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Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 5:05:32 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
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Freud thought aggression was instinctual, that turns out to be wrong. But there is a possibilty that the behavior itself is a remaining vestige of evolution, a part of the survival instinct. I am not talking about aggression as a hostile act, but rather as a reactive behavior to  a world that is often hostile. Some of us are passive, some of us go with the flow. and some of us rail against....... well we just rail against :)

For me, much of the energy of a BDSM dynamic comes from the varying levels of aggression on the part of the dominant and the reactive aggression or passivity of the submissive, and  this energy constantly flows from dominant to submissive and back. So for me BDSM IS about control, it's just not about control of the submissive. but rather control of oneself. And I believe that this self control is part of the dynamic for both the dominant and the submissive for sure.


An example:

If I lift you by the hair from the chair you are sitting on and shove your face into the wall, pull your cloths down and penetrate you, that is an act of aggression. And how you react, ie do you struggle, do you fight, are you responsive or are you passive, all effect the energy between us.

My dominance, the power that allows me to do this, only exists due to your consent, so whether or not it is inate or learned is really of no importance, it exists because the power exchange allows it to exist.   And if you grant me authority over you it is true that I am dominant. but it only becomes a reality when I take what I want on my terms.

But the ability to accept and control ones aggression is not contractual, it is not an exchange of any kind,  but it may in fact be what separates an abuser from a dominant.
 





A question for dominants and submissives alike:


Do you feel that aggression and passivity are a part of your BDSM dynamic?

If so,in what way(s), and if not, why?



_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin
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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 5:10:01 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Dominance:  The ability and desire to enforce your will on others.  It is a fundamentally aggressive thing.

Aggression, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.  How it is channeled and used defines the outcome.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 5:12:43 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am typically only aggressive when someone is attacking me or is a threat of some kind.

In my relationships, there are things one could see as aggressive, but my submissive doesn't see it as aggressive because everything is far different.  I am not responding to threat... I am not defending anything or anyone... I am pulling his hair because he likes it and I like that he likes it and it turns us on somehow. 

It is like the words dominant and submissive.  The meanings can change within the context of the relationship where dominance or submission is taking place.  Some can use either in a wrong way.  I see aggression the same way.

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 5:15:18 PM   
natasha66


Posts: 321
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: NJ
Status: offline 		He is not overtly aggressive, nor am i, as His sub, passive.   When He collared me, it was understood that this was to be safe, sane, and consentual.  Agressive vs passive aren't words i would personally use to describe our relationship. 

_____________________________

"If you bother me again I shall visit you in the small hours of the night and put a bat up your nightdress".
~Basil Fawlty

Collared June 4th, 2008
Love is giving him the power to destroy you, but trusting him not to.



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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 7:44:00 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Do you feel that aggression and passivity are a part of your BDSM dynamic?

No
quote:

  If so,in what way(s), and if not, why?


Because my own personality does not allow me to be passive in any way.

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 8:08:00 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

If I lift you by the hair from the chair you are sitting on and shove your face into the wall, pull your cloths down and penetrate you, that is an act of aggression.

 
That's a matter of perspective.  Surely a vanilla who sees that would consider the act aggressive.  But between the two participants, it may be considered an act of love and devotion.
 
quote:
And how you react, ie do you struggle, do you fight, are you responsive or are you passive, all effect the energy between us.

 
How anyone reacts to anyone else effects the energy between them. 

quote:


My dominance, the power that allows me to do this, only exists due to your consent, so whether or not it is inate or learned is really of no importance, it exists because the power exchange allows it to exist.   And if you grant me authority over you it is true that I am dominant. but it only becomes a reality when I take what I want on my terms.


I would suggest that Dominance becomes a reality at the moment of consent.  By virtue of consent, you are taking what you want on her terms (though they may be your terms as well).

quote:
But the ability to accept and control ones aggression is not contractual, it is not an exchange of any kind,  but it may in fact be what separates an abuser from a dominant.


Aggression in the manner you described is indeed an implied contract between submissive/slave and Dominant.  A contract that exists by virtue of mutual consent.  And I believe that consent is the delineation between abuser and Dominant (the absence of consent being the foundation for most definitions of abuse.

quote:


Do you feel that aggression and passivity are a part of your BDSM dynamic?


Yes, but not in the manner you described. 

quote:


If so,in what way(s), and if not, why?


At various times aggression can be expressed as the exercise of my authority to dominate, and passivity as her consent.  But in my own relationships, that form of expression is relatively rare.  It's far more common that I simply dominate.  It's neither aggressive nor passive.  It just is.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 10:41:28 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		Freud happened on a cool concept in his idea of sublimation.  Work, art, fantasy...they're all ways of sublimating agression.  D/s can, at times, be a sublimation of more primitive, agressive urges.  Rituals, protocols, and the system of symbols that revolves around D/s in practice can be considered things that encourage sublimation.  Unsublimated agression doesn't work for me. 

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/16/2008 10:56:56 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		The OP was an example of physical aggression that involves kinky sex.   There are the aspects of mental aggression, verbal aggression, hell even the threat of some form aggression work wonders too.

I love what leadership527 had to share about "The ability and desire to enforce your will on others" as Dominance.  I tend to view this as being spot on. 

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 1:07:09 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I've been talking about this with a couple of friends recently.

For me, the aggression is not the defining facet of the interaction that moves me...it's the the surrender. The yielding to my scruples on decisions I wish to make and actions I wish to take. that dominance, however, is preceded by the honor of eliciting the trust in the first place...and that honor is directly tied to my being able to understand myself, my partner and, more importantly, the compatibility therein...a compatibility that should rest on the Dom/me knowing the breaking point (physically, mentally, emotionally) of his/her sub.

No car (if cars could consent) would, I think, choose a driver who redlines the RPMs at will, consistently, over the course of 12,000 miles without an oil change (perhaps unless the car specifically understood that to be its want, along with the consequences...).


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 1:11:08 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Dominance:  The ability and desire to enforce your will on others.  It is a fundamentally aggressive thing.

I do like this...although I think it may leave me in a 'passive aggressive' category of dominance because I don't necessarily measure the power exchange by how much of my will I'm able to enforce but moreso by how much my sub openly yields to my pressure.

Or perhaps it's only a difference in some figurative way that makes sense in my head right now, but which I'm unable to properly articulate as I'm getting ready to konk out...


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 1:21:44 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I do like this...although I think it may leave me in a 'passive aggressive' category of dominance because I don't necessarily measure the power exchange by how much of my will I'm able to enforce but moreso by how much my sub openly yields to my pressure.


Extracting compliance is itself a form of dominance. I assume you don't explicitly seek out people who would submit to anyone, but instead seek out people that specifically want to submit to you. In which case, whatever delta you provide - i.e., whatever difference there is between you and people that the sub won't submit to - is the measure of your power over that sub. If that makes sense?

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 5:23:31 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
leadership
"Dominance:  The ability and desire to enforce your will on others.  It is a fundamentally aggressive thing"

Actually I don't agree with that definition. I don't think it is an ability or a desire, I would define it as a state of being, a position of power or behavioral trait. Ability and desire may lead to dominance but I don't see how they define it.



Rover
"Aggression in the manner you described is indeed an implied contract between submissive/slave and Dominant.  A contract that exists by virtue of mutual consent.  And I believe that consent is the delineation between abuser and Dominant (the absence of consent being the foundation for most definitions of abuse."

No question about that, I also think there are layers within layers and even consent does not disallow abuse, it allows for behavior within limits. If  aggression is a primeval emotion , and I am not saying that it is, and even if it is not, than there is still need for control on the part of the dominant, and still the possibility for abuse.

< Message edited by SlyStone -- 10/17/2008 5:33:15 AM >

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 6:09:27 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Dominance:  The ability and desire to enforce your will on others.  It is a fundamentally aggressive thing.


I do like this...although I think it may leave me in a 'passive aggressive' category of dominance because I don't necessarily measure the power exchange by how much of my will I'm able to enforce but moreso by how much my sub openly yields to my pressure.


Brilliant!!!!  One does not usually think of passive aggressive manipulation as "dominant" in a BDSM sense. 
 
Substance matters.... if a Dominant does not utilize the authority to *be* dominant in a relationship, then they are not fulfilling their role as Dominant.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 6:12:10 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Extracting compliance is itself a form of dominance.


I would think that this is proof of coercion and manipulation (which is part of all power exchange relationships, but only part) and nothing more.  How you extract that compliance is proof of Dominance (or not).
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 6:15:44 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


If  aggression is a primeval emotion , and I am not saying that it is, and even if it is not, than there is still need for control on the part of the dominant, and still the possibility for abuse.


Following that logic, if aggression is primeval then it is inherent to all humans, not just Dominants.  And in that respect, I agree... we must all control our urges.  But that logic dictates that it says nothing particular to, or about, Dominants.
 
John
 
P.S. - Great topic.

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 6:22:18 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Dominance:  The ability and desire to enforce your will on others.  It is a fundamentally aggressive thing.

I do like this...although I think it may leave me in a 'passive aggressive' category of dominance because I don't necessarily measure the power exchange by how much of my will I'm able to enforce but moreso by how much my sub openly yields to my pressure.

Or perhaps it's only a difference in some figurative way that makes sense in my head right now, but which I'm unable to properly articulate as I'm getting ready to konk out...


*laughs*  We'll go with the "it's late" option.  Honestly, I wasn't discussing how to measure the extent of the power exchange.  I tend to agree with you on that one.  It is her yielding ot minimal pressure on my part that turns my clock.  I like seeing her bend of her own free will.  All I was suggesting is that dominance IS aggression at it's very core.  Not that it carries the implication of aggression behind it.  Even me saying to my wife in a light and pleasant tone, "Will you go fetch me a glass of water on your way to the kitchen?" is an aggressive act on my part since it carries with it the expectation of obedience.  Specifically, I do not mean that it is aggressive because it carries with it the threat of physical violence if there is disobedience.  I mean the very command itself is an act of aggression... a transgression against her borders of "self".  The only thing that makes it OK is that she welcomes that particular bit of aggression.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 6:41:57 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		In your hair pulling, face to the wall scenario - it would depend upon your mood and the mood of the sub.  While it might work great one day it might blow up in your face the next.

Are either of you angry to begin with?  Add anger to aggression, and even though you may still "feel" under control you may not be.  Drugs or alcohol mixed with aggression can also change the mix.  Even if you are under perfect control, just looking for some fun, what kind of day has the sub had?  Has she been pushed around at work all day, had health problems, come through a bad traffic jam that made her late?  Her own aggressive buttons may have been pushed and make her feel like she needs to go into a fight or flight scenario.

The only time I ever asked my Master to go a bit easy on me during a session was immediately after I returned from the hospital where I had been visiting a patient with a mental condition.  She attacked a nurse, and I had to pull her off.  Then she attacked me and the scuffle lasted for at least 10 minutes before I could get someone to subdue her.  My fear with my Master is that because I had already been attacked that if he was rough with me that I would either attack back or simply dissolve into tears.   I was literally scared of how I would react to any aggression.

While most of what you say about aggression is very valid, the human side needs to be looked at - and that can be very different depending upon the circumstances.   We need to be careful that when we lay general guidelines that we leave room for extenuating circumstances.


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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 7:08:01 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		Actually I don't care what Freud said about agression...it is about how I see/feel it  ;)
and I hate agression..lol

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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 8:08:59 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

The ability and desire to enforce your will on others.  It is a fundamentally aggressive thing.


When a kindergarden tells a child to sit still, and the child listen, is it agression?  When a parent grounds a teen ageer, is that agression?  When a cop pulls someone over for speeding, is that agressive?  When the chairman of the federal caughs up a goober and the dow jones crashes, is that aggressive?  They're all examples of dominance. 

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: Acts Of Agression - 10/17/2008 8:41:04 AM   
Subductrssss


Posts: 97
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline 		To me it depends on the circumstances.

Inherent in human nature is the flight or fight instinct, mine is triggered to fight "IF" to "me" the situation warrants it, in a BDSM situation I am never passive as I go too deep to the primal level to be passive but the fight instinct is more inline of reaction to the sensuality, the lust, the flow between U/us, the dance if you will.  I have at times been so deep with someone I have said I never need a safe word, I found this was not true when my "fight" instinct was triggered by my Mentor when I asked Him to help me get over a fear I had and I was not ready.  He had prepared ahead of time and asked me my safe word.  I said with Him I needed none, He sternly told me that was never the case with  my personality and then we proceeded to "dance" about an hour into it He hit my "fight" instinct, and He ended up with a bloody nose and my with hands held behind my back and my face down in the pillow while He whispered in my ear to SAY YOUR SAFE WORD! That brought me to reality I said it, He released me, helped me clean myself up and held me while I cried and said I was just not ready to get past that particular fear.  He was right.  I have since done so but I will always remember His advice and that night, not with fear but with respect and admiration for Him.

_____________________________

Subductrssss

The reality of the other person lies not in what he reveals to you but in what he cannot reveal to you. Therefore, if you would understand him, listen not to what he says but rather to what he does not say.
Kahlil Gibran

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