emotionally painful. Regardless, having someone "let you down," is always a bummer - and again, I'm talking about simple instructions, not crazy stuff. But I realized that there are a couple of men who are equally as inattentive, or slow to respond, or don't quite do things in the manner that they were instructed, and I am not NEARLY as upset - in fact, I am not upset at all. These are men that I am 'negotiating' with as more potential bottoms than subs, and despite the fact that in a few cases I am clearly more attracted/excited/interested than with one of the subs described above, I don't find myself really bothered all that much if they are not quick to respond - it's like, whatever, people are busy. Granted, my expectations and commands are not structured (they are, after all, not petitioning to be my 'submissive' or 'slave', we just are investigating the possibility of 'play') -- but, it would be logical that I would be just as upset, irritated, saddened or "let down," if a potential bottom-partner was not behaving in a manner that I would like. Simply put, I am not bothered at all, comparatively. So it's an easy, logical, solution: Don't make demands or have expectations of subs, just like I do with potential bottoms, right? Here's the rub. It's not that easy. If I am looking for a submissive, I want one that can follow instructions. And moreso, they WANT instructions. They are courting that. They crave control. It's what the initial courting is all about - they push for it just as much. If I give instructions though, and I expect them to be followed, I am going to be upset if they are not. I don't care how small the instruction is. If I say, and a sub agrees, that he's going to email me before he goes to bed, and he "forgets," and apologizes the next day - and it was just a "oops, duh, well...I guess I forgot..." thing (not "I had friend in crisis, my dog got sick, my sister had an emergency - it slipped my mind, I am sorry" - I get that)....he's just pissing me off. I can give the same "command" (but I will call it a "request" because that's more literal) to a potential bottom, kink friend, whatever, and if they forget or it slips their mind, who cares. I might mention it to them, but really - I don't get upset. I guess that's the point. I am not an anal person. One of my best girlfriends is always late. I don't bitch at her. I just know that she's that way. I am not the kind of friend that gets irritated or mad when a friend has to cancel attending something or flakes when they say, "Hey I'll call you later tonight!" - I am not that way at all, I just know people are busy. But when a man is attempting to engage in a submissive relationship with me and he's flaky like that, I simply cannot tolerate it - even a little. Why not, as a femdom, just shrug it off the way I do with my girlfriends, or my "bottom" boys, or whoever - hey, everyone is busy. People forget. It was a simple command and a trivial one, therefore, it's stuipid to overreact to it, just accept that maybe they will obey 30% of the time or 60%. Then everyone is happy, right? Wrong. I can't do that. This is the self analysis I am having. I realize that if a man is engaging a power dynamic with me and wants to follow commands, he has to follow them all. He can't only follow the ones that are convenient or fun. It has nothing to do with how attracted I am to him, how much I care about him, or how much he rocks my world - I can be more attracted to a "bottom," and if he forgets to do what I asked (casually, as a friend), I just don't mind it. But if I give an instruction to a submissive, no matter how small, and he blows it off or "forgets," it's irritating. I guess the reality is that I can't be obeyed partially, it must be all or nothing. (again, the caveat here is that I am not talking about difficult or over the top commands for a new relationship -- ie, of course no one should expect a new sub to do everything as told if the commands are unrealistic). Or, is the thinking backwards for me: really, in a new relationship, a submissive should be expected to only follow SOME of the instructions he receives...until things get "serious."? Femdoms, do you just brush off and ignore if a new submissive doesn't follow the smaller details and consistenly says he forgot? Are you anal when your friends (non kinky) are flaky, do they get more slack? Does the level of intensity/romance impact your level of expectation? Does it just depend on what the instructions are? Does it depend on how much you LIKE the guy? If you give a guy instructions and he flakes half the time, but you are only a LITTLE into him, do you not care and let it go, but if you REALLY like a guy do you give him less or more leeway? Akasha

ShiftedJewel -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 9:03:28 AM)
*Wow... Where to start?* Well, I don't normally issue a "command" that they contact me at such and such a time, but I do ask when I'll be hearing from them again and yeah... I get pissy if they do not contact me when they said they would. I think that's probably worse, because THEY set it up, THEY volunteered the when and how and then they don't follow through. It's weird because I was just thinking about this. My husband calls me daily on his lunch break. Not because he is checking in, but because he really likes talking to me. His promotion prevents us from being able to chat back and forth on IM all day. And you know what? That makes me feel special! It makes me feel wanted and appreciated. And I feel exactly the opposite when a sub/slave type blows me off. I don't go for the "Opps, I forgot" or "I got busy" bullshit excuses. Take two minutes out of your hectic life and call real quick and tell me that you're in the middle of something but wanted to say hi... whatever... just say something!!! Ok, you can probably tell by now that I have issues with that kind of behavior. All of my life I've believed that if it's important to you then you will remember it. I have a poor memory, but I do remember the important stuff. I have a sister who's birthday is in two days and for the last week I've counted down the days just to be sure I remember to call her on it. It's important to me so I go out of my way to remember it. *Beyond that, it's awesome to know you're being thought of. It's wonderful to know that what you say and what you want is important to someone else.* *Ok, enough of a rant. Thank you for posting this.* *Jewel*

LadyHibiscus -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 9:08:24 AM)
I am an attention whore. I don't need expensive gifts, you don't have to clean my house, and I have a lawn service. I DO require some kind of daily contact, be it an email, a voice mail, whatever. I've had friends tell me that I am setting the men up to fail, but if a guy doesn't have five minutes a day for me, we have a PROBLEM. And, everything Jewel said!

AAkasha -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 9:30:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I am an attention whore. I don't need expensive gifts, you don't have to clean my house, and I have a lawn service. I DO require some kind of daily contact, be it an email, a voice mail, whatever. I've had friends tell me that I am setting the men up to fail, but if a guy doesn't have five minutes a day for me, we have a PROBLEM. And, everything Jewel said! This is great feedback - both this and Jewel's post. Here's the thing: I am like you - in that way - with a submissive. Daily contact, yes. Or, at least sticking to the ideal communication schedule that is doable for both people. YES. But when I step back and look at that, and how it angers me when they don't follow it, it seems to me to be decidedly NEEDY which: 1) I am not 2) I find unattractive In vanilla land, courting, dating, in my single life and with "potential partners" I am pursuing, I am not needy. Needy, to me, in a woman, comes from a place of weakness. I am not going to pine if a guy I find hot does not call me in x number of days. I just don't get bothered by it, I don't care. But if a submissive does not do as told I get SO frustrated, it's unbelievable. So I tell myself: Look, that;'s just needy, isn't it? No, it's not. It's that if someone is going to submit to me, and we're looking into that territory - then, well, he better submit, period. So it's an interesting self-mind-fuck to sit here and think about Guy A, who is not submissive but MAY submit to me in the future as we've chatted about it, and I really don't get bothered at all if he doesn't call or write or stay in touch super prompt - it just is what it is. Whatever happens, happens. Then I have Guy B, a "submissive," who will grate on my nerves to no end if he doesn't stay in proper contact. How do femdoms reconcile not feeling "needy" for having these kinds of expectations? Mind you, when a sub doesn't do as he is told in these situations, it's not like I get despressed and sad and cry to him, "wahh, you never call or write when you say, you must not like me, blah blah blah," (that's what I think of when I think of "needy women") - I just end it and move on. I find nothing rewarding, or dominant, about having to bitch at a guy for not doing as told, then continuing to give him chances so he can do it again. And then, that becomes the circle of "cynical," and the wonder of -- am I being TOO stringent with these rules? Akasha

OttersSwim -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 9:35:16 AM)
I am wondering if you are placing proper emphasis on how important this is to you when you set the relationship up? And, if you reemphasize its meaning and importance to you when he fails? I mean, okay yes we are men and as such seem to have a problem keeping more than 3 things in our heads at the same time and have minds like lobster traps, etc...but...if a Lady is important to us, and she wants something, and let's us know that it is really important, we can usually put the brain cells together to get it done. And yea, that is a bit of a tongue in cheek description of men...but it is scary how often we make it true... I think a lot of the times, men are just clueless about what is actually at stake and what is going on in the woman's head and heart. We can miss the little things of affection and trust and contact that Ladies in general find very important. So I don't think you should just let it ride if it is important to you. Over time, that is going to build and your poor subbie boy is going to be like...."Huh?" when the top of your head blows off over it. Totally clueless about what has happened....

AAkasha -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 9:41:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim I am wondering if you are placing proper emphasis on how important this is to you when you set the relationship up? And, if you reemphasize its meaning and importance to you when he fails? I mean, okay yes we are men and as such seem to have a problem keeping more than 3 things in our heads at the same time and have minds like lobster traps, etc...but...if a Lady is important to us, and she wants something, and let's us know that it is really important, we can usually put the brain cells together to get it done. And yea, that is a bit of a tongue in cheek description of men...but it is scary how often we make it true... I think a lot of the times, men are just clueless about what is actually at stake and what is going on in the woman's head and heart. We can miss the little things of affection and trust and contact that Ladies in general find very important. So I don't think you should just let it ride if it is important to you. Over time, that is going to build and your poor subbie boy is going to be like...."Huh?" when the top of your head blows off over it. Totally clueless about what has happened.... How specific does it have to be? "Send me an email before you go to bed, and make sure you write about x." "Call me tomorrow at 5pm." "Wait a few hours and write to me about how that made you feel..." I'll admit, in the past I might have been vague, but when subs were disappointing me, but now I started to be more specific, ie, "By tomorrow morning..." etc. Now, do I need to be more specific than that, adding, "Note: If you do not follow these instructions I will probably stop talking to you." I mean, isn't that implied? Maybe these silly "trial contracts" serve a purpose. Just tell them once, "look, I give some small orders now and then but if you just blow them off, you will be history, so pay attention. Sign and initial here, here and here." Here's the rub : I can tell you that no sub forgets to follow the 'orders' that are fun or erotic. It's the relationship maintenance that falls off. The boring stuff. Akasha

MistressDolly -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 9:50:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim I am wondering if you are placing proper emphasis on how important this is to you when you set the relationship up? And, if you reemphasize its meaning and importance to you when he fails? I mean, okay yes we are men and as such seem to have a problem keeping more than 3 things in our heads at the same time and have minds like lobster traps, etc...but...if a Lady is important to us, and she wants something, and let's us know that it is really important, we can usually put the brain cells together to get it done. And yea, that is a bit of a tongue in cheek description of men...but it is scary how often we make it true... I think a lot of the times, men are just clueless about what is actually at stake and what is going on in the woman's head and heart. We can miss the little things of affection and trust and contact that Ladies in general find very important. So I don't think you should just let it ride if it is important to you. Over time, that is going to build and your poor subbie boy is going to be like...."Huh?" when the top of your head blows off over it. Totally clueless about what has happened.... :)

OttersSwim -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 9:51:09 AM)
Well and I wonder if that does not tell you a lot about the subbie boy in question? Sounds like you are looking for a relationship, not just a play partner. If he fails on the relationship but not on the play...is he who you really want? I just wondered if you had made sure they knew that this was -very- important to you, and had pointed it out when they miss the mark or fail completely on a task. And as for the boring stuff...it is the foundation of the relationship. If they are not willing to build a foundation with you, then you again have an answer. We are not all like that! [;)]

ShiftedJewel -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 10:00:36 AM)
No AAkasha.. I don't see it as needy. I don't even see it as overly demanding. I see it as something simple that is way to easy to comply with and they just blow it off. And that tends to piss me off. If they were here, in my home, and I ask them to do something as simple as turn down the heat before they go to bed and it didn't get done I would be just as pissy about it. I know that I may be using a seriously dramatic example here... but I'm diabetic and anyone that is going to be here for any length of time I make sure and tell them where I keep my testing kit just in case. It's a big deal. Ok, so let's say they can't seem to remember to close the lid on the trash can when they use it, they forget to shut off the lights in the livingroom before bed and all that little stuff... how am I supposed to trust that they're going to remember the big shit later on? If they were just play partners it wouldn't be a big deal. But if they want a relationship then they better act like it and remembering the little things is a big part of it. *Jewel*

LadyHibiscus -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 10:00:47 AM)
Shoot, I AM needy! I admit it freely! [:)] And Akasha, you have a husband at home. I think that puts a different spin on things, perhaps? Yes, I need attention, but it does have to be sincere attention. "Hi, Francine, just checking in as ordered" is not meaningful to me. "Hi, Francine, hope all goes well with your new client this afternoon" is. The point of the checking in is my little bit of proof that the person who is not living with me still thinks of me, at least for those few minutes. That he is, yes, following directions. Do I reciprocate this kind of attention? Hell yes, I do! I am not expecting to be kowtowed to, I certainly hold up my side of the relationship. That word is probably the key here. If I am interested in a playmate, I don't look for lots of attention, just friendly communication now and then.

Lashra -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 11:18:59 AM)
I used to get angry but now I do not. The reason is life gets hectic sometimes and my current sub has some things going on that may make it impossible to do some of the things that I may ask of him. He is under stress and I am under stress so I tend to not have a lot of protocols. I just do not have the time nor the energy for them. If its something important I want him to do I stress that and he does it everytime. One thing that does bug me is if he is busy and cannot complete a task he will not mention it when the time comes. Its as if he is hoping that I had forgot about it, but I of course do not. He explained it as being painful because he feels like a failure for not completing his task and he does not like to disappoint me. That is something we are currently working on. ~Lashra

ynsubm -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 11:45:19 AM)
I would suggest maybe, instead of having the ball in his court waiting for their phone calls etc. You keep the ball in your court by saying you will make the call instead. Having the submissive wait for you call. Example if you call the cable company and they tell you they will be there between 12pm and 2pm. You are pretty much stuck at home and waiting on the cable company when they feel like coming. Basically you’re at the mercy of the cable company so make sure the sub is at the mercy of you instead of vice versa. You’re just not hoping they are going to answer your question but you know they are going to answer the question you want. Also the same thing goes for asking them to call you at 5pm or before bed. If you were going to meet a friend at 2pm and they didn’t show we all call them up and ask”where the hell are you its 2”? Shifted Jewel I think you are seeing way too much into minor pet peeves. A woman’s brain has a bigger worry center than a mans. I’m sure they will worry about you dieing though. Example I sometimes cook and leave a dish on the table, but that doesn’t mean I left the stove on. This is my first post on collar me, so please forgive me if not in the right format. Also I have been told many times that I can be blunt and rude, but only mean to help and not insult.

TermsConditions -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 12:49:53 PM)
Having the dominant make the call puts the work back on the Domme; no good. And where is the warm fuzzy of knowing that somebody cared enough to follow through and call?

LadyHibiscus -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 1:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TermsConditions Having the dominant make the call puts the work back on the Domme; no good. And where is the warm fuzzy of knowing that somebody cared enough to follow through and call? Thanks, Terms, that's exactly what I was about to say. I will be doing plenty of calling on my own, it's not my job to follow directions!

leadership527 -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 1:22:38 PM)
OK, not being a part of the femdom world at all, I can only relate my experience as a male dom. I expect my wife to obey me... no issues there. But I also recognize that she is very much an "in the moment" sort of girl. That means things get forgotten. So I ask for a screwdriver and she gets lost on the way to the kitchen because a bird landed on the window sill. Big deal... it takes me 2 seconds to remind her. Like every personalty trait I know, this feature of hers has it's down sides, but also it's up sides. Her spontaneity and general joy in life is a constant delight to me. And you know what, when it is truly an important command, it's not hard for me to snap her attention to focus, much as otter suggested, so that she is clear that she needs to get a few additional neurons engaged on this one. Not that I'm suggesting that someone else shouldn't have their own standards, priorities, and desires. It was just a different spin on the issue.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 1:27:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 OK, not being a part of the femdom world at all, I can only relate my experience as a male dom. I expect my wife to obey me... no issues there. But I also recognize that she is very much an "in the moment" sort of girl. That means things get forgotten. So I ask for a screwdriver and she gets lost on the way to the kitchen because a bird landed on the window sill. Big deal... it takes me 2 seconds to remind her. Like every personalty trait I know, this feature of hers has it's down sides, but also it's up sides. Her spontaneity and general joy in life is a constant delight to me. And you know what, when it is truly an important command, it's not hard for me to snap her attention to focus, much as otter suggested, so that she is clear that she needs to get a few additional neurons engaged on this one. Not that I'm suggesting that someone else shouldn't have their own standards, priorities, and desires. It was just a different spin on the issue. All absolutely true--WHEN THE PERSON IS THERE WITH YOU. So far, we've been talking about them following directions when they have to motivate themselves to complete the task.

Twicehappy2x -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 1:31:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ynsubm Shifted Jewel I think you are seeing way too much into minor pet peeves. A woman’s brain has a bigger worry center than a mans. I’m sure they will worry about you dieing though. No, it is not about pet peeves. Me telling a new person when they arrive here that i cannot abide repetitive noise making, like constant jangling your keys, that is a pet peeve. Giving a submissive instructions on how the house is run and having them ignore claiming constantly they forgot is something else. That equals the submissive stating "what you tell me is so unimportant i just was not paying attention". Everybody forgets now and then, but when it becomes continual it is a sign of an issue. If you really are that forgetful then write it down!

ShiftedJewel -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 1:34:32 PM)
quote: Shifted Jewel I think you are seeing way too much into minor pet peeves. A woman’s brain has a bigger worry center than a mans. I’m sure they will worry about you dieing though. Example I sometimes cook and leave a dish on the table, but that doesn’t mean I left the stove on. This is my first post on collar me, so please forgive me if not in the right format. Also I have been told many times that I can be blunt and rude, but only mean to help and not insult. ynsubm, Yes, but they are MY minor pet peeves. And I guess I could offer a little clarity here as well. I did have someone that set a time when they would call or be online... and I would hear from them several days later with the excuse "It's been so hectic here!!" Yeah, I know, it's hard to keep up with all those play parties. And you may leave a dish on the table, but if you were told repeatedly NOT to leave that dish there and still continued to forget... see.. that is no longer a "minor" pet peeve... the is just plain irritating. I tried everything, I even handed him a note pad and pen so he could write down what he was worried about forgetting and even that didn't get done!! It really was a case of he didn't care enough about what I wanted or how I felt to even try to remember what was important to me... it's that simple. *Jewel* *Oh yeah... welcome to the boards!!! We look forward to many more posts!!!*

MmeGigs -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 2:49:52 PM)
quote: So it's an easy, logical, solution: Don't make demands or have expectations of subs, just like I do with potential bottoms, right? I don't think so. I expect very different things from subs than I do from bottoms, but more to the point, subs expect very different things from me than bottoms do. This is oversimplifying, but bottoms want action, whereas subs want emotional engagement (or power-exchange context) as well as action. I need more cooperation from a sub than I do from a bottom to make a successful and mutually satisfying scene. quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha 1) Femdoms, do you just brush off and ignore if a new submissive doesn't follow the smaller details and consistenly says he forgot? 2) Are you anal when your friends (non kinky) are flaky, do they get more slack? 3) Does the level of intensity/romance impact your level of expectation? 4) Does it just depend on what the instructions are? 5) Does it depend on how much you LIKE the guy? 6) If you give a guy instructions and he flakes half the time, but you are only a LITTLE into him, do you not care and let it go, but if you REALLY like a guy do you give him less or more leeway? Hope you don't mind the numbering. 1) No. If I issue a specific directive, I expect it to be carried out. If it's not, there'd better be a danged good reason. Forgetting isn't a good reason. He'd be out the door long before it got to "consistently forgetting". 2) I don't issue directives to friends, but if they've agreed to do something for me I expect that they'll do it. I cut them more slack, but there is a limit. I have demoted people who've continually let me down from "friend" to "acquaintance". 3) No. I'd ask less from a casual partner than from a serious one, but my expectations regarding their response would be the same. 4) No. If I issued the orders, I expect them to be carried out. 5) No. See 3 and 4 above. 6) If I was only a little into him, I'd probably cut him loose on the first flake. If I really liked him, he'd get a second chance. He'd have to be something ultra-spectacular to get a third chance. This all sounds pretty harsh, but it's not in practice. I don't often issue specific directives, and then only to people who have agreed that I have that authority. If the order is about a non-play thing, I'm okay if it's not done exactly the way I'd like it as long as the result is satisfactory and I don't have to nag. My Al folds my socks weird (he has strong feelings about sock-folding) but clean paired-up socks appear in my sock drawer with no thought or effort on my part so I don't care how he folds them. If it's a kinky fun thing, I expect absolute, to-the-letter obedience. I'm not all that into ordering a fellow around but I like doing about anything that will get a good reaction out of him, so if I'm issuing him orders it's likely because it trips his trigger. I've planned the scene with this in mind for his benefit, so his failure to follow those orders would be pretty aggravating. There would have to be a really good reason. "I couldn't tie the red ribbon around my dick because on the way here my hands were injured rescuing puppies and kittens from a burning building and the staff in the emergency room refused to help me with the bow," would be acceptable.

ShaktiSama -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/10/2008 4:46:56 PM)
I understand being frustrated when a submissive fails to obey or doesn't perform well, at first. And I would agree that I would lose interest very quickly in a man who failed me in some way and tried to blow it off or acted as if it did not matter; this is why I don't waste time on people who "flake out" on appointments or dates, regardless of what the dynamic was supposed to be. People who waste my time are damn near mortal enemies, to my way of thinking--I have absolutely no time in my life to waste. On the other hand, once I am in a relationship, I feel that patience is important. There are very few people who are perfect "naturals" at submission, especially if they are younger and do not have a lot of life experience in the daily tasks of household management--and even people who are very experienced at cooking, cleaning and organizing a household the way THEY might prefer, or the way a former dominant preferred, that doesn't mean they instantly know the way I like things done. It takes time to train a person to please and serve me--but it's worth it if the submissive truly feels that my happiness and pleasure are a great reward. I am not a super-strict or harsh mistress, but the desire to please and to serve has to be there. It sounds to me like you're talking about men who pay lip service to submission, or who want to submit conditionally (i.e., when they feel horny), but who reject even a small amount of control on YOUR terms. And obviously I would agree that fake and bad submissives suck. But that doesn't mean that there aren't good ones. [;)]

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