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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:25:42 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Given that Powell is a retired career military man, and given that I live with a retired career military man, I fully understand why Powell did what he did. Like many of our  military personel, Powell got shit on by GW.
I couldn't agree more,shit on doesn't even cover it.Owner his rehabilitation started and in my eyes was accomplished the day he resigned from Bushies Cabinet.....Now as to his endorsement and appearence on Meet The Press...What an American,not only did he give and explain his endorsement in a thoughtful and thought-provoking manner...He took the his own party ,the Republican Party,to task for both their dogma and their tactics, not just in the race ,but the general  direction the party is being pulled.Namely too far right.Again I will say, What an American..How Different would our position in the world be had not his wife extracted a promise from him not to try and gain the White House(she feared for his life is what I had read)
As a complete aside....I am left wondering ,are there enough lifeboats,by Nov 4th...the only ones left on the bridge of the U.S.S John McCain...will be McCain ,Cindy,Sarah and Todd...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:32:00 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

What an American,not only did he give and explain his endorsement in a thoughtful and thought-provoking manner...He took the his own party ,the Republican Party,to task for both their dogma and their tactics, not just in the race ,but the general  direction the party is being pulled.Namely too far right.Again I will say, What an American..


Unfortunately I saw him on Meet The Press passing the buck for his presentation to the UN. He blamed the intelligence community instead of the Cherry Pickers... and he well knows the evidence was cherry picked at this point. My esteem for him fell further

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:46:08 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Most of the folks I know truly believe that Colin Powell was giving a raw deal and used as a scapegoat for Iraq. I have a great deal of respect for him and would have enjoyed seeing him run for office.


He wasn't scapegoated.  He was used, and he obviously let himself be used, whatever his motivation for that was.

He knew he was presenting dubious information about Iraq and the presence of WMD's.  Whether that was out of a misguided sense of loyalty, or whatever reason, I lost a lot of respect for the man.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:46:11 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

What an American,not only did he give and explain his endorsement in a thoughtful and thought-provoking manner...He took the his own party ,the Republican Party,to task for both their dogma and their tactics, not just in the race ,but the general  direction the party is being pulled.Namely too far right.Again I will say, What an American..


Unfortunately I saw him on Meet The Press passing the buck for his presentation to the UN. He blamed the intelligence community instead of the Cherry Pickers... and he well knows the evidence was cherry picked at this point. My esteem for him fell further
Julia,I think he went as far as he could go with that,he is and allways will be a military man constrained when looking back and assigning blame by the very things that ensured his success as a military man.Respect for the chain of command a distaste for passing the buck and divesting one's self of responsibility.IMO he spoke volumes when he resigned and is still hesitant from taking shots at Bush from the safety of the sidelines....For better or worse,I think this comes down to his own personal code of conduct,and at a time in American life when too many don't seem to adhere to any code at all...I can't get too bent out of shape over his hesitancy.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:50:59 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually, he was assured by the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld machine that they had the evidence.


I don't know about you, but before I put my reputation on the line I would have done more than just accept their assurances. 

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:54:08 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

He wasn't scapegoated.  He was used, and he obviously let himself be used, whatever his motivation for that was.

He knew he was presenting dubious information about Iraq and the presence of WMD's.  Whether that was out of a misguided sense of loyalty, or whatever reason, I lost a lot of respect for the man.


He's no Sir Thomas Moore, that's for sure. I fully understand the opinion that you and Julia hold and I respect your right to hold it. I just have a different opinion.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:57:53 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually, he was assured by the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld machine that they had the evidence.


I don't know about you, but before I put my reputation on the line I would have done more than just accept their assurances. 
See this too I can agree with,but that is part of the problem when he is asked to look back and critique...he knows he played his role,and he will not now from the perspective of hindsight get involved in pointing fingers and assigning the blame.He knows he owns his own piesce of that pie.He bought the shit hook line and sinker,that said,so did alot of people both in public and private lives....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 8:58:20 AM   
lronitulstahp


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Joined: 10/17/2007
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quote:

All those young men and women have bled and died, and yes I hold Colin Powell partially responsible for that. Sadly so.

 

 i have felt the same sort of disappointment concerning Powell and the UN address.  He convinced them where Bush and Rice couldn't. He was considered credible and reliable, and the War Machine banked on his reputation to fool the world.

If he was misled, i blame him for not being more certain before assisting in starting a war.  If he lied outright, i would have to think he is living in his own personal hell.  i do believe people can make mistakes amd change and become better and stronger because of them, but that's a rarity.  And confession usually has to take place before redemption. 

In my opinion, the toll of his mistake is too high for me to lend much credibility to him as a leader or advisor in another administration.  He'd have to come clean about alot of things first.  i'd love to see him address The Hague as eloquently as he did the UN all those years ago...this time, with the truth...that'd be a nice start.

< Message edited by lronitulstahp -- 10/19/2008 8:59:15 AM >

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:04:12 AM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

or better or worse,I think this comes down to his own personal code of conduct,and at a time in American life when too many don't seem to adhere to any code at all...I can't get too bent out of shape over his hesitancy.


People have died, some are still dying, and many come back completely damaged. I take the bus to school. My bus line goes past the VA hospital. I have seen the human wreckage first hand in their daily challenges of going about their lives. They have people who take them on the bus to and from the VA hospital. I have spoken with some of these representatives about the lack of resources available to our vets. It is heart breaking. I cannot fathom a code of conduct that prevents a person from doing what is right for his country, for his people, and some of those people are the very same ones he was responsible for in his career. His first loyalty should be for them, not for some dipshit that led our country into an unnecessary war for profit. It is beyond the scope of my inner ethical compass to understand it. I cannot forgive it because he has never backed off from what he helped perpetrate on the American People, a war that has bankrupted us not only economically, but morally too. It has destroyed us. An endorsement of Obama at this late date, sorry, considering his track record of deceit, I do not believe he isn't looking for a position in the Obama admin. I think he endorsed the winning horse... otherwise, why do it now?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:04:43 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		If the only food you are given to eat day after day from the time you can eat food is a vegetable then you believe that vegetables are the only food. Powell was given ONLY what information Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld wanted him to have to allow him to be convincing when he spoke. He never saw the information that WMD's were not found by our investigators. He was fed vegetables and vegetables were recognized as food. He never saw the steak.

I have admired Colin Powell for a long time, he has always stood for integrity (that I have seen others may have seen something else) and he was both hurt and angered over what Bush did to get him to speak to the UN and push Bush's Agenda. My opinion of him has not changed, and I admire what he has said here as well. It was well thought out.

poenkitten



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:10:46 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually, he was assured by the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld machine that they had the evidence.


I don't know about you, but before I put my reputation on the line I would have done more than just accept their assurances. 
See this too I can agree with,but that is part of the problem when he is asked to look back and critique...he knows he played his role,and he will not now from the perspective of hindsight get involved in pointing fingers and assigning the blame.He knows he owns his own piesce of that pie.He bought the shit hook line and sinker,that said,so did alot of people both in public and private lives....


You are both wrong.

Powell is a soldier. A general, yes, but one who was working for the Commander in Chief.

LOTS of retired generals have writing harsh critics of the Bush administration. Clearly Powell was marginalized by the Cheney/Rumsfeld faction, and clearly he was displeased (after all, HIS doctrine would have prevented this mess, as it did in the first Gulf War), but not one peep of criticism. He's a good soldier.

I certainly would not have made the same decisions. But then I'm not the staunch soldier (and ardent Conservative) Powell is.

I agree with BlackPhx. Powell did what he needed to do, based on assurances from his President (generals don't tell the President he's lying anyway), and has acted honorable ever since.

He was set up---yet another slimy record of this administration. They should have listened to Powell---he would have made a difference.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/19/2008 9:14:35 AM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:13:32 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I just wonder if Powell's endorsement of Obama is payback for McCain not offering him the VP?...Just thought I would play devils advocate..lol

It was such a relief when McCain picked Palin rather then Powell...With Powell I think McCain could have given Obama a good run for his money..now we see his folly and bad judgment.

Butch

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:13:34 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

If the only food you are given to eat day after day from the time you can eat food is a vegetable then you believe that vegetables are the only food. Powell was given ONLY what information Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld wanted him to have to allow him to be convincing when he spoke. He never saw the information that WMD's were not found by our investigators. He was fed vegetables and vegetables were recognized as food. He never saw the steak.


I watched his presentation and the counter-arguments against his position at the UN, did you? If you had you would see that he had plenty of other information than what they gave him, after all it was presented at the UN, and it convinced many of our allies that this was a bad choice and an unjustified war. I did not believe Powell's presentation. I thought the "mobile weapons units" were laughable. I thought the photos of what appeared to be small Sessna and announcing this as the "Iraqi Airforce" seemed to belong on some Saturday Night Live skit, but unfortunately there was nothing to laugh about because it was reality. I remember distinctly the lead up to war, marched against it, informed myself about it, and there were plenty of educated and informed people who came out and said that Iraq had no WMD... many of these voices were his neighbors, former weapons inspectors, and the weapons inspectors already there. To say he had no other information is just untrue.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:16:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I just wonder if Powell's endorsement of Obama is payback for McCain not offering him the VP?...Just thought I would play devils advocate..lol

It was such a relief when McCain picked Palin rather then Powell...With Powell I think McCain could have given Obama a good run for his money..now we see his folly and bad judgment.

Butch


Powell has been asked to run for President---and declined.

Besides that Powell's character is not petty, your speculation doesn't hold up under its own premise.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/19/2008 9:17:10 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:22:06 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Just imagine with Powell on McCains ticket what would have happened to Obama's African American vote...And it would have strengthened the cornbelt  and military support....Obama DODGED a bullet with McCains ridiculous pick.

Butch

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:23:21 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually, he was assured by the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld machine that they had the evidence.


I don't know about you, but before I put my reputation on the line I would have done more than just accept their assurances. 
See this too I can agree with,but that is part of the problem when he is asked to look back and critique...he knows he played his role,and he will not now from the perspective of hindsight get involved in pointing fingers and assigning the blame.He knows he owns his own piesce of that pie.He bought the shit hook line and sinker,that said,so did alot of people both in public and private lives....


You are both wrong.

Powell is a soldier. A general, yes, but one who was working for the Commander in Chief.

LOTS of retired generals have writing harsh critics of the Bush administration. Clearly Powell was marginalized by the Cheney/Rumsfeld faction, and clearly he was displeased (after all, HIS doctrine would have prevented this mess, as it did in the first Gulf War), but not one peep of criticism. He's a good soldier.

I certainly would not have made the same decisions. But then I'm not the staunch soldier (and ardent Conservative) Powell is.

I agree with BlackPhx. Powell did what he needed to do, based on assurances from his President (generals don't tell the President he's lying anyway), and has acted honorable ever since.

He was set up---yet another slimy record of this administration. They should have listened to Powell---he would have made a difference.


But he did eventually leave.Quietly and respectfully,but he left.

Then we got Condi "bin-laden who?" Rice to take over at state.

On 2nd thought,it would have been braver to hold his position and not leave till relieved(by Obama).

The world hasn`t faired well w/ Rice heading the State Dept. 

There`s a lot of damage to repair.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:24:58 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

But he did eventually leave.Quietly and respectfully,but he left.

Then we got Condi "bin-laden who?" Rice to take over at state.

On 2nd thought,it would have been braver to hold his position and not leave till relieved(by Obama).

The world hasn`t faired well w/ Rice heading the State Dept. 

There`s a lot of damage to repair.


I am no Rice fan, but the majority of the damage happened with Powell in her position. It is unfair to blame her for his mistakes...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:25:09 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I just wonder if Powell's endorsement of Obama is payback for McCain not offering him the VP?...Just thought I would play devils advocate..lol

It was such a relief when McCain picked Palin rather then Powell...With Powell I think McCain could have given Obama a good run for his money..now we see his folly and bad judgment.

Butch


Powell has been asked to run for President---and declined.

Besides that Powell's character is not petty, your speculation doesn't hold up under its own premise.


What you think of Powell’s character does not match the rest of America...truth makes no difference it’s perception that counts.

I don't know if he was asked to be McCains VP...do you?

Butch

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:34:17 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

All those young men and women have bled and died, and yes I hold Colin Powell partially responsible for that. Sadly so.

 

 i have felt the same sort of disappointment concerning Powell and the UN address.  He convinced them where Bush and Rice couldn't. He was considered credible and reliable, and the War Machine banked on his reputation to fool the world.

If he was misled, i blame him for not being more certain before assisting in starting a war.  If he lied outright, i would have to think he is living in his own personal hell.  i do believe people can make mistakes amd change and become better and stronger because of them, but that's a rarity.  And confession usually has to take place before redemption. 

In my opinion, the toll of his mistake is too high for me to lend much credibility to him as a leader or advisor in another administration.  He'd have to come clean about alot of things first.  i'd love to see him address The Hague as eloquently as he did the UN all those years ago...this time, with the truth...that'd be a nice start.


You beat me to the post.  This is exactly what I was going to say.

I think that quite a few people who were skeptical of the administration's claims were swayed by Powell because of a belief that he would be objective and his opinion would be strictly based on facts and  his military judgement.

In that regard, he bears a lot more than partial responsibilty.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 9:57:49 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You are both wrong.

Powell is a soldier. A general, yes, but one who was working for the Commander in Chief.

LOTS of retired generals have writing harsh critics of the Bush administration. Clearly Powell was marginalized by the Cheney/Rumsfeld faction, and clearly he was displeased (after all, HIS doctrine would have prevented this mess, as it did in the first Gulf War), but not one peep of criticism. He's a good soldier.

I certainly would not have made the same decisions. But then I'm not the staunch soldier (and ardent Conservative) Powell is.

I agree with BlackPhx. Powell did what he needed to do, based on assurances from his President (generals don't tell the President he's lying anyway), and has acted honorable ever since.

He was set up---yet another slimy record of this administration. They should have listened to Powell---he would have made a difference.


Don't mistake what I am saying.  I still retain a certain respect for Powell, but I'm tired of hearing people dismiss or rationalize his actions.

Yes, he was a soldier.  Yes, a soldier's duty is to follow orders.  Therefore, he was only doing his duty to his country.

Which is almost word for word the defense  used at the Nuremburg trials.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 40
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