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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/7/2005 4:19:49 PM   
Krasnaya


Posts: 154
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

But each time he chooses to exercise his will upon me I make the choice to obey or not.


Well put Kyra! Exactly what I wanted to say...and yet said so much better.

_____________________________

My lesbianism is an act of Christian charity. All those women out there praying for a man, and I'm giving them my share.
~Rita Mae Brown

The tragedy of sexual intercourse is the perpetual virginity of the soul.
~William B. Yeats

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/7/2005 8:07:33 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I hear this come around a LOT- usually in the "difference between a sub/slave" talks but in other places as well.

There is this idea that some people consent ONCE, FOREVER to be under anothers authority and some other people consent EVERY TIME to be under anothers authority.

What exactly does that mean? How do they consent once vs every time? Is there a difference from the outside? Are people in relationships where they have to evaluate and get consent every day before authority can be in place consensually?


I would say that I don't consent every day but I also didn't consent once and thats it. Negotiation has never been a part of the relationship, its always been fairly simple which is that I'm his. We've hit some really rocky times where just for the purposes of closure and getting through it I needed to recommit to him in my mind, but quite frankly I could easier see me cutting off my arm than asking him for release even during those moments. So basically I'm just somewhere in between there, I do think the consent once is just niave and ignoring quite a bit, on the other hand I also find the consent continuously line of thinking just as niave.

C~

_____________________________

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 1:00:45 AM   
Phoenxx


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
... and in some cases even legally enslaved, in addition to the mental enslavement. legally, i am enslaved to my Master so that if i did succeed in running away all possible authorities would simply send me back to Him. financially i have nothing and no access to anything. ...


In Canada and I believe the US there is no legal slavery. Even if you have another adult as your guardian the courts can and will step in if there is any abuse (by their standards).
And if you are considered not mentally capable of caring for yourself, then you CANNOT give consent. That is one of the reasons you have a guardian placed over you.
Finically, even if you’re not married, in Canada after a period of time living together, you are common law and have rights. If for whatever reason you leave, alimony, child support and all that other fun stuff applies.

quote:


physically i cannot set foot outside the door without his knowledge, as whenever he leaves the locks are set from the outside, and to escape out a window would only result in a long fall and broken neck.


If an emergency happens, such as a fire or an injury, you need to be able to get help or get out. And not only to you, what if something happens to your Master. Not only is that a huge risk to you, but also if something happened and the police come to your door due to your Master being in a car accident, some serious questions will be asked. Forceful containment is still a crime in the eyes of the law. Again there is no way that I know of to give up your rights that the law forces on you. You may give them up in your relationship, and consent to it, but you choose this. It cannot be forced on you. If you wanted to send a message asking for someone to contact the police and have them “rescue you” I’m betting there are several people here who would make the call. I am not saying you need to be rescued, just that it is possible.

quote:


but more importantly, i am emotionally and psychologically enslaved to him to the point where i cannot fathom an existence where i am not owned by him


Nothing wrong with that, as long as it is what you want. But this happens in "vanilla" relationships also. Just dropped the BDSM references and I am sure many of us have heard statements like this many times. And more often with them in there LOL

There is a line in Warlord of Mars that goes something like: “I had no choice as I am not constructed to act other then I do. I am not a hero, for if I could act otherwise I might. “
For myself, I like the idea that fawn chooses to obey me. That it is something she does of her own free will. Even if at times it can lead to misunderstandings and even arguments and punishment LOL. If she didn’t have the ability to say no, then in my twisted mind, there is no exchange of power. It isn’t fear, or conditioning that enslaves her. It is love. And love is again in my opinion the strongest chain and harshest yet most gentle whip of all.
Tony

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 5:41:24 AM   
sunshine333


Posts: 203
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline 		in my opinion, it comes down to our belief system, priorities and intention.

examples

belief system:" i believe that giving my Owner consent once implies that i am owned and don't have the choice to leave or disobey."

we can convince ourselves of absolutely anything. in this case, if the belief is strong enough ... it will become a reality.

priorities: "my commitment to my Owner is more important to me than state laws and i do not have the right to dishonor my collar."

again ... it is part of that person's belief system but also a prioritizing of values.

intentions: "like a wedding vow, i hold my collar in the highest regard and intend to honor it forever ... leaving me no option for renegotiations."

while intentions don't pay the bills, they do govern how we live our lives.

of course, those three things can change in an instant which, to some, might imply the constant giving of consent (whether spoken or otherwise).

but if we believe to not have a choice .. then we don't.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 8:11:05 AM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		I can not fathom such an existence. Especially the part about the doors being locked from the outside. THAT would scare the Hell out of me. Your enslavement is your choice and it seems to have been made willingly enough, but your SAFETY is important too and being locked into a building that you can't escape from in an emergency is DANGEROUS! I, for one, would never want a slave that I had to lock in or one who I couldn't trust to do what she was told without the physical restraints you have mentioned. PLEASE be very careful.

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 8:24:11 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		For kyra of Mists:

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Silacote - made from natural mineral compounds, for use on masonry, concrete and wallboard; interior/exterior. (www.silacote.com)

Anna Sova - Natural paints from milk casein, titanium dioxide and food-grade ingredients. (www.annasova.com)

Lady Zephyr


(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 8:50:49 AM   
ErosPsyche


Posts: 46
Joined: 11/5/2005
Status: offline 		The discussion here has been framed temporally. Consenting now and then, once and forever, time after time - it is a discussion set in chronological, temporal terms.

I look at the question spatially, in the scope or sphere of where we consent. Psyche doesn't consent, or offer consent, at the local level. Moment to moment, or incident by incident, locally, her consent is not an issue, considered, offered or wanted. I don't give a fuck how pissed off she is if I say one more cruel thing, or make her crawl to me and lap at my feet when she is furious and resentful over something.

But in a meta-sense, in a way that encompasses the fullness and entirety of our relationship, she does consent, and I need her consent. I do give a fuck that she consents in the global, meta-sense - without her consent and love I would be blocked, stopped, cock-dropped and powerless.

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 9:33:12 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		Yes... this makes sense to me. I also get caught in the temporal... but you're right. For us, it is not so much the temporal consent, but the meta-physical consent... the reshaping of one's existance to encompass becoming fully part of the experience... and because one has created and is constantly re-creating the experience in which one exists, clearly, one consents to that experience... The conversion of waves of possibility into particles of existence by the focus of attention that makes now, then, and forever moot.

LZ


quote:

ORIGINAL: ErosPsyche

The discussion here has been framed temporally. Consenting now and then, once and forever, time after time - it is a discussion set in chronological, temporal terms.

I look at the question spatially, in the scope or sphere of where we consent. Psyche doesn't consent, or offer consent, at the local level. Moment to moment, or incident by incident, locally, her consent is not an issue, considered, offered or wanted. I don't give a fuck how pissed off she is if I say one more cruel thing, or make her crawl to me and lap at my feet when she is furious and resentful over something.

But in a meta-sense, in a way that encompasses the fullness and entirety of our relationship, she does consent, and I need her consent. I do give a fuck that she consents in the global, meta-sense - without her consent and love I would be blocked, stopped, cock-dropped and powerless.


_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 11:06:44 AM   
Krasnaya


Posts: 154
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

For myself, I like the idea that fawn chooses to obey me. That it is something she does of her own free will. Even if at times it can lead to misunderstandings and even arguments and punishment LOL. If she didn’t have the ability to say no, then in my twisted mind, there is no exchange of power. It isn’t fear, or conditioning that enslaves her. It is love. And love is again in my opinion the strongest chain and harshest yet most gentle whip of all.


The choice to obey "unconditionally" makes that obedience that much more special. I think thats what makes submission sexy (and yes this is just my opinion from my experience) that an equal would come to you and yet still submit by choice. Consent is what makes it a beautiful thing...and not illegal.

_____________________________

My lesbianism is an act of Christian charity. All those women out there praying for a man, and I'm giving them my share.
~Rita Mae Brown

The tragedy of sexual intercourse is the perpetual virginity of the soul.
~William B. Yeats

(in reply to Phoenxx)
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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 11:58:31 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasnaya

quote:

as whenever he leaves the locks are set from the outside, and to escape out a window would only result in a long fall and broken neck.


The first thing that came to mind when I read this was...house fire. Seriously just a thought.




And to follow up to that I'm thinking that her master (should this horrible thing ever happen) will be charged and likely found guilty of a very serious crime.

I just don't get ever wanting to do that to hold onto someone. Someone wants to be with me or they don't -- that shows me respect and honor; forcing someone by locking them in seems well, no offense intended, sad to me.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 12:58:34 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		first, the fact that i am physically prevented from leaving the house alone, does not mean that my Master does not trust me, or that he is "forcing" anything on me. He could walk out the house everyday and leave the doors wide open, and i would never set foot outside, because that is his command, and i live to serve him. He obviously knows this. so, it is not a matter of doing it because he has to, he does it simply because he wishes to. that and other things serve as tangible symbols of my slavery, because unlike some in this lifestyle, we do not believe that slavery is simply in the heart (and for some the heart never comes into play at all).

also, when i referred to legal enslavement, i did not mean that i am a legal slave...obviously, there is no such thing. my point was simply that there are indeed ways that a Master can legally tie a slave to him to the point where successfully escaping the situation would be an impossibility...things far more binding and restrictive than a legal marriage. for me, there is only one way "out" of this, and that is death. and for us, that is as it should be.

i know that for many the very idea of anyone living the M/s lifestyle in D/s is a joke...they assume that those of us who live this way must be sad sacks living in a dream world, getting off on some elaborate sexual fantasy. and unfortunately, many who proclaim to live this lifestyle are doing exactly that. however there are those of us...maybe not in huge numbers, but we are out there...who take this lifestyle very seriously, who do not engage in roleplay and who are not living in a fantasy. in this union, my consent IS irrelevant, as i hold no power. as to anyone being able to pick up the phone and call the police, or send a message for help via the internet, 1. this is not something everyone can do, physically, depending on what restrictions their Master has set in place, and 2. anyone who was actually enslaved (meaning, they are psychologically conditioned to the point where a life of slavery is all they can imagine, whether it's something they "like" or not)...would not be capable of doing such a thing. think of all the women in abusive vanilla relationships who are never able to leave, no matter how miserable they may be. the most powerful and unconditional slavery begins in the mind.

this is my reality...incomprehensible to some, distasteful to others, but so what? there are innumerable lifestyles i find to be incomprehensible and distasteful...different strokes for different folks, as they say. the fact is that many things about our ways and our life are very simple and almost vanilla, to the casual observer. but its the foundation of the relationship, and the 1-way power dynamic which makes it different, and which makes it beautiful. for us anyhow. :)


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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 2:30:58 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I hear this come around a LOT- usually in the "difference between a sub/slave" talks but in other places as well.

There is this idea that some people consent ONCE, FOREVER to be under anothers authority and some other people consent EVERY TIME to be under anothers authority.

What exactly does that mean? How do they consent once vs every time? Is there a difference from the outside? Are people in relationships where they have to evaluate and get consent every day before authority can be in place consensually?


I don’t see it as a Consent Once vs Consent Constantly issue. I would consider that both will occur within any given relationship.

Everyone travels their own path in determining if they desire to be in a relationship with another. Certain issues can be deal breaking or deal making considerations of whether a person will enter into a relationship or not. When these higher issues are established and understood a person will make what I call the “Choice of Consent” to be in the given relationship. This occurs once and only once, after such time as this Choice has been made; one then becomes engaged in validation and reaffirming of this initial consent. This validations and reaffirming is where one is constantly consenting to maintaining and investing into the relationship they have chosen to be in.

Depending on the type of relationship that one is in such decisions will have a significant or insignificant impact on the relationship. In my M/s relationships with alandra and kyra a choice to not consent would be an end the relationship. They are in a M/s relationship that dictates that they shall adhere and obey my will, for my slaves to willfully disobey my will is to remove consent – to remove consent is to remove ownership of the slave from the Master. Therefore, I have been graced with the Power of a Free-will within the relationship while my slaves have an “enslaved-Will”. The consequences of having a enslaved-will is that the person’s will only takes precedence when such choice is between a choice to be in the relationship or not.

To better convey my thoughts, consider the relationship as a vehicle. The Dominant being the driver of the vehicle and the submissive being passenger in the said vehicle. However, being a passenger doesn’t mean that a person is not active in determining where the relationships will go. In fact, vehicles can be equipment with two driving wheels and brakes etc… which might be a symbolism for the conventional style relationship. When a submissive makes the choice to enter the relationship or “vehicle”, they make it only once but they can and do have input into where the vehicle will go. There is many roads out there to travel on, some roads known by the people in the vehicle, some roads will be unknown by any and some will be only be known to by one person. Providing information to the driver of the road ahead can be a natural interaction between the occupants of the vehicle. However, the person at the wheel is the one empowered to determine the path to travel. The Dominant of the relationship is often empowered to make that choice. If one doesn’t wish to be traveling down a specific path or doesn’t feel comfortable in the manner the vehicle is being handled, they will and do choose to get out of the vehicle at the best opportunity.

In many relationships submissive places restrictions/limitations on to the Dominant, continuing my example, this could be considered as restrictions on particular roads to travel, speed of operation etc. Some people wish to establish a particular road map of where and how they wish we get to where they want to go. However, the road map doesn’t foresee every possibility. The driver of the vehicle will have to constantly handle the wheel as they drive down the road. The bumps and potholes on the road will always impact the vehicle forcing the driver to respond and keep the vehicle safely on the road. Lets not forget those incredible “sights of Interest” that we stop at along the way and then there is there is the dread pee-break. The Driver will interact with those in the vehicle and make the choices of stop or not stop etc. Not unlike the Dominant, they will interact with the submissives and depending on the Power structure that exists can and will make choices for entire relationship.

One thing to consider in any given relationship is ones attachment to the given relationship. It is very difficult and even harmful to get out of the moving vehicle; this is very much similar in relationships and is particularly true of relationships that have deep emotional investment. As a relationship evolves, restrictions/limitations are removed and/or are changed. This is akin to allowing the vehicle to go faster or down different roads which make it all the more difficult to get out of the relationship. This continued process of greater emotional investment is the consequence of continued consent on the part of those involved in the relationship. It is not surprising that a submissive person would reach a stage that they can’t foresee themselves out of the relationship. That to leave the relationship would actually increases their personal perception of the emotional harm they would feel. I would add that this is not only reserved to submissives, but Dominants as well.

What I am saying here, is both Dominants and submissives make the “choice to consent” and “continue to consent” to be in the relationship that starts a cycle of continually ever increasing emotional investment. When the one person stops to make this “continually choice” to consent to emotional invest into the relationship, the cycle is broken and the relationship will likely die. The inherent risk of relationships; It takes two to make a relationship but only one to end it.



< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/8/2005 2:39:34 PM >

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 3:40:36 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		prop,

I believe we've met before, on another list. As I think I told you then, reality is -exactly- what we make of it. No other person outside of your relationship can discount what you are experiencing.

I can understand the concern that some have here over what seem to be basic safety issues. These, to me, have nothing to do with SSC, consent, or even conditioned servitude such as you describe. They are more common-sense issues like, if there were a fire, would your owner prefer you to die rather than leave the house? No judgement -- just asking the question, from which decisions might be made by your owner... namely, does he wish to provide you with instructions that would enable you, in an emergency, to protect his property. If the question has already come up, then I would say that, for you, everything is settled. If it hasn't, were this one of my servants, I would appreciate hearing the question, respectfully presented. The reason for that is that I would prefer my servant(s) to survive the loss of our home in the event of a fire, or to survive an injury or illness because they were able to call 911 for help, even if I were not present. If your owner has already decided that this isn't important to him, that is all well and good. If he's already made arrangements to manage it, well and good. If not, or if he hasn't directed you as to how to handle yourself in such situations, perhaps he would appreciate an opportunity to make a decision on the matter -- a bonus for me being that then, my servants do not have to -guess-... They know that if there is a crisis situation, their first responsibility is to protect themselves, as my most valuable property. If they can save other things that are precious to me in the process, they are certainly to do so, as long as -they- are not at risk.

As far as other people's opinions... others may not choose to live the way that you do, but that does not give them the right to discount your experience or the magnitude of your choice. To be honest, this is the level of committment that we, also, expect from our servants. Though we handle the day-to-day issues differently, the magnitude of the commitment that we have made to this life, by the time we accept a servant as ours, is at the same magnitude.

Lady Zephyr

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 3:55:30 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		All the posts on this subject are intelligent and well thought out. I must say that daddysprop's posts are anything but ordinary. I read everyone with fascination.

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 4:00:33 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

As far as other people's opinions... others may not choose to live the way that you do, but that does not give them the right to discount your experience or the magnitude of your choice. To be honest, this is the level of committment that we, also, expect from our servants. Though we handle the day-to-day issues differently, the magnitude of the commitment that we have made to this life, by the time we accept a servant as ours, is at the same magnitude.

Lady Zephyr



yes Lady Zephyr, we have met elsewhere. as you can see, the inability of some to recognize or validate a reality different from their own still gets to me...still too sensitive i suppose.

as for your question about emergencies that may arise...those things were all explained to me by my Master long ago. my first priority in any situation is to obey him and his will, staying true to the ways in which he has trained me. by understanding those ways, i know what to do in any situation...so no need to ask a million questions about a million potential scenarios, as i'm sure many things are simply understood by those in your house. following these ways in some cases may mean sacrificing myself...in others it may mean saving myself. just depends.

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 4:06:10 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

my point was simply that there are indeed ways that a Master can legally tie a slave to him to the point where successfully escaping the situation would be an impossibility...things far more binding and restrictive than a legal marriage.

Such as?

~stef

_____________________________

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"Hypocrisy has consequences"

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 4:22:48 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

my point was simply that there are indeed ways that a Master can legally tie a slave to him to the point where successfully escaping the situation would be an impossibility...things far more binding and restrictive than a legal marriage.

Such as?

~stef



more ways than 1, you could look it up if you like. not trying to be smart-alecky, but if a person leaves something unexplained, then most likely that's a private issue.

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 4:45:22 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

my point was simply that there are indeed ways that a Master can legally tie a slave to him to the point where successfully escaping the situation would be an impossibility...things far more binding and restrictive than a legal marriage.

Such as?

~stef



more ways than 1, you could look it up if you like. not trying to be smart-alecky, but if a person leaves something unexplained, then most likely that's a private issue.



Or they don't have an answer. Since legal enslavement as defined in the conventional sense doesn't exist in US or Canada. One can only assume that your definition is different. Therefore, to understand your situation one would need to understand your definition of legal enslavement. In understanding your definition, one can better appreciate your truth and reality of the life you live.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 5:14:48 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Lady Zephyr,

Thank you for the links. I will be sure to save them for my Lord.

kyra

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Consent Once vs Consent Constantly? - 12/8/2005 5:41:17 PM   
sultryvoice


Posts: 368
Joined: 3/31/2004
Status: offline 		I can see what you live prop, but why put yourself in the path of danger? I realize it's a big if, but you never know. Are you giving your Owner consent to let you die or is it a nonconsent situation? I hope I was clear on that. Again, this comes back to the issue of consent once or every time. Are you giving consent everyday when you wake up and agree to live how your Owner want's you to for him? Everyone has their way of doing things. Being so dependent on someone is, in my eyes, doomed to fail..If something happens to him..there is not any consent..you will be lost as your will has been taken..You can live how you want, consent or not, but things happen in life. You do need to be prepared.

Respectfully,
sultry

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(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 40
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