assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill

assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

LadyEllen -> assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 4:34:10 AM)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/7675745.stm Dan James travelled to Switzerland from the UK to die at the Dignitas clinic, where assisted suicide is provided, legally. There is nothing new about Brits going there to die; whats new is that Dan wasnt terminally ill but at age 23 he could have expected many more decades of life ahead. Dan had tried suicide before, having found it impossible to live with the diminished life he had following a rugby accident in which his spine was broken, leaving him paralysed. From being an able bodied young man, tipped for a professional sporting career and with everything going for him in terms of education and background, it must indeed have been devastating to have been in that position. Personally, I dont see it as the business of any state to interfere with someone's considered and avowed intent to kill themself if their personal quality of life is so poor and their prospects equally poor - unless the state owns us as property, we belong to ourselves and have exclusive power over ourselves. Yet this instance raises questions - Dan's accident was only 18 months ago, which isnt a great deal of time following such a devastating change to one's life to adjust. Depression and despair, frustration and anger should be expected from such a change - and it may have been that Dan might have adjusted if he'd lived, and though he'd never live the life he thought he would, he might have lived a life acceptable, even fulfilling to him. Comments? RIP Dan E

myotherself -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 4:55:42 AM)
rarely does a news story move me to tears...we become so hardened to stories of misery. This one touched me deeply, and I agree with you LadyEllen that the young man involved should have taken some more time to see if he could make the adjustment. I recently met a man in his late 20s who had suffered catastrophic injuries in a motorcycle smash and was paralysed from the chest down. He had been a soldier, a marathon runner and engaged to be married. His life fell apart - his fiancee couldn't cope with the change in him and they split up. He said he wanted to die. Now, four years on, he has a new fiancee, a new career touring schools to talk about managing risks and staying safe, and he's happy. It's not the future he thought he would have at 20, but as he nears 30 he is happy with what he has. I just think about the young man in the news story and feel such deep sadness that he didn't give himself the chance to find this new happiness. My thoughts are with his friends and family at this dreadful time.

JustDarkness -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:10:32 AM)
Mmmm I think we already have that years here in Holland. There are rules for it...but in general a docter will help you....if he can handle the situation.

Nikolette -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:16:16 AM)
I'm definitely with you. I don't feel like its a government's job to refrain people from managing their own life. But as someone who's sibling committed suicide at a young age, one I'm 5 years older than now than the age he died at (I'm 24, he was 19 I was much younger though when he died), I certainly wish there was some way to regulate it to give younger people, or those who've recently experienced a life altering trauma some access to therapy and time's healing touch. Having worked through my own suicidal thoughts in the past, I really value now being older and wiser- and alive. I wonder if a waiting period were required to heal after such a traumatic event if he would not think similarly in a few years. But unfortunately that's the real truth of suicide: there's never any going back. I hope his loved ones are able to reconcile their own potential feelings of being left behind as well, and as one of those left behind my heart really goes out to them. Its a difficult loss to deal with.

JustDarkness -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:23:15 AM)
quote: I don't feel like its a government's job to refrain people from managing their own life. mmm and if some one looses his job...we want money from the goverment... but when taking his/her life (for what ever reason) a goverment...can't judge...or worry...or advise I know..different issues...but still. A goverment or any leadership...can\t be just avaible when we want it. (in this case for a select small group)

LadyEllen -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:24:10 AM)
Thanks for the responses so far everyone; glad to hear you climbed back out of the pit Nikolette - been there and done that myself too! This was something I thought about too, from the TV commentary on it - a Dr from a care organisation said that assisted suicide was always wrong, because the people who choose it are depressed and therefore not capable of making a balanced judgement. But it occurred to me this was a "Catch22" - if you express a wish to die, you must be depressed so we'll prevent you" - but of course, if one expressed such a wish and following extensive testing one was found to not be depressed at all - they'd still prevent you, because you'd "obviously" be insane. In the end, does it come down to psychological competence, what we might or might not be permitted to do? And isnt that a total dead end argument? (sorry) E

pahunkboy -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:34:20 AM)
I am afraid I am with the right on this one. The grid should neither participate in it, or help it. It is a slippery slope. When does it become a duty to die? believe me- there are folks who dont value others. I do support medical directives. I also HATE that DRs are stingy with pain pills.

Raechard -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:36:00 AM)
It's no one else’s right to say someone must live their life as they are. It needs to be carefully regulated to ensure unscrupulous family members aren’t projecting their wishes on the person in question for their own motives but beyond that I'm all for it.

LadyEllen -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:43:00 AM)
This is a good point Raechard - as I understand it, the Swiss law says that it is illegal to commission or conspire in suicide for personal benefit, and its not that the Swiss law says assisted suicide is illegal as such but that the clinic takes the law as is to mean that assisted suicide is OK as long as no one derives personal benefit from it. But I may be wrong on that. Also a good point Rog - the idea that terminally ill patients in severe and ongoing pain shouldnt be given more than the "maximum dose" of painkillers. We know from experience that these maximum doses are no such thing - apart from a few instances (paracetamol for instance), no one is going to die from having a few more tablets than the maximum dose. And if someone is terminally ill, one must ask why it might be important anyway? If I'm dying from cancer, then to hell with the health of my liver! E

Nikolette -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:43:57 AM)
JustDarkness: Speak for yourself. I'm a registered Libertarian. That's not my view of how I ought to interact with the government even though I DO qualify for certain handouts and grants.

pahunkboy -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:44:24 AM)
But dont you think that people will be deleted for monetary reasons? You know in PA when a person dies the next of kin doesnt get the property. The state does. Only a legal will allow it. So if someone is too poor- delete them. what about those muslims? (insert any group) age 23 one has little clue on life. and the dude is not the fist to suffer pain issues. MANY of us do/did.

LadyEllen -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:49:48 AM)
It may be that the law as we have it is the best way Rog - in the UK, those who have travelled to Switzerland to get their friends/relatives to the clinic have all been questioned by police on their return to the UK. But few if any are ever charged with anything. Pushing a wheelchair is not the same thing as assisting suicide either - so its a difficult one to handle too for a prosecution. Maybe the best way is for the default position to be that assisted suicide situations are treated as potential crimes, but that it goes no further if no evidence can be found for any foul play? Still the worry remains for those taking this route that their friends/ relatives will be sent to prison, and that needs sorting - its not the sort of additional burden a seriously ill person needs? E

Nikolette -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:52:04 AM)
Lady Ellen, True, it does create a sensitive situation. There probably isn't a way to prevent some loop holes or inappropriate use of access to assisted suicide, but perhaps a few simple regulations could help even out the options as well as potential restrictions. Though at the end of the day, I say even the mentally ill should have a right to choose, even if medication may alter their state of mind to something that's more socially acceptable. I believe that because of the nature of perspective and feeling like I really can never know what someone's reality is like, so I don't feel like its my job to judge them or decide issues for them. So for me, its more about desiring legal safe access to assisted suicide, but perhaps requiring a waiting period after, I donno, applying? I'd be the first to say that's hardly an ideal solution and definitely not something everyone would probably agree with.

Raechard -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:53:12 AM)
That is the common argument used that life should be sacred which it is anyway. Suffering shouldn't be forced on someone through inaction though. The man in question could see no way forward and had attempted to kill himself on more than one occasion. Paralysed from the neck down only him and others in a similar position to him are able to comment on what his true quality of life is. People will not be put to death for being inconvenient if they are adamant they want to live and if it is possible for the quality of life they have to reach the same standards (in their own minds) that we all enjoy. We are not talking about people who are in the same position as us but a little depressed we are talking about people who are in a position we could never even begin to understand.

NuevaVida -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 5:56:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness quote: I don't feel like its a government's job to refrain people from managing their own life. mmm and if some one looses his job...we want money from the goverment... but when taking his/her life (for what ever reason) a goverment...can't judge...or worry...or advise I know..different issues...but still. A goverment or any leadership...can\t be just avaible when we want it. (in this case for a select small group) Totally apples to oranges. Unemployment benefits, overall, help the economy by preventing more homeless cases, etc. Whether or not assisted suicide is legal, doesn't affect the economy the way unemployment or disability benefits do. Personally I haven't formed a solid opinion on these kinds of assisted suicides but at the outset I'm uncomfortable with the idea. As for assisted suicides for the terminally ill, I'm a supporter of it. But I'm still not sure how this relates to unemployment benefits.

pahunkboy -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 6:16:41 AM)
The man is a pxxxx. Checking out at 23 is dumb. He shorted himself and he shorted his loved ones. I guess I prefer that state take no position, legal nor illegal. The state can not know best. I cringe at how the tyranny we fought we now are becoming. Note how globalization is only for the powerful? On that note- I hate that. The peon should be free to shop the globe for human needs. If I cant have full use of my body by 5pm, I shall plunge myself into the pitts of hell and my body will go to a firey death. So if I dont get my way that is the deal. ../snip/ life is full of disapointments. life doesnt owe anyone much- if anything. the family surely took the easy out too. how many are in wheel chairs? MANY. I better not stub my toe today... if I do I shall DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LadyEllen -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 6:24:42 AM)
Sorry Rog, but that opening line is something you should consider editing, along with parts of the last. Suicide, assisted or not, is not an easy way out; its actually something that requires a great deal of determination to go through with. And its not an easy thing for the family and friends left behind either. E

OneMoreWaste -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 6:30:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikolette I certainly wish there was some way to regulate it to give younger people, or those who've recently experienced a life altering trauma some access to therapy and time's healing touch. Having worked through my own suicidal thoughts in the past, I really value now being older and wiser- and alive. I wonder if a waiting period were required to heal after such a traumatic event if he would not think similarly in a few years. How long does it have to be, though? I can only imagine that 18 months can seem like an eternity in that situation. If he'd already made attempts to end his own life, I think it's safe to bet that those attempts would continue during the "cooling-off period"; sooner or later he'd either be successful, or do so much damage to himself that he would no longer be able to seek a medically-assisted suicide (for example, brain damage due to a failed self-asphyxiation attempt). PA- at least as these laws stand, there isn't really a "slippery slope"- the State is not actually involved, the organizations performing them are private, and it is the indivdual's choice, not the family's. I do think that the laws against assisted suicide (and even laws against suicide which exist in some places) are an attempt by the State to exercise control that they have no right to claim... but then, that puts it on a pretty long list...

kittinSol -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 6:58:08 AM)
Having lived in Switzerland five years I can confirm that Swiss health is unbelievably advanced and luxurious. But I wonder: how much does the clinic charge the insurance companies?

pahunkboy -> RE: assisted suicide - no longer just for the terminally ill (10/18/2008 7:10:35 AM)
One, I think deciding - that the state, it is NOT the state to decide life or death. The state needs to stay out of it. Lady E., I meant no offense to the woman. I am sorry if it sounded that way. In general I try not to minimize anyones pain. On the aging process, and anyone with injuries, and people with depression, combined with consumer, TV, shallow culture in that our tribal urges are reduced to a shopping center, the world is not as we are taught it is in schools. It just isnt. There will be many things that are not pleasant, not fair, and not pleasurable in any manner. I dont think criminal charges are in order. It sounds like the saftey net system failed. The problem with death, is that loved ones remain. It is also too abstract to understand- the dimension. Timely topic. Jennies daughter (21 yrs) just 302d her friend for threats of suicide. Her daughter is afraid the friend will now hate her. I guess death and suicide touches a nerve with me. In a perfect world people would not suffer. I am sorry if I sounded un-caring.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875