RE: Independence for Wales - NOW!

RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (Full Version)

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tweedydaddy -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 4:53:05 PM)
A new prison in Wales? With all those defunct coal mines? Fence the mines off and give the convicts shovels. As someone living in a neighbourhood now blighted to hell by some shiny trousered idiot deciding to propose putting a Titan prison within walking distance of my home, putting it in the site that was supposed to become a killer employment and business zone, only to find that it is now going to just a zone for killers, I am remarkably unsympathetic. I will qualify that by saying that no one who has not been convicted of an offence involving violence should ever see the inside of a prison. Bail should be there for everybody who has not been previously convicted of violent offences. Personally I think the abolition of prescription charges in Scotland and Wales are a sign that their democracies are young enough to deal with human realities like illness being a priority and that the poor should not have to buy medicines out of their own pocket in a civilised society. Let's be honest, if Brown and his Scottish Mafia running westminster had to retire in England they would make damn sure that they and their families did not have to pay for medicines.

hapistan -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 5:42:01 PM)
prescription charges are callous, but not that callous, only people in work have to pay them.... even then students and people with serious illnesses normally don't pay either.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 7:59:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver What the hell, you can live in your alternative universe where Thatcher put the great back into Britain, I've lived there, along with France, Belgium, Holland and germany and all the latter have better infrastructures and life styles than good old fashioned capitalist Britain. Thatcher got the ball rolling, and Blair went further and made things even better. I noticed the change. British roads were rubbish, it was a case of lurching from from rut to the next. And the cars on the roads were held together with twine. Over time the roads became much better and towards the end of Blair's run they were actually quite good, nearly as good as ours and maybe even on a par with the USA. Use my index of road quality to reflect the relative merits of the economies anytime you like.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 8:05:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne Didn't the Welsh punish us all enough? They gave us Tom Jones K They gave the World; Gareth Edwards, Barry John, Phil Bennett and J.J. Williams.

meatcleaver -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 10:22:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver What the hell, you can live in your alternative universe where Thatcher put the great back into Britain, I've lived there, along with France, Belgium, Holland and germany and all the latter have better infrastructures and life styles than good old fashioned capitalist Britain. Thatcher got the ball rolling, and Blair went further and made things even better. I noticed the change. British roads were rubbish, it was a case of lurching from from rut to the next. And the cars on the roads were held together with twine. Over time the roads became much better and towards the end of Blair's run they were actually quite good, nearly as good as ours and maybe even on a par with the USA. Use my index of road quality to reflect the relative merits of the economies anytime you like. I'm amazed you know all this because according to your own admission you haven't spent any or very little time in Britain. Actually, the last time I was there, the roads were fine and always have been, the problem is there are so many cars, you end up parking on the roads rather than moving whenever you want to go anywhere because one small incident and it blocks up the whole system.

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 12:16:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I live about 45 minutes from the current Welsh border < snip > From what I've seen, the place is far from fucked as you so eloquently put it. Interesting statement, because depending on which side of the border you're on it's like night vs day. Step into Wales - darkness. Lights out. That's how fucked over it is. I'm not talking about the towns, I'm talking about everything, look around. Back into England - ping - lights on again. I noticed it immediately the first time, but now I find it depressing that the English would be so blind to this inequality. So what youre saying is, that you have far more experience, and far more frequent and recent, of the reality of Wales, living as you do on the other side of the world, than I might, living 30 miles from the border? That you have visited since the last time I was there (mid August), and since then it has deteriorated to a third world level? E

colouredin -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 1:07:41 AM)
I lived in wales for three years, guess what it aint actually that differant from England, shocking that. In fact for example the cardiff transport system is better than mos cities I have been to. But then i am pretty sure that someone who has visited it twice has a better view than someone who lived there.

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 1:23:54 AM)
Cardiff is one heck of a great place from what everyone tells me - its in the 5% of Wales I havent been though! But what would they (or you for that matter) know? I think its more likely to resemble Mogadishu from what my mate Paul says E

colouredin -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 1:32:00 AM)
Thats true I dont think I can be as well informed as him what with his raher wonderful statements about British politics so far which everyone agreed with whole heartedly. But Yeah i loved living in Cardiff and I Love Wales generally, Im half Welsh and that side of my family clearly dont think its all that bad or they wouldnt stay there.

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 2:02:02 AM)
Yep - what he doesnt seem to get is that if Wales is that bad, then how come so many English go and settle there? Why would it be that we English would leave the land of plenty to live in the alleged squalor of Wales? What he also doesnt understand is that if the English didnt take so many holidays in Wales - because its a nice place (when its not raining!), the economy of much of the country would be in dire straits. Yes, the locals grumble about the traffic jams and whatever grockles might be in Welsh - we do the same where I live, overrun with tourists half the year, but I bet now that like we recognise here, without them we'd be much worse off - and in any case we keep the best for ourselves! E

Aneirin -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 3:54:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver What the hell, you can live in your alternative universe where Thatcher put the great back into Britain, I've lived there, along with France, Belgium, Holland and germany and all the latter have better infrastructures and life styles than good old fashioned capitalist Britain. Thatcher got the ball rolling, and Blair went further and made things even better. I noticed the change. British roads were rubbish, it was a case of lurching from from rut to the next. And the cars on the roads were held together with twine. Over time the roads became much better and towards the end of Blair's run they were actually quite good, nearly as good as ours and maybe even on a par with the USA. Use my index of road quality to reflect the relative merits of the economies anytime you like. I just have to ask one thing, wtf are you on ? You are either very clever at what you are doing, or you are away with the fairies.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 3:55:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I'm amazed you know all this because according to your own admission you haven't spent any or very little time in Britain. No, I said I hadn't lived there. I've been visiting Britain regularly for quite a long time and thus get shapshots of where they're at on each visit. There is change and they have progressed slowly. Though saying their roads have always been good just isn't true. At one stage they had the worst roads of any OECD country I visited. And their vehicle fleet was also bad ( still is from some angles, like the absence of air conditioning in so many cars ). Thank Thatcher, Major and Blair for getting things running again.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 3:57:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen So what youre saying is, that you have far more experience, and far more frequent and recent, of the reality of Wales, living as you do on the other side of the world, than I might, living 30 miles from the border? That's right, being so close you've developed myopia.

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 3:59:09 AM)
So let me get this straight - your verdict on the UK is accurate, because you're a frequent visitor But my verdict on Wales is wrong on the basis of my frequent visits? You sir, are an arrogant twit E

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 4:03:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Yep - what he doesnt seem to get is that if Wales is that bad, then how come so many English go and settle there? Why would it be that we English would leave the land of plenty to live in the alleged squalor of Wales? This is an absurd statement. Wales is de-populated. Population: Wales - under 3,000,000 England - over 50,000,000 Clearly there can't be many people moving to live in Wales.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 4:06:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen But my verdict on Wales is wrong on the basis of my frequent visits? I'm sure you'd be an expert on the price of petrol or what it costs at various points, or which road to take because of road works. But your statements about how everyone is moving to live there and how happy the jolly Welsh are with everything simply doesn't square with the facts. Then you have the cheek to question their expectation that the English pay for a prison to be built there.

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 4:16:42 AM)
Very sorry Paul, but I'm afraid you are so totally incorrect it hurts! Wales is underpopulated per km compared to England (which is in the top two/three of population/square km in Europe). But this is to ignore that a lot of Wales doesnt provide good ground for habitation, being pretty mountainous and also to ignore that England is well overpopulated. Indeed these two factors, the underpopulation on the one hand and the overpopulation on the other, together with the scenic mountainous nature of Wales, make the country popular with English people who'd like to get out of the crowded parts of the island to somewhere more pleasant to live. Tell you what - next time you're over, you take a trip to Wales - proper Wales up in Snowdonia - see how many shops and businesses are run by outsiders who have chosen to live there. Or would that be the English exploiting the Welsh again? E

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 4:28:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Very sorry Paul, but I'm afraid you are so totally incorrect it hurts! Wales is underpopulated per km compared to England (which is in the top two/three of population/square km in Europe). But this is to ignore that a lot of Wales doesnt provide good ground for habitation, being pretty mountainous and also to ignore that England is well overpopulated. Indeed these two factors, the underpopulation on the one hand and the overpopulation on the other, together with the scenic mountainous nature of Wales, make the country popular with English people who'd like to get out of the crowded parts of the island to somewhere more pleasant to live. Tell you what - next time you're over, you take a trip to Wales - proper Wales up in Snowdonia - see how many shops and businesses are run by outsiders who have chosen to live there. Or would that be the English exploiting the Welsh again? You're contradicting yourself. If Wales was so wonderful, a good proportion of those 50+ million people would be heading down the road. They don't even need to get on a boat. But they don't. They stay in England, and the reason is simple. England lives in the lap of luxury, while Wales has been totally fucked over and offers very little to the vast majority. Look at it another way. NZ's North Island has a similar population ( and culture Rugby, Sheep etc ), yet it doesn't have the same population to draw on nearby. The nearest is the South Island ( 1 million ) or Australia a 3 hour flight or several days by ship ( 20 million ). If Wales was just a little bit more like the North Island the population of Wales would be over 10 million easy. The reason it's so de-populated is because it's on the receiving end the whole time. They're the last in line at the soup kitchen.

RCdc -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 5:01:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz You're contradicting yourself. If Wales was so wonderful, a good proportion of those 50+ million people would be heading down the road. They don't even need to get on a boat. But they don't. They stay in England, and the reason is simple. England lives in the lap of luxury, while Wales has been totally fucked over and offers very little to the vast majority. Define 'fucked over'. Wales is a beautiful area. The thing it is lacking is investment from large companies, but just like any country, the UK has rich spots and poor spots. People moving to Wales and Cornwall are those with second homes or more, retired, affluent weekend holiday makers because there are no jobs in the country. There aren't many jobs in most of the UK unless you travel into the cities. Not skilled work anyway. Economically, Wales is no worse off than Cornwall and most of the SW and alot of the North. The more affluent are to blame for the shortage in accomodation and the rise in its price. Second home owners lift the prices and take over the housing from local people. It's got nothing to do with which part of the UK it is. the.dark.

Aneirin -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/14/2008 6:32:43 AM)
I would'nt worry dark, the only thing that is fucked over, is his understanding about things, he is clearly clueless about it all and is just making up crap to wind up the English.

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