RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me'

RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:04:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I simply don't want a President who agrees with the idea of "sharing the wealth", because it comes right around to this bullshit socialist agenda of "economic fairness". Everything has to be "fair". No, we sure wouldn't want an outrageous idea like fairness spreading around. You must not have noticed, but we do already have "a President who agrees with the idea of sharing the wealth". Only his policies have 95% of the population sharing what little wealth they have to benefit the wealthiest 5% of the population. Not to worry though, it's all going to come "trickling down" any day now.

TheUtopian -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:13:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Interesting video. Watch as ABC's Terry Moran argues for Obama while Joe "Joe the Plumber" Wurzelbacher refutes her every point. One-hundred-and-twenty plus posts, and not a single mention of the real tax increase that's just around the corner : A sizable loss of purchasing power due to a disproportionate expansion of the money supply via Wall Street bail outs. And more bail outs---and a even greater loss of purchasing power--- are coming, whether it be McCain or Obama. - R

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:13:52 PM)
The Democrats have to be desperate to go to such lengths to try to discredit this nobody, when the debate isn't even about him. The debate is about Obama's Marxist statement directed at him that was captured on video. These pathetic attacks on this nobody from Ohio who Obama approached are only a distraction on the part of the Obama team. Once again, McCain didn't approach the guy, Obama did. Maybe Obama should have vetted Joe the plumber better, eh? quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Don't you ever wish they would tell us all about this mysterious Obama guy sometime? But I guess I'll get what I can take, and sit back and relax and watch as they dig up all they possibly can on this Joe guy from Ohio. quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Owner CNN will momentarily,after a commercial break,tell us all about Joe the not really Plumber. Sanity isn't it a shame your candidate didn't "dig up"all he possibly could on Joe the Plumber,before he made him his poster boy for the last debate.Same sort of mistake he made with his V.P. selection ....huh?

Elisabella -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:15:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Sanity, Joe does not seem to grasp the fact that the US has a progressive tax system...not a flat tax....and has had since the passage of the constitutional amendment which permitted the income tax. Why should a wealty person pay a higher percent of income in tax than a poor one? Because it has always been felt that it was unfair for the poor to bear an undue share of the burden. See I don't get this. How is a flat tax making the poor bear an undue share of the burden? If every income were taxed at 10% (easy number to do the math with) then people making $50k would pay $5k and people making $2B would be paying, yeah you guessed it, $200M in taxes a year. Seems to me that the person paying $200M bears a bit more of a burden than the person paying $5k. That's just the way percentages work. IMO it's discriminatory to expect higher incomes to pay a higher percentage. If you really want to be fair, they should pay a lower percentage, because 5% of 100K is the same as 10% of 50K, but FWIW I think the tax percentage should be the same for all individual taxpayers. Businesses on the other hand are a different story.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:18:51 PM)
When Socialists get to decide whats fair, why does it always seem fairest to them that the Socialist at the very top gets to live in obscene luxury while everyone else gets to suffer equally? Don't the top 5% pay most of the taxes as things are now? I'd have to look it up, but it's something like that. quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife No, we sure wouldn't want an outrageous idea like fairness spreading around. You must not have noticed, but we do already have "a President who agrees with the idea of sharing the wealth". Only his policies have 95% of the population sharing what little wealth they have to benefit the wealthiest 5% of the population. Not to worry though, it's all going to come "trickling down" any day now.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:21:48 PM)
I think, I'm pretty sure that the guy asked Obama about a flat tax in the video... I'll have to go back and watch it again though, before I can be sure. quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella See I don't get this. How is a flat tax making the poor bear an undue share of the burden? If every income were taxed at 10% (easy number to do the math with) then people making $50k would pay $5k and people making $2B would be paying, yeah you guessed it, $200M in taxes a year. Seems to me that the person paying $200M bears a bit more of a burden than the person paying $5k. That's just the way percentages work. IMO it's discriminatory to expect higher incomes to pay a higher percentage. If you really want to be fair, they should pay a lower percentage, because 5% of 100K is the same as 10% of 50K, but FWIW I think the tax percentage should be the same for all individual taxpayers. Businesses on the other hand are a different story.

slvemike4u -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Sanity, Joe does not seem to grasp the fact that the US has a progressive tax system...not a flat tax....and has had since the passage of the constitutional amendment which permitted the income tax. Why should a wealty person pay a higher percent of income in tax than a poor one? Because it has always been felt that it was unfair for the poor to bear an undue share of the burden. See I don't get this. How is a flat tax making the poor bear an undue share of the burden? If every income were taxed at 10% (easy number to do the math with) then people making $50k would pay $5k and people making $2B would be paying, yeah you guessed it, $200M in taxes a year. Seems to me that the person paying $200M bears a bit more of a burden than the person paying $5k. That's just the way percentages work. IMO it's discriminatory to expect higher incomes to pay a higher percentage. If you really want to be fair, they should pay a lower percentage, because 5% of 100K is the same as 10% of 50K, but FWIW I think the tax percentage should be the same for all individual taxpayers. Businesses on the other hand are a different story. While your math seems to be spot on,you go off the rails with your views on proportion...the 50,000 dollar schmoe who has payed 5,000 dollars is left with 45,000 dollars for all the rest of life's expence's(including BTW state and local taxes) while the 2Billion dollar man has 1.8 billion dollars to muddle thru with....if you think that is fair...you need to take another look.BTW the 2 Billion dollar man has prospered pretty well as an American citizen ,has he not?

Elisabella -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:27:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I simply don't want a President who agrees with the idea of "sharing the wealth", because it comes right around to this bullshit socialist agenda of "economic fairness". Everything has to be "fair". No, we sure wouldn't want an outrageous idea like fairness spreading around. I'm all for fairness. Fairness would be taxing every American the same percentage of his income. The rich would pay more, the poor would pay less - they would all pay the same proportion though. That's fair. What's unfair is raising the percentage of tax paid based on income. Especially considering that those high income people would pay more in taxes anyway. How is it fair, by any definition of the word, to tell those people "yeah you know, there are a lot of people who want what you have, so I think we're going to take it from you and give it to them. We're talking about income here, not inherited wealth. Income is money earned. Considering that most people who earn a lot of money got there through hard work (high grades in HS, taking SAT prep instead of partying, maintaining scholarship-level grades in university (whether or not they were on scholarship), internships, entry level positions, and proving their worth enough to be promoted over maybe 20, 30 years) I think it's the epitome of UNfair to expect those people to subsidize people who didn't take that track. It's all well and good to get a liberal arts degree in philosophy instead of an MBA, but when you're making $40k and That Designer Blonde Bitch your artsy friends made fun of, who is now a CFO of a major corporation, is pulling in nearly $300k, you have NO right to whine and expect socialist policies to make things "fair" by some twisted definition of the word. FAIR is accepting consequences for your life decisions. That is the epitome of JUSTICE. MERCY on the other hand, is quite unfair. Lenience and sympathy? Also unfair. Compassionate clemency? Ditto. You can call socialism merciful, lenient, sympathetic, compassionate, etc. but in no way is it either just or fair.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:30:39 PM)
Duplicate post

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:31:55 PM)
Here's one link I found, and it looks pretty legit. The top 10% of taxpayers pay almost 71% of the taxes, while the bottom 50% only pays about 3%. http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6 So, tell me again mike - what is Obama going to do exactly to make that more fair?

Elisabella -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:32:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Sanity, Joe does not seem to grasp the fact that the US has a progressive tax system...not a flat tax....and has had since the passage of the constitutional amendment which permitted the income tax. Why should a wealty person pay a higher percent of income in tax than a poor one? Because it has always been felt that it was unfair for the poor to bear an undue share of the burden. See I don't get this. How is a flat tax making the poor bear an undue share of the burden? If every income were taxed at 10% (easy number to do the math with) then people making $50k would pay $5k and people making $2B would be paying, yeah you guessed it, $200M in taxes a year. Seems to me that the person paying $200M bears a bit more of a burden than the person paying $5k. That's just the way percentages work. IMO it's discriminatory to expect higher incomes to pay a higher percentage. If you really want to be fair, they should pay a lower percentage, because 5% of 100K is the same as 10% of 50K, but FWIW I think the tax percentage should be the same for all individual taxpayers. Businesses on the other hand are a different story. While your math seems to be spot on,you go off the rails with your views on proportion...the 50,000 dollar schmoe who has payed 5,000 dollars is left with 45,000 dollars for all the rest of life's expence's(including BTW state and local taxes) while the 2Billion dollar man has 1.8 billion dollars to muddle thru with....if you think that is fair...you need to take another look.BTW the 2 Billion dollars man has prospered pretty well as an American citizen ,has he not? No, sorry, the first guy isn't "left with" $45k The first guy EARNED 45k. The second guy doesn't just randomly "have" $1.8B He EARNED $1.8B. Do I think it's fair that if a person earns x amount of dollars, then their standard of living should reflect that amount? Oh hell yes. In fact I would like you to explain to me how it would be more fair for a person to be arbitrarily given money that he didn't earn. Or on the flip side, how it would be fair for a person to arbitrarily lose money that he did earn?

slvemike4u -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:38:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Sanity, Joe does not seem to grasp the fact that the US has a progressive tax system...not a flat tax....and has had since the passage of the constitutional amendment which permitted the income tax. Why should a wealty person pay a higher percent of income in tax than a poor one? Because it has always been felt that it was unfair for the poor to bear an undue share of the burden. See I don't get this. How is a flat tax making the poor bear an undue share of the burden? If every income were taxed at 10% (easy number to do the math with) then people making $50k would pay $5k and people making $2B would be paying, yeah you guessed it, $200M in taxes a year. Seems to me that the person paying $200M bears a bit more of a burden than the person paying $5k. That's just the way percentages work. IMO it's discriminatory to expect higher incomes to pay a higher percentage. If you really want to be fair, they should pay a lower percentage, because 5% of 100K is the same as 10% of 50K, but FWIW I think the tax percentage should be the same for all individual taxpayers. Businesses on the other hand are a different story. While your math seems to be spot on,you go off the rails with your views on proportion...the 50,000 dollar schmoe who has payed 5,000 dollars is left with 45,000 dollars for all the rest of life's expence's(including BTW state and local taxes) while the 2Billion dollar man has 1.8 billion dollars to muddle thru with....if you think that is fair...you need to take another look.BTW the 2 Billion dollars man has prospered pretty well as an American citizen ,has he not? No, sorry, the first guy isn't "left with" $45k The first guy EARNED 45k. The second guy doesn't just randomly "have" $1.8B He EARNED $1.8B. Do I think it's fair that if a person earns x amount of dollars, then their standard of living should reflect that amount? Oh hell yes. In fact I would like you to explain to me how it would be more fair for a person to be arbitrarily given money that he didn't earn. Or on the flip side, how it would be fair for a person to arbitrarily lose money that he did earn? All that needs to be said about your views when discussing taxes,is the line where you refer to the low end guy paying less taxes as being given money.whle the rich man paying his taxes is losing money.funny how one's words reveal one's true agenda...is it not.

rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:45:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm all for fairness. Fairness would be taxing every American the same percentage of his income. The rich would pay more, the poor would pay less - they would all pay the same proportion though. That's fair. What's unfair is raising the percentage of tax paid based on income. Especially considering that those high income people would pay more in taxes anyway. How is it fair, by any definition of the word, to tell those people "yeah you know, there are a lot of people who want what you have, so I think we're going to take it from you and give it to them. We're talking about income here, not inherited wealth. Income is money earned. Considering that most people who earn a lot of money got there through hard work (high grades in HS, taking SAT prep instead of partying, maintaining scholarship-level grades in university (whether or not they were on scholarship), internships, entry level positions, and proving their worth enough to be promoted over maybe 20, 30 years) I think it's the epitome of UNfair to expect those people to subsidize people who didn't take that track. It's all well and good to get a liberal arts degree in philosophy instead of an MBA, but when you're making $40k and That Designer Blonde Bitch your artsy friends made fun of, who is now a CFO of a major corporation, is pulling in nearly $300k, you have NO right to whine and expect socialist policies to make things "fair" by some twisted definition of the word. FAIR is accepting consequences for your life decisions. That is the epitome of JUSTICE. MERCY on the other hand, is quite unfair. Lenience and sympathy? Also unfair. Compassionate clemency? Ditto. You can call socialism merciful, lenient, sympathetic, compassionate, etc. but in no way is it either just or fair. Wow! I'm not even sure where to begin in responding to this. Are we debating tax policy here or your bitterness at some bad college experiences? It wasn't me, really. I didn't have any "artsy friends".

Elisabella -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 8:46:19 PM)
quote: All that needs to be said about your views when discussing taxes,is the line where you refer to the low end guy paying less taxes as being given money.whle the rich man paying his taxes is losing money.funny how one's words reveal one's true agenda...is it not. If a rich man is paying a higher percentage of taxes than anyone else, he is losing money. He is being charged for his success. I think that everyone should pay a flat tax. Anyone paying higher than that is losing money, anyone paying less than that is being given money. If you average out the percentages of current US tax brackets (the lowest being 10% and the highest at 35%) you would get 22.5%. That seems a decent amount for a flat tax to me. IMO anyone paying less than that average is paying less than their share, and anyone paying more than that is paying more than their share. And paying less than their share is keeping money that they shouldn't be keeping. Not given money in a handout, but given money in a discount. Paying more than their share is paying money they shouldn't be paying. Losing money. That's my true agenda, FWIW. Everyone paying the same percentage of taxes instead of being given the "you're a failure" discount or the "we're all jealous" overcharge.

slvemike4u -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 9:04:41 PM)
And yet of the 41 states that have an income tax 35 use a graduated (re:progressive)tax plan.The federal income tax has been a graduated(re:progressive)since 1913....and still the rich manage to get rich and do well..is there a possibility this happens to work....or has it been unfair to all those entrepanuers and millionaires all these years.BTW you do realise the rich hire very competant tax lawyers to reduce their burden has much as possible...and they are quite good at it.....Somehow Elisabella we have muddled along with a Graduated tax plan for almost one hundred years....it seems to be working.

Elisabella -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 9:10:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u And yet of the 41 states that have an income tax 35 use a graduated (re:progressive)tax plan.The federal income tax has been a graduated(re:progressive)since 1913....and still the rich manage to get rich and do well..is there a possibility this happens to work....or has it been unfair to all those entrepanuers and millionaires all these years.BTW you do realise the rich hire very competant tax lawyers to reduce their burden has much as possible...and they are quite good at it.....Somehow Elisabella we have muddled along with a Graduated tax plan for almost one hundred years....it seems to be working. Personally I don't see our (or rather, the US's, as I guess in a few months I'll be officially considered an expat) current economy as 'working.' I think our economy needs a lot of changes, and a flat tax would only be one of them. I think it would be better for our economy to tax high levels of savings rather than high levels of income - that would ensure that the money continues to fluctuate in the economy. A person making $2B a year isn't a problem in itself - it's when he saves $1.5B and removes it from the economy that things get muddy. I do have a question for you - if you think our current system is working so well, why are you voting for someone who bases his platform on 'change'?

MadRabbit -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 9:13:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I simply don't want a President who agrees with the idea of "sharing the wealth", because it comes right around to this bullshit socialist agenda of "economic fairness". Everything has to be "fair". No, we sure wouldn't want an outrageous idea like fairness spreading around. You must not have noticed, but we do already have "a President who agrees with the idea of sharing the wealth". Only his policies have 95% of the population sharing what little wealth they have to benefit the wealthiest 5% of the population. Not to worry though, it's all going to come "trickling down" any day now. Of course! Way to go! Strike back at me with an extrapolation of Bush's policies! But wait...I am a Bush supporter, right? You already have me stereotyped as a right wing conservative so OBVIOUSLY I must be a Bush supporter! OBVIOUSLY I must like his policies, what he has done in the White House, and all his decisions! I'm a mindless Rush Limbaugh lemming! Can't argue my viewpoints so you divert the subject to slamming the current Republican that, under your stereotype, I OBVIOUSLY support. I love fairness! I love it so much I think we transfer scholarship and grants for minorities to needed based money for all races so we can get rid of liberal racism and discrimination. I love it so much I am pro-gay marriage. I love it so much that I want a system that is truly color and sex blind where the only thing that sets us apart is class, capitalist value, and money. How can I support social fairness, but support economic unfairness? Because when it comes to the question of fiscal matters, possessions, and monetary value, the world is and always will be inherently unfair. The only system that works is one that recognizes that unfairness and provides incentives for personal responsibility and personal achievement in changing one's financial position instead of constantly demonizing those who acquire it! "Go to school! Get a good job! Work hard! So that when you accomplish something, we can demonize you as the problem of society and take it away!" Sounds like a great bumper sticker, huh? I'll make you one for your car. Let's just hope you don't have to turn right.

slvemike4u -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 9:15:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u And yet of the 41 states that have an income tax 35 use a graduated (re:progressive)tax plan.The federal income tax has been a graduated(re:progressive)since 1913....and still the rich manage to get rich and do well..is there a possibility this happens to work....or has it been unfair to all those entrepanuers and millionaires all these years.BTW you do realise the rich hire very competant tax lawyers to reduce their burden has much as possible...and they are quite good at it.....Somehow Elisabella we have muddled along with a Graduated tax plan for almost one hundred years....it seems to be working. Personally I don't see our (or rather, the US's, as I guess in a few months I'll be officially considered an expat) current economy as 'working.' I think our economy needs a lot of changes, and a flat tax would only be one of them. I think it would be better for our economy to tax high levels of savings rather than high levels of income - that would ensure that the money continues to fluctuate in the economy. A person making $2B a year isn't a problem in itself - it's when he saves $1.5B and removes it from the economy that things get muddy. I do have a question for you - if you think our current system is working so well, why are you voting for someone who bases his platform on 'change'? Well good luck with all that....one last point you do realise both Candidates tax plan's are progressive in nature,the only difference being one guy wants to give more tax breaks to the richest amongst us,including the biggest Corp.,and the other thinks the little guy could use a break.....just saying. Sorry I had forgotten to answer your question .I am voting for Obama's platform of change for a very simple reason....I don't like the way the Republican's administer our current system,I believe the country has been taken too far to the right...and at heart I am a centrist,so we need to move to the left o get back to center...it is that simple ,in my mind at least.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 9:23:45 PM)
The words you used before included the word "fair" but I see you're changing your tune. And you have yet to answer me mike. How is Obama supposedly going to make the tax system "more fair"? quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Well good luck with all that....one last point you do realise both Candidates tax plan's are progressive in nature,the only difference being one guy wants to give more tax breaks to the richest amongst us,including the biggest Corp.,and the other thinks the little guy could use a break.....just saying.

Elisabella -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 9:35:12 PM)
The richest among us pay 35% of their income in taxes.y The poorest among us pay 10% (though it seems like they get it all refunded? At least I always did. I'm not sure how that works.) So yes I would think it's better that the person paying a disproportionately HIGH percentage should get a break instead of the person paying a disproportionately LOW percentage. And what is all this nonsense about "the little guy could use a break"?? Do you know how awful and divisive that sounds? It's classic socialist rhetoric - the people who earn a lot of money are bad, and greedy, and "fat cats" while the people who earn very little money are "the little guy, the good guy, the average guy" - the poor helpless waif who needs the Socialist Robin Hood to save him from the awfulness of his predicament. We're all Americans. Why do we think it's okay to raise taxes on one group of citizens yet lower them on another group of citizens? How is that equal? It's not like the people who pay higher taxes get more of a say in how the taxes are spent. If people want to be charitable, they can give money to charity. In fact, in the past few decades many people are more hesitant to give to charity because they felt they already 'gave at the office' - and they're right. I can see where you're coming from. I'm a "little guy" too - I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't be really fucking awesome to have my health care, my university bills, my daycare expenses if I have kids, etc. paid for by the government. That would be seriously nice. If I had less of a conscience I'd vote for Obama and not only ask what my country can do for me, but then demand more on top of it. And why shouldn't "those rich guys" pay for it? They aren't worried about their bills. They aren't poor. They've already laid a secure foundation for their future - surely taking a bit off the top won't hurt that foundation? In fact, come to think of it, I don't have a car. Those rich people down the block have four cars and only 3 of them are able to drive. Taking one of their cars won't hurt them a bit. I deserve it, after all, I don't HAVE a car. And they have more cars than they NEED. What's next? Taking their summer home because they OWN it and I pay RENT on my apartment? I don't think I have the right to do that. I think that's stealing, and I think it's wrong. Even though I'm just the little guy, the poor suffering working class peon who has to take the train to get somewhere and has to postpone dental surgery until I have the money. Woe is me, but it's neither that rich family down the street's fault nor is it their responsibility. That's what my conscience tells me. The only difference between Obama socialism and a bank robber is that the bank robber admits he's taking what isn't his to take.

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875