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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 4:18:01 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Just because a master says it's ok does not make it suddenly full of cherries and butterflies.



I didn't say it was.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Again, I think it's pretty strange and disrespectful to be ok talking about a persons death in such detail with strangers and that you seem completely comfortable doing it with multiple people. That is and always has been my only issue with the posting.



Okay LA, but that's you and what you feel and think. But just like me you're not part of her experience, but only witnessing it from the sidelines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You choose to interpret her posts here as some desire to discuss the grieving process- which I also find odd because nothing of her original post was about that, it was in fact specifically focused on having a protective reaction over others. It just so happened that in the process of posting what she did, she initiated a protective response on MY part- and suddenly I'm the "bad guy" because of that, but she's nearly a saint because she started it first?



Yes I did choose to interpret the thread this way, and I stand by that choice. Let's not forget that I have been in an active supporting role with SlaveIndigoChild and her Master off the boards and therefore I have additional information which hasn't been shared here on which to base my interpretation.

Besides, my issue with what you posted is exactly that, what you posted. If you want to perceive it as a personal attack on you then fine, please feel free to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It's actually a fairly common choice in my family's history to choose to die at home and at peace rather than surrounded by doctors and prolonging pain. If she or anyone else wants to actually discuss how to grieve and the entire general process of grieving, we should go enjoy doing that on Off Topic.



Here we go again with the use of the word 'should'. SlaveIndigoChild just like you and just like me has equal right to post wherever and whatever she likes on condition it doesn't infringe the TOS of this site. So far I haven't seen any intervention of Moderator11 on this thread to say what should be posted and where.

Again you are posting from the reference point of your family and what you would do. What has this got to do with SlaveIndigoChild's experience and what she actually did?

Oh and also, she is a slave to a Master in an M/s dynamic and therefore to my mind this thread is just as appropriately placed here as it would be in the Off Topic section. This is how SlaveIndigoChild relates to her Master and his family.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

But graphically describing the circumstances of anothers death to a bunch of online strangers just to make a point about feeling protective? That's just not something I will condone. If you somehow twist that into trying to prevent someone from "grieving" then that's your choice. I don't see a connection or how not sharing that particular information will somehow cause her even more pain.


What's with the blanket assumption that we are all strangers here to SlaveIndigoChild? Does this mean that we are all strangers to each other and friendships between fellow posters don't exist? This I find to be an interesting perspective from someone with as many postings as you have.

Nobody is expecting you to agree with or condone anything here. There are things which are posted, and even entire threads started on things which I don't necessarily condone or accept. But there is also the issue of respect, and it is this issue of respect which prevents me from making personal attacks on other posters simply because they are choosing to share intimate aspects of their lives on the boards which I don't necessarily agree with or accept. They have as much right to post about such things as I have of not accepting such things and I don't feel the urge of imposing myself into such a situation and assuming the role of self-appointed moderator. I prefer to do the adult thing and either stop reading the thread and/or refrain from voicing my objections.

Read what you like into this response, I don't care. If you want to see it as twisting your words or as a personal attack on you then that is your right to see it that way. I don't share that view and not having had any direct contact with you please be assured that I have no issues with you personally.

And I would much rather this thread continue on the topic in the OP rather than descend into petty squabbling between individual posters.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 4:48:10 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I can tell you how I took a boy.. his ass clear up in the air.. how I spread his cheeks and pushed in some rather large thing.  I can tell you how an ex of mine, bashed my head into a wall or how a dominant friend of mine did some things for show.  I can tell you how my medical stuff went at the last doctor visit and tell you how my finances are affected by wall street and argue the finer points of government, but hang me on an upside down cross if I should share with people I talk to about how my loved one suffered and died and how we all watched it.

If I am too graphic in my pain, loss and struggle, I will be found socially inapproprete and somehow emotionally needy.  For those who have attacked me previously, they see this an opportunity to find me faulty and add a little snark all on the premise that I had no right to share so graphically my experience.  Dang me... dang me... hang me from the highest tree!  Regard me like a murderer... death to fucking me!

Okay... let's get real here.  The facts are.. some people don't like it.. some people don't mind... but if this is how someone is treated for expressing their experience with death and what some might view as ugly... then that says a bit more about us than it does about the poster in my opinion.  Death is a part of life and even a part of bdsm in some rare and awful cases.  It is a part of life we need to stop looking at as we do sometimes.  Rather than find the beauty of a death situation we see the ugly, the parts we cannot handle and deem it all unspeakable.  I am sorry... but death and it's processes will never have that hold on me.  I am sorry if it has a hold on others because when it happens.. and it will... some will find it as ugly as it has been seen here.

Where is the disrespect to a person in telling of their death process?  Isn't that a part of life.  Dignity is taken?  I think not!  Dignity is found in the life they lived no matter their end.  If I must wear diapers or be fed with a tube.. isn't that almost like how I came into the world and isn't that as simply put... a part of the life process?  Why shouldn't we speak about it in a freely democratic society amoung adults?

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 7:25:07 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I understand that the original depictions of this man's death were very graphic.  Graphic things often disturb me.  That is why I would actually need to talk about what I am witnessing in all its brutality.  It is a way of processing it all.  Did she have the father's permission?  I don't know.  She had the permission of the child who seemed closest to the man and was, likely based on his knowledge of what his father would find acceptable, able to make the call of whether such a posting was appropriate.  I have no way of knowing.  None of us do.

I understand her process.  I also understand her position in relationship to her Master.  If he had deemed this posting inappropriate, it would not be here.  She likely would have found other ways of dealing with this.  Again, I have no way of knowing any of this either.  No one else does either.

Has there been a wonderful forgetting about the irrationality and poor judgement associated with deep grief as well as the tendancy to turn inward and lose track of the rest of the world?  Honestly, I remember very well how these things feel, especially in the face of the death of someone who had an impact on my life.  Maybe there was some poor judgement on both her and her Master's part, but I doubt it was intentional and we can argue all day about whether or not there was such lack of judgement.  Perhaps her postings have been a little more focused on herself than some feel is appropriate.  She can only discuss what she is able to experience and express.  She is communicating her position in the midst of this event.  Whether this is appropriate is yet another point we can contend all day long.

The fact remains that this was about a slave's role during a vulnerable time for her Master.  It became about much more when death entered the picture.  There are good and worthy things to discuss, but many of the current issues seem less important overall than the expressions of comfort to a family who has experienced loss.  I was deeply uncomfortable with the opening depiction.  I was so disturbed not only because I did not know if the man wanted such things about his condition revealed to the public, but because I have sat by such a bedside and remember with clarity how difficult it was and how those machines and cries of pain clawed at my very soul.  I had to talk about it.  I did it privately (it is just my way), but I was even more graphic than what has been revealed here because I needed to be in order to deal with it effectively.  I had to name each and every sensation that haunted me so it could be exposed to the light and lose its fearful grip on me.

I have wished my best to the OP, but express it again.  It is no easy thing to lose someone you have taken care of in such an intimate way.  Take care of yourself, your Master, and his family at this difficult time.

lovingpet

edited for a proofreading error

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 10/25/2008 7:30:19 PM >

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 7:45:09 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Actually your post kicked up my desire to be protective of your masters father.  For me your descriptions were way too graphic and personal to have needed to be put here just for you to make the point you wanted and it felt like a violation- when he is in no state to do anything about it for himself. 

I know that those are my feelings, but I think it illustrates your point perfectly- when we see "wrongs" and feel connected to others, we want to do something/anything to make it right again.

I think you should put more energy into remaining stable and not letting your own sense of ego get so easily punctured and feeling "excluded."


I really did not think that I could be shocked on this web site by something some one posted. But your remark to  Slaveindigochild  in my opinion is legendary as far as thoughtless, arrogant and cruel remarks go.
I won't presume as you did to try to understand what motivates you to behave in such a way .......I honestly cannot think of anything that would excuse your behavior.
When in the future I think of things here that have been written that define a person unfortunately this will be something that will stick with me and  sadly define who you are in the most negative way.

scarlet




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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 7:54:42 PM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
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Status: offline 		First of all my sympathies to the OP's master, his family and her on the lost of her master's father. Many who have posted in here I have great respect for and will continue to enjoy what you write. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't that is the beauty of having my own mind.

Being a professional medium, death is no mystery to me. Nor do i find it to be a taboo topic. I also understand how some, not all, people go through a bubble of numbness after losing a love one, and in a year they might not even remember how they came to the decisions they made prior to the death and after. This I have heard from many grieving people, and experienced it myself. I was stunned that the OP put this in a public post verses a journal or personal emails. Mostly because of her statement of serving her Master for just 3 months. Reason behind this is from listening to families who have had the press pick up on a death and their privacy was invaded. That is the only reason i had some difficulty with this post. I let it go, until it came around again. LA does not need anyone coming to her defense, I would assume. I do not know any history between LA and the OP, nor do I want to, but I also debated a long time in commenting on this. It isn't to shame the OP, but I too found it questionable coming from my own experiences. I have tried to not judge, but honestly it left a sadness within me.

Again my sympathies, and blessings
oceanwynds

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 8:03:05 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
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quote:

I have tried to not judge, but honestly it left a sadness within me.
quote:

ORIGINAL: oceanwynds

First of all my sympathies to the OP's master, his family and her on the lost of her master's father. Many who have posted in here I have great respect for and will continue to enjoy what you write. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't that is the beauty of having my own mind.

Being a professional medium, death is no mystery to me. Nor do i find it to be a taboo topic. I also understand how some, not all, people go through a bubble of numbness after losing a love one, and in a year they might not even remember how they came to the decisions they made prior to the death and after. This I have heard from many grieving people, and experienced it myself. I was stunned that the OP put this in a public post verses a journal or personal emails. Mostly because of her statement of serving her Master for just 3 months. Reason behind this is from listening to families who have had the press pick up on a death and their privacy was invaded. That is the only reason i had some difficulty with this post. I let it go, until it came around again. LA does not need anyone coming to her defense, I would assume. I do not know any history between LA and the OP, nor do I want to, but I also debated a long time in commenting on this. It isn't to shame the OP, but I too found it questionable coming from my own experiences. I have tried to not judge, but honestly it left a sadness within me.

Again my sympathies, and blessings
oceanwynds


I have tried to not judge,

You just did ....................

scarlet



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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 8:06:37 PM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
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Status: offline 		Yes, why i said i tried not to judge, but i did. i own up to that.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 8:14:41 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I think what is most important is to embrace the humanity shown in this thread.  All have shown some cracks and imperfections.  It's not the end of the world and not worth holding such a strict accountability of each other.  The OP need support rather than a critique.  We each need tolerence of one another.  The big question is whether or not we can rise above our opinions and histories, and egos and rise to the challenge before us.

lovingpet

PS:  My post was aimed at no one in particular.  It was just my own take on the sensitive matter at hand.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 8:51:09 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		My question is where is my intolerance of anything except putting a graphic description of a dying man on a cyber forum?  Everyone seems to be piling on offenses I've made here.  I guess that's just how people see things, but I see it as much ado about nothing. 

Perhaps it's the librarian in me but if someone wants to discuss the grieving process in a group forum, I'd consider that off topic for a kink/ds based forum.  That would be like asking "Where does the book on grieving go?" and I say "It should likely go in the psychology or self-help section"  Somehow that seems to have been taken as a person judgement issue when to me it's a matter of cataloguing.

People also seem to be getting the impression that because I take issue with that ONE PART of the original post, that somehow I'm completely being an awful cold inhumane person who has no care or thought for a persons grief.  Like I mentioned in another post, if someone is that sensitive, then they really shouldn't expose themselves to the rigors of online posting.  The fact is, again I repeat, my only issue is with the graphic description. 

If anyone wants to try and claim anything more than that, well that is of your own creation and desire to take offense to something that doesn't exist.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:04:03 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		No matter where one stands on any of the issues/topic's or whatever that have been expressed on this thread... we all have a right to have an opinion and such.  What some found offensive in discription is understandable.  What some found offensive in the history of the op and certain posters and a continuation of an issue between them at a time when a real life struggle was taking place is also understandable.  The thing is... can't we all disagree without personal insults?  On a thread where so much pain is manifesting, is it too much to consider that maybe our right to be snarky or bitchy or anything else upsetting might be put to rest at least for a time?  What is the saying... something to the effect of if you haven't walked a mile in someone's shoes... you have no right to judge them?  We are all judgemental.. I know I can be.  But in a time of crisis... right or wrong... we are human and polly anna or not... I just think that it is real nice to be able to show some compassion even if we have issue with someone.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:16:05 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I claimed nothing of the sort, but do understand your opinion.  My concern is the timing of the voicing of these concerns by you and others.  There are people hurting and do not need added distress.  If I found it that offensive, I would deal with it at another time privately.  I know that is only my way of things.

You chose a much more aggressive approach.  The reactions to it cannot possibly be that surprising, but I agree it has gone well beyond what was necessary.  Both sides are at odds when a person who is a regular contributor needs comfort and support.  Meeting the need at hand seems much more constructive.  Only my opinion.

lovingpet  

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:23:27 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

My question is where is my intolerance of anything except putting a graphic description of a dying man on a cyber forum? Everyone seems to be piling on offenses I've made here. I guess that's just how people see things, but I see it as much ado about nothing.

Perhaps it's the librarian in me but if someone wants to discuss the grieving process in a group forum, I'd consider that off topic for a kink/ds based forum. That would be like asking "Where does the book on grieving go?" and I say "It should likely go in the psychology or self-help section" Somehow that seems to have been taken as a person judgement issue when to me it's a matter of cataloguing.

People also seem to be getting the impression that because I take issue with that ONE PART of the original post, that somehow I'm completely being an awful cold inhumane person who has no care or thought for a persons grief. Like I mentioned in another post, if someone is that sensitive, then they really shouldn't expose themselves to the rigors of online posting. The fact is, again I repeat, my only issue is with the graphic description.

If anyone wants to try and claim anything more than that, well that is of your own creation and desire to take offense to something that doesn't exist.


LA, all I can say is if you did have your own library I would make damn sure I would get my books back on time. I wouldn't want you coming after me looking for library fines. I never said you were cold but I give you this much, you're certainly persistent.

You write about 'much ado about nothing' so I take it you're familiar with Shakespeare, right? Okay, well the great bard also said, "There is nothing good and bad in this world but thinking makes it so."

And the thing is LA I feel just as strongly about what I have written as you do, and yes, I guess I'm saying here that I can be very very stubborn. So yes, yet again, yes you do have a point, and I do accept that you have this point, but so too does everyone else and so too does SlaveIndigoChild. You've made your points, I've made mine, and I guess this is starting to go round in circles.

Okay. Wouldn't it be better if maybe you took your own ego out of the equation? That way it would cease to be personal, right? That way you can also start taking your own advice about posting such stuff on an online forum.

And just in case you're going to have difficulties doing that, let me tell you that I do really like you and don't have anything personally against you.

So can we at least be friends over this and move on? What do you say to that?


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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:29:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		What ego is there in saying "I find it to be disrespectful to post such graphic descriptions of a dying man on a general online forum, especially when it has no direct relevance to the actual proposed topic?"

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:33:27 PM   
NuevaVida


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I have to say I'm kind of surprised by all the flak LA is getting here, given that in very recent threads the overall theme has been, if you're going to post to a public forum, you surely must be doing so with the knowledge that (a) not everyone will agree; (b) some will disagree in ways you don't like; (c) anyone has the right to post anything to any thread, so long as it is within TOS.

What I saw in LA's post here was that the OP touched something in her that felt wrong, and that compelled her to speak her thoughts about it. Embedded in pages of support for the OP's situation, I didn't find LA's post to be offensive at all; rather she added a different point of view to the thread. Certainly the death of a master's father is a delicate topic, but I didn't see anyone here post anything unexpected. I recently posted something personal & painful in Off Topics, knowing that there may be people reading it with negative judgment. It's the chance we take when we reach out. I am truly glad the OP is getting the support she needs, just as I am very grateful for the support I have received. But any time we go public with something so personal, there will be others who disagree, and who voice those disagreements. It's all part of what makes this place so great, in my opinion.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:40:25 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

What ego is there in saying "I find it to be disrespectful to post such graphic descriptions of a dying man on a general online forum, especially when it has no direct relevance to the actual proposed topic?"


Nice try but I'm not prepared to go there. But maybe you can stop and consider why you feel the need to labour the same point over and over and over again, especially with 'a bunch of strangers' on an online forum. You can try all you like to make this a personal conflict, but please don't expect me to join you.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:46:48 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I don't mind the disagreement so much as the timing, tone, and repetitive nature of the matter.  I see value on both sides, but believe there is an appropriate time and place for this disagreement.   It is only my belief.  I have said that repeatedly as well.  Page after page of this back and forth from both sides.  Enough already.....

lovingpet

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:52:09 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Hi lovingpet,

I think repetitive happens when someone explains their point and continues to be questioned on it. Not just here, but anywhere. I respect your belief. I also respect LA's belief. On a forum like this, disagreement is the nature of the beast, I suppose.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/25/2008 9:53:20 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Who is belaboring the point?  I made one initial post.  I only responded again when someone got all irked and judgy to ME about it.  I keep repeating that point because a few people (you included) seem to want to throw everything and the kitchen sink into what's "really going on" and what this is "really all about."

First it was grieving, then it was "shoulding" and now it's "ego"

I've just been repeating myself.  I guess you get points for adding new material, but it doesn't stick now any more than it did in the beginning.

Who has the ego?  The one who own and makes one basic claim and sticks to it, or the ones who keep pushing back and trying to force that person to admit she's been bad and icky and dispassionate and cruel with a rotating circle of pop-psych motivations?

You are now saying "Let's just end it"  I'm not the one who started it or kept pushing for new perspectives.  I had mine, I was happy to post it, and move on.  When that merited further elaboration, I elaborated, but essentially just kept repeating the same point.  Now you're trying to say it's all my ego that has brought us here.

Now I could respond by saying you're just being defensive and passive aggressive and can't just admit you got in a tizzy and lost perspective and couldn't see past your OWN egos and protective desires and can't just graciously bow out.

But that WOULD be belaboring the point.

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RE: Feeling very protective - 10/26/2008 5:46:54 AM   
SultryMomma


Posts: 48
Joined: 7/11/2004
Status: offline 		This is directed to no one. I know personally, everyone handles death in their own way. Some may stay quiet about it, some may talk with everyone around them, and some may shout it out to anyone and everyone that will listen, including total strangers. Everyone has the right to handle it the way they need to.

SM
(Kris)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Feeling very protective - 10/26/2008 7:31:06 AM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

FR

This thread seems to have lost its initial purpose, I will say that when people are grieving it does affect them its not just about the person who is ill the people that are left behind hurt too. I dont see how its innapropriate to mention it, many of us use personal experiance to explain things that they have been wondering about.

To the actual question yes I have felt very protective, i think that most of us do when our partners are hurting about something. When I am in a relationship with someone I tend to find that my emotions mimic the person I am with. It can be hard then to pull myself away from it and be the strength that they need to carry on. Its hard not to slip down into their sadness rather than maintain calmness and be something away from all that.

I feel for you hunny and I hope that you both find a way through this, sending you happy thoughts.

This is an interesting point: the point about imitating the feelings of others. It would have been counter productive to imitate His grief. Indeed i had no prior criterion, or pattern or indeed protocol upon which to bas my behaviour and the rawness, the sheer humanity of the situation quite simply forced me to be authentic and to behave and react to family members (whom i had never met before) with integrity and strength,
Howeve i am in a dynamic and indeed i was representing my Master in situations where His grief was overwhelming.
Actually not slipping down into His sadness as you voice it, is some of the best service i can offer.
Thak you for your support. 

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