RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks

RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (Full Version)

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CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/12/2008 9:59:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Malesubs tend to reciprocate what you are able to offer. Some men, too, might have "taking you seriously issues" when you are married and committed to someone else. If you are not fully poly, what's a malesub incentive, other than sexual experimentation/actualization, to invest? Why invest in someone with whom you can't have a "real" relationship? (Other than gaining kinky experiences?) Perhaps you can explain how this logic applies in -our- case, then... Two dedicated dominant females, with (between us) a very broad spectrum of interests, and forthright about both what we're offering and what we expect... and yet we are -still- approached and discover that a fair portion of the ones who approach and ask to become servants (submit) can't follow a simple instruction like "Be at Andre's at 10AM on Saturday morning. If you can't be there, please call to let us know that something has come up." As to your other question -- If they read AAkasha's profile and see that she's married, and they aren't interested in being involved in that kind of dynamic, why waste her time by pretending that they are? Calla Firestorm

cloudboy -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/12/2008 12:04:23 PM)
All sorts of things happen in the weeding out don't-know-each-other phase. My focus was after a baseline of compatibility and attraction has been established. At that point its fair to look at what's on the table and how another person might react to that.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/12/2008 2:05:05 PM)
To me, many times this issue breaks down into a discussion about being honest about one's expectations, and not letting the frenzy of "Someone.... anyone..." keep a person from being honest about what xhe's looking for. Most of the time, when we've encountered these individuals who wanted to submit, and then later ran into problems, we knew up front that there were issues. We thought we had addressed those issues: Calla or SR: "It said on your profile that what -really- motivated you was being farted on... now I know we said in our profiles that we don't fart on, poop on, or sit on our servants' faces. It just isnt' our thing... how are you going to manage without being farted on, if that is something that is so important to you?" Prospective s-type": Oh, Ma'am, I just -say- that. It really isn't that important to me. It just gets rid of the fakers." CF or SR: "Ok, so you understand that you're never going to get that from us, and that's ok with you???" Ps-type: "Oh, yes, Ma'am... all I -really- want is to serve you, exactly the way you want." CF or SR: "Ok, so be at this address at 10AM on Saturday, and we will put you to work." Saturday comes, boy sometimes shows up... sometimes doesn't... sometimes is late... sometimes doesn't even bother to call, Cmail or email to say he's changed his mind. We wait around. Back to our prospective boy above... When he does show, and we assign him a project, 1/2 the time it is done perfectly. 1/2 the time it is done in a barely passable manner. After a couple of these projects: CF or SR: "Ok, so you seem to have a problem following instructions. We've given you three projects, and have had to correct you or send you back every single time. Ps-type: "Well, I thought about it, and I got angry that I'm doing all of this for you, but you're not even going to give me what I need, and I thought "why should I bother?" CF or SR: "So what was the point of our discussion last week, when you said that you understood that we were never going to fart on you, and that you were OK with that, and all you really wanted to do was serve us? Ps-type: "Well, I really thought that if I showed up, you'd change your mind and fart on me. If you had, I would have done a good job for you, I promise." The point is, it's bullshit. This guy really wants to be farted on. It's what makes him tick. He -knows- we won't do that, and he lies to both of us to see if he can wrangle what he wants. We accept him, knowing that he wants something that we can't offer -- which makes us complicit in the fraud. These days, I don't even accept these folks -- if what they want is something we can -never- provide, I think it's better just to say, straight up, "You're clear about what you want/need, and we are never going to give that to you -- I know you think you can compromise, but you won't be satisfied, and experience has shown that we won't either, so I think you need to keep looking." Calla Firestorm

SageFemmexx -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/12/2008 2:15:08 PM)
Wow CFS, I thought it was just me getting these Bs bullying scenarios with these guys. They start out friendly then get super pushy as they try to force their turnon onto an unwilling participant--diapers and high colonics are NOT and never will be my thing. They pout, whine and then go into full blown tantrums. I too refuse to even meet someone now when I know I will never provide for their fetish. Thanks for confirming my suspicions about these guys never changing. Sage

spinntja -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/13/2008 6:46:07 PM)
Jeeze, Aakasha, you check back in with them once they have failed? You are a kind and forgiving soul, indeed.

madamekitty -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/13/2008 7:32:40 PM)
I don't think I'm unusual, but I punish subs when they sadden me. Hurting my feelings, making lame excuses as to way they didn't carry out orders/directives, etc. I do it because I'm not happy with disobedience. I also do it because they crave structure and correction. That's the dynamic they signed up for. I totally "get" the farting analogy, and work hard to weed out that sort of bullshit. For example -- a certain someone was making excuses as to why he was not listening to his hypno tracks, when we had had tons of conversations over a period of time as to why this was important. He'd all but begged for hypno tracks, and to get going on the process. That agreement, being of one mind, and the bugging me to help him with this are key elements. I felt like he didn't carry through on his end when I finally outfitted him with the tracks and he blew them off. So, next time he visited, he caught up on the tracks. While stripped naked, with a blindfold on, my ipod and headphones installed on his head, on his knees, and bound to my iron mental institution bed. That took a couple hours. There was also physical correction with my most ouch-inducing paddle, and the rest of the afternoon on all 4's, naked (he loves outfits, which was why he didn't get to wear anything), and well, ignored - but close to me while I worked, and not allowed to talk, etc. I think that when subs act up they are crying out for attention and your guidance. So, give it to them. If they can't follow simple directions, why should they be entrusted with things more dear to you, like your heart, your investment of time, money, life energy, etc? Just my two cents ... MK Sigh.

EccentricallyMe -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/13/2008 8:29:27 PM)
What I think, in simple terms is: they either are forgetful & need help in the form of written instructions or they want to be punished & are manipulating me/you into hurting them. If it makes you feel yucky I would tell them that it's not working for you & give them one more chance. If they can't get their head right you get another slave.

LadyPact -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/14/2008 2:03:29 AM)
Good thread. My thanks to the OP for creating it and to everyone who has contributed to it. I'm very much like you, Aakasha. I don't flip out when someone who bottoms to Me doesn't follow through. They aren't submitting to Me. That's exactly why I call them bottoms and not subs. They aren't implying that they want to be in service to Me. Like you, I see these as two completely different levels of importance. It absolutely will be more important to Me if a sub doesn't follow through. If that person is attempting to establish themselves as wanting a D/s dynamic with Me, it is an important part to show Me that they pay attention, do what they were told, and can follow the instructions they were given. Two of the worst things a sub can ever tell Me when he's failed to do something are "I forgot" and "I didn't notice". With the type of dominant that I am, that isn't going to mesh well with Me, and there's obviously a compatibility issue. It's not My job to give reminders. I shouldn't have to preface everything with "that's a command" or tell someone that My instructions are important. If a person is a submissive, who is hoping to be My submissive, it really should be enough for Me to say that whatever it happens to be is something that I want. I was very much in agreement with this: quote: ORIGINAL: Ferns Submissives who deliver on these small things are showing a willingness to please, and that's a core part of their submission. I don't think it's at all needy on the Domme's part to require this. If he can't deliver on the small stuff, what are the chances that he is going to be delivering on the more challenging things? <snip> And does it piss me off if he doesn't do these small things over a period of time? Yes, because it's indicative of a fundamental problem. If it continues, then he is not a good fit for me. I would much rather learn that with the small things than later on with the bigger ones. Ferns -- For Me, this is how I see it. I will expect more as time goes on, especially if the submissive in question has had a chance to learn My particular style. If a sub knows that his missing things I want or forgetting things is an issue, and keeps repeating the same mistakes, it isn't going to work for Me.

MsStarlett -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/14/2008 5:39:49 AM)
I think I need to hug my Westie after reading these.

littlesarbonn -> RE: The devil is in the details of the dynamic: Submission sucks (10/14/2008 4:15:26 PM)
In my opinion, I think there are just a lot more bottoms than there are submissives. The difficult part is that so many dominant women do seem to be seeking out submissives, so those bottoms feel a need to convince the dominants that they are submissives rather than bottoms, and thus, when it comes to actually proving themselves, they perform a lot more like bottoms. The actual submissives out there are a lot more rare, and they are a lot harder to find, because once someone finds one, she tends to keep him, and he falls off the market pretty fast.

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