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Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 9:18:10 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

From comments to another thread I am guessing that BDSM started out as individuals participating in a new kind of kink as opposed to finding a new way to relate., in other words it seems to have started out as base sexual interaction and in time seems to have grown to become more relationship oriented.

I am using posters to this forum as a baseline for forming that opinion, as the majority of postings that I read here are directed at understanding and developing and elevating the relationship part of BDSM, as opposed to the strictly play part, and clearly there is a general disdain for the meet and beat crowd.

I haven't really run in to that attitude in my face to face experiences but I don't spend much time with others in the lifestyle, most of my friends are vanilla, so I am assuming that opinions stated here are reflective of some kind of loosely based "community" and yeah I know that is a stretch, but I think it is reasonably fair.

So here are the questions:

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

Post #: 1

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 9:27:20 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

B=Bondage
D=Discipline
S=Sadism
M=Masochism

Actions do not make a relationship or a lifestyle.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 2

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 9:43:17 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

Actions do not make a relationship or a lifestyle.

Change the acronym to D/s if you prefer.

Either way I think that actions do make or break a relationship. How we act is central to who we are, or how else do you determine compatibility with another human being, and the worthiness of another human being, if not through their actions?

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 3

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 9:43:54 AM

ApathyRomance

Posts: 106
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline

If you go to a model airplane forum, it's probably going to be filled with people who really love every aspect of model airplanes, who have wives who like model airplanes, who play with them with their kids, etc. There might not be as many people who just build one once in a while for fun. Rough analogy, but the idea being that people who get the most passionate on the forums have probably incorporated into their lives. I guess my point is that the "baseline" might be a little skewed if you are seeking answers from the people you based your assumptions on. I might not have a point.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 4

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 9:44:35 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Sly,
Obviously, everything you read is a matter of personal opinion, but you have raised a couple of volatile questions so in this case it can't be said enough. In our opinion...

quote:

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

No - The concept hasn't evolved. Speaking from a 25 years of reference, there have always been BDSM relationships run the gamut from one night casual to lifetime, with everything in between. I'd offer that, even if you are sitting alone in front of a computer screen chatting and role-playing, it is still a relationship. 'Getting off' on reading stories requires a "relationship" with the author and/or the story characters. No more or less so than its ever been. More public or open - without a doubt, but no more evolved than it ever was.

quote:

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

Yes, based strictly on the individual and their goals. When in a 'relationship' the same answer applies. Based upon the relationship goals and desires it can be only an expression of raw sexuality or a complete power exchange, or some combination of both. This part doesn't take time - just desire. You can negotiate a complete power exchange inclusive of raw sex meeting someone at a club. Time only adds one factor - reliability that the other party to the transaction has the integrity to live up to expectation. Time adds trust, something that there is no shortcut.

quote:

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

Individual mileage may vary, but in theory - yes. We'd represent that the long term aspect builds the intensity because that 'trust' thing builds and allows you to 'go deeper' in your personal fulfillment. However, some peoples 'needs' require no intimacy only a facilitator to give, or receive, specific sensations or 'mind fucks'. No better or worse than those whose definition of 'total fulfillment' is 24/7 but obviously taking less time and therefor not having the requirement of a "long term BDSM relationship".

The "haul" can be short or long - a compatible, similarly wired, seeking complimentary goal, partner can be waiting for you the first or second time you set up a meeting or take 20 years.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 5

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 10:17:59 AM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

So here are the questions:

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

No I don't. I hang around mostly relationship oriented ones but also have many friends not in BDSM for a relationship. I don't think the two equate relationship. It equates to whatever the consenting parties want it to be.

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

For us it is both. I think power exchange takes time to developed and a sense of trust to accomplish. I don't think it happens overnight.

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

Yes I have played with sadists just to play. It also depends on the needs of each individual. If my need is to receive pain then I personally don't need to have a relationship or especially a long term one to fulfill that need. Everyone has a different reason for being in BDSM, not everyone wants a long term relationship. Some people just want to play on the weekends at home and thats fine because there are those willing to fulfill that need. BDSM does not equate relationship.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 6

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 10:49:36 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

I know very few people, kinky or not, who do not use sexual attraction as a baseline for accepting a date. In fact, I've never met anyone who went on a date without there being sexual attraction, but I will believe there are some.

So what's your point? That we are all of us shallow people who want to be sexually compatible with our partners? Yes, absolutely true of the entire human race.

Or do you only go out on a date after you have decided, without knowing the other person, that you want to marry them?

Scratching head over pointlessness of op.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)

Post #: 7

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 10:50:44 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

I guess my point is that the "baseline" might be a little skewed if you are seeking answers from the people you based your assumptions on. I might not have a point.

The second part made me laugh :)

Of course you have a point, I guess I am assuming that only a very small percentage of people who read the boards end up posting and that there are quite a variety of opinions out there that we are unfortunately never exposed to. So who knows where the majority opinion baseline really lies?

So how about it you silent majority....get off your collective asssets and give it a shot, post away, there are no right answers here, only personal expression and, hopefully, informed opinion.

Mr & mrs Merc and Sweetnurse thank you for your your thoughts, they are valued.

< Message edited by SlyStone -- 10/11/2008 11:10:36 AM >

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to ApathyRomance)

Post #: 8

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 10:56:35 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

o what's your point? That we are all of us shallow people who want to be sexually compatible with our partners? Yes, absolutely true of the entire human race.

You know, I cannot imagine making a posting here without you or someone else popping up to accuse me of judging you/them. I really don't know where this defensiveness comes from, and quite frankly, at this point, I don't care.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and thank you for your post.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 9

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 10:56:51 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

You're reifying BDSM. It didn't evolve; it's not an iguana. BDSM is what people make of it, and you'll find as much variety in the practice of BDSM as there are different people on this earth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 10

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 11:08:27 AM

peppermint

Posts: 5173
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

Are you comparing to 100 years ago? 200 years ago? or 2 years ago? My opinion is that personal relationships are constantly changing and evolving. I do not think that means that BDSM in general is becoming more relationship oriented.

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

Sorry...BDSM has nothing to do with my sexuality. I also don't believe that BDSM must develop over a long period of time. So...my answer is neither choice you are giving is right for me.

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

Sure...why not? If someone is completely and totally satisfied with short term BDSM relationships...then who am i to say that person CAN'T be fulfilled?

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 11

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 11:34:12 AM

Subductrssss

Posts: 97
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

For some yes, for some no, it depends, some are horn dogs and think that the BDSM D/s world is the easiest way to get laid. Some find it so powerful they want to develop relationships instead of one night stands and to be involved with the person who holds/gives so much of their power to another

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

To me it is a raw expression of my sexuality and brings me to the primal level of such.

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

For me no, for others yes, it depends on what each person needs and wants.

_____________________________

Subductrssss

The reality of the other person lies not in what he reveals to you but in what he cannot reveal to you. Therefore, if you would understand him, listen not to what he says but rather to what he does not say.
Kahlil Gibran

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 12

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 11:53:21 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

I have no knowledge of "BDSM", but off the cuff, "no". Really, BDSM is just people and people are still the same sort of thing nowadays that they were 50 or 500 or 5000 years ago.

quote:

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

FOR ME, it's almost totally sexless. It's all about the authority transfer and the amounts of authority I want require close, intimate contact over years of time.

quote:

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

Me? No. I couldn't fill ANY relationship needs I have (vanilla or otherwise) without a long-term committed relationship... that's why I never "fooled around". Other people? Absolutely.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 13

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 12:10:46 PM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

I think that the "core" of BDSM will be, and always has been, different for each relationship. Some are more into the D/s aspect, some more into the play aspect. Neither is right nor wrong. Some vanilla people date with the idea of finding a long term partner, some with the idea of just enjoying one or two meetings with a person - again, a personal preference.

I think that your questions are interesting but at the same time virtually unanswerable except by personal opinion. When I first started the relationship I am currently in I assumed it would be based on meeting once in a while for some sexually based play time. It turned into a relationship with an extremely strong bond that just keeps growing and growing. I now wear my Master's mark (a tattoo) because as far as I am concerned I am in this with him for the rest of my life. Whether physically together or not, I am always his. I came into the lifestyle because of the trust and communication. I have stayed because I never knew that I could get so much fulfillment for the appreciation I receive in turn for pleasing my One so fully. I had hoped from the beginning that the relationship would mean something, but I would never have guessed in my wildest dreams just how much it would mean.

You will find many profiles here that come out and state that they are looking for an LTR and are not looking for anything casual at all; then those that are the opposite. It is up to each person to choose - and that's another thing that I love about the lifestyle. I would never look down on someone who honestly states that they are just looking for a good time, just as I have the utmost respect for someone who knows that they are looking for a lasting partner. It's perfectly all right to have different core values. Diversity is a good thing.

_____________________________

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 14

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 2:14:54 PM

IvyMorgan

Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline

First up, I don't really "do" BDSM. I do Bondage, sometimes, SadoMasochism, lots of the time (when I'm being perverse), I really don't do Discipline at all, and Dominance and Submission are optional extras that, when they do come in to play do so very loudly and forcefully and potentially overwhelmingly... but they don't do that much at all. So, if it's okay, I'm going to say "kink" from here on out and we can worry about what actions that entails a little later.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

For me, yes. In the beginning there was absolutly no thought of a "relationship" that was kinky, contained kink, or any such thing. I was kinky, I did kinky things with people, but the idea of it being a "relationship" in the more prosaic/vanilla sense of the word just wasn't there.

It is there now. I want a "relationship", I want the D/s element in my life, I want the kink in the bedroom and the quiet, unstated, just present/pervasive control outside of it. I want to have a thought and then follow it with "I need to check if I can do that". I want a relationship.

What changed was I grew up, and grew into myself more.

I really can't speak for the wider scene, I'm still not at my first anniversary of a scene event. Golly it's been a busy year. (And, as a reference, I was working in a club before I ventured out on the scene.)

quote:

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

I have no idea what "BDSM" is. I mean, Bondage isn't about authority exchange, Discipline might be, Dominance and Submission is, SadoMasochism again, not really, it's just an extreme form of sensation play.

Which part of that is the "Core" of BDSM that you so want?

Holistically, I'd say "kink" is an expression of my sexuality, when asked I define my sexual orientation as "bi, ploy, switch" or "bi, poly, kinky" or if we're really getting into it, "bi, ploy, submissive, sado-masochist". There's an element of authority exchange hinted at there, but, not much, not really, and although who is holding the authority is significant for me in terms of a sexual relationship, it isn't in a generic interpoersonal one.

And, I do authority exchange with about ten minutes notice, with the right person, so, no real need to give it time, I've found either it will happen, right off the bat, as an instant feeling or spark, or there is no getting it to happen at all.

quote:

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

Short answer, yes.

I have to date, and can imagine that I will manage to do so for a while. That said, I *want* a relationship, I'm talking about the relationship, we're seeing what happens, as with anything me, its overly complicated, but worth the work.

I am, however, fulfilled with the way this "relationship" stands at the moment, I could do with less distance and more aftercare, but, those things won't change (aftercare cos of distance, no other reason, btw), and it is far, far, far from long term.

I need a good dose of impact play semi often, I need to feel useful and needed, I like to serve/make people happy. I can do all these things with casual play and a vanilla environment. *smiles*

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 15

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 3:20:56 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

I'm in it for the long haul. If a woman takes her clothes off around me, she knows that I want to be in her life long-term in some way. I don't "like" her because I sleep with (or play) with her; I get physical with her because I like her.

How can sexual urges be "base" if they are intimately connected to mental interest and emotional commitment? It bores the hell out of me to treat her like a piece of meat unless she's actually a friend and knows she is safe, so lets me take her places mentally she would never go with a stranger.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to IvyMorgan)

Post #: 16

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 3:47:21 PM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

I think that your questions are interesting but at the same time virtually unanswerable except by personal opinion.

Isn't that what it's always about? I realize that these are not easy questions and some people are not comfortable with personal introspection let alone public introspection and I respect that. But this board with be incredibly boring if people did not share their personal perspective, and to those that do, I am very grateful.

Having said that I guess it is only fair that I answer my own fucking questions :)

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

I think I already answered this one.

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power exchange that can only develop with time?

For me, at it's core it is an expression of my sexuality and the power dynamic is always going to be secondary. I think that even a BDSM dynamic where there is no sexual contact is still most likely based on sexual need and is an expression of an individuals sexuality especially if there is some kind of physical contact, but I clearly don't know that to be true
for anyone but myself.

,
Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

Absolutely, because for me BDSM is not about a relationship, it is about me fulfilling my "deviant" sexual needs and desires with another consenting adult with the same needs and desires. I mean, it IS a relationship in the sense that there is friendship and laughter and maybe even a kind of love and a sharing of personal space, but it is not a relationship in the sense of forming a bond of long or even short term commitment based on this dynamic. Could it be? Of course, just not for me, although I have learned to never say never, so who knows.

Because while I agree with the Merc's that a relationship can be online, on the phone, long term or short term or even imagined for that matter, I do think the one constant, the one defining
element of any relationship is commitment by at least one participant. I would say two participants are needed but I suppose you can have a relationship with a stuffed animal if you are committed to it.

ps

I almost trashed this whole post after reading Ivy's cause she came so close to how I feel and did it way better than me.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to chamberqueen)

Post #: 17

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/11/2008 4:16:45 PM

IvyMorgan

Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone]
ps

I almost trashed this whole post after reading Ivy's cause she came so close to how I feel and did it way better than me.

*smiles*

Why, thank you.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 18

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/12/2008 12:57:50 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

From an historical view, what we now refer to as BDSM began as S/M... people engaged in mutually pleasurable activities. The first sustained and lasting organizations, founded by gay men returning from service in WWII (the often misunderstood and misstated "Old Guard") developed lasting relationships based upon "ownership" along with a sense of community and achievement oriented social heirarchy (similar to what they experienced in the armed forces).

By in large, heterosexual participation was limited to finding individual interested partners by use of personals ads in the backs of magazines. And it wasn't until the late sixties and into the early seventies before power exchange relationships began to become popular, concurrent with the growing het participation in the public scene.

So to answer your question, it's impossible to make any universal statements that are true of all relationships throughout history. But the historical evidence clearly supports the assertion that although S/M probably dates to the dawn of mankind, power exchange relationships are relatively recent constructs.

quote:

Is BDSM at it's CORE raw expression of one's sexuality or is it a power/authority exchange that can only develop with time?

The "core" of BDSM is determined on an individual basis... it is what you make of it.

quote:

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

It is certainly possible for folks to have their BDSM needs (whatever they may be on an individual basis) met without the benefit of a long-term relationship.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 19

RE: Only In It For The Long Haul? - 10/12/2008 1:08:37 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

Do you believe that BDSM has evolved to become more relationship oriented?, and if so why.

Is it possible for you or anyone else to totally fulfill your/their BDSM needs without being in a long term BDSM relationship?

No, I do not think BDSM is more relationship oriented than it was in 2002 when CollarMe first started.

Yes, it is possible to be fulfilled w/o an LTR and there are scores of happy hedonistic Tops, bottoms, Doms and subs living vivacious and satisfied lives.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 20

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