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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 10:00:58 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Yes, he was a soldier. Yes, a soldier's duty is to follow orders. Therefore, he was only doing his duty to his country.

Which is almost word for word the defense used at the Nuremburg trials.

The role of Sec of State is not that of a soldier, but of a diplomat. These are two totally different roles requiring a completely different headspace. If he was not up to the task he shouldn't have accepted the job. If he found himself in a position that went against who he was as a soldier, he should have resigned his cabinet position.

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 10:09:40 AM

bluepanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

All those young men and women have bled and died, and yes I hold Colin Powell partially responsible for that. Sadly so.

i have felt the same sort of disappointment concerning Powell and the UN address. He convinced them where Bush and Rice couldn't. He was considered credible and reliable, and the War Machine banked on his reputation to fool the world.

If he was misled, i blame him for not being more certain before assisting in starting a war. If he lied outright, i would have to think he is living in his own personal hell. i do believe people can make mistakes amd change and become better and stronger because of them, but that's a rarity. And confession usually has to take place before redemption.

In my opinion, the toll of his mistake is too high for me to lend much credibility to him as a leader or advisor in another administration. He'd have to come clean about alot of things first. i'd love to see him address The Hague as eloquently as he did the UN all those years ago...this time, with the truth...that'd be a nice start.

Best post in this thread - especially the point about the responsibility he had to make sure he was right. I watched that speech live on CNN, every minute of it, and I could see in his eyes there were times he could hardly get the words out of his mouth because they just tasted like bullshit to him. He admitted afterwards that he had enormous doubts that some of what he was saying was accurate, right up to the minute he walked out to the microphone, yet he went ahead with it anyway. He owns a huge share of the responsibility for this war, and in my opinion it would be almost impossible for him ever to live it down.

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Post #: 42

RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 12:03:13 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

I am no Rice fan, but the majority of the damage happened with Powell in her position. It is unfair to blame her for his mistakes...

Why? She was Bush's National Security advisor.

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 12:33:36 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I am no Rice fan, but the majority of the damage happened with Powell in her position. It is unfair to blame her for his mistakes...

Why? She was Bush's National Security advisor.

It seems you want to assign blame to Rice for the mistakes that Powell made in presenting the case for war at the UN. At least Rice is a true believer in what she is doing, which I am not sure you could make the same case for Powell. I also do not see anyone praising her on this thread... it really is not about her, now is it?

Edited to add....

If there is one thing I have been consistent about from day one here and on other forums on these here internets, it is that I was and still am staunchly against what we have done in Iraq. This position is extraordinarily unlikely to change no matter how many surges there are and no matter what happens in Iraq. It was wrong for us to invade a country that was no threat to us, and in my estimation, you need a smoking gun to invade a country and claim they are a threat... like that country attacking us. Preemptive warfare is really no different than when Hitler invaded Poland in my estimation.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/19/2008 12:50:12 PM >

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Post #: 44

RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 12:42:37 PM

Musicmystery

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you brought it up.

I asked for your reasons. Instead, you rushed to an accusation based on an incorrect and unsupported assumption.

Don't you think the National Security advisor would have said something beforehand about an error?

Don't you think the President's intelligence advisors would have said something before Powell went to the U.N.?

Are you under the impression that the Secretary of State has some independent secret intelligence operation?

Or does that come from the President?

And aren't cabinet members working for the President?

Somehow, you think Powell somehow on his own went to the U.N. over this nonsense, independently?

Well then, enjoy. Whatever.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/19/2008 12:48:27 PM >

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 1:02:11 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

you brought it up.

I was responding to Rice being brought up in a thread about Powell and taking blame for what happened during his tenure...

quote:

Don't you think the President's intelligence advisors would have said something before Powell went to the U.N.?

Are you under the impression that the Secretary of State has some independent secret intelligence operation

Hans Blix, Al Gore, countries surrounding Iraq, and Scott Ritter were just a few voices, expert voices, that came forward to say that Iraq was not a threat to the USA. It was laughable to say they were... geesh, they even tried to doctor evidence for yellow cake! If you are going to tell me that Powell, a brilliant man, could not use his rational faculties, to see with his own eyes that the intelligence was flawed... well I guess I gave him more credit than you have. It was very obvious in his own presentation that the case was a bunch of bullshit. If he had better evidence he surely did not present it..

quote:

And aren't cabinet members working for the President?

Somehow, you think Powell somehow on his own went to the U.N. over this nonsense, independently?

Well then, enjoy. Whatever.

I think he followed orders like a yes man and did not do his duty, which primarily is as the top diplomat for our country. He was not serving as a military man even though he acted like one. A sec of State works for the president, but not as a commander in chief, but to represent him among other countries diplomatically... I never argued that he was not working for Bush... you are painting my position to be one that I do not hold and I would recommend you stick to debating my actual position instead of creating one I do not have. (straw man bs does not work with me).

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Post #: 46

RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 1:19:35 PM

LadyEllen

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I am reminded of the case of the British security expert on Iraq who tried to tell the UK and the world that the "intelligence" being presented in what came to be known as the "dodgy dossier" was - how to put it, not based on accurate information. He gave an interview to the BBC, was quoted in the newspapers and across the media and was even summoned before select committee in Parliament. He was found dead - an apparent suicide due to the stress of being in the public eye. The BBC journalist who interviewed him was disciplined, the head of the BBC replaced and the organisation subjected to intense government pressure to come on side.

It also interesting to think about the untimely death of Robin Cook, UK Foreign Secretary at the time who resigned because of the government's wish to invade Iraq. As Foreign Secretary, one might expect Mr Cook to have been in on a fair deal of information that might embarass.

And then, the odd occurrence whereby the legal advice given to the UK government on the proposal to invade altered from a position whereby it was clearly and unambiguously illegal, to a position where it was clearly and unambiguously legal.

And the very strange case of Mr Blair is worth mentioning too.

Anyone with a knowledge of the sort of entertaining movies where some sinister group that possesses extraordinary powers to scheme and plot its way to its aims, and little moral fibre to match such that it either persuades or murders its way to its objectives, might see a theme alike with such movies in all this.

But of course, such people are nutjobs.

Having heard that Mr Powell apparently abandoned any thought of running for President himself on the strength of his wife's fears of assasination, is interesting.

E

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 1:25:46 PM

MistresseLotus

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It's the final nail in McCain's coffin. He didn't just say "I'm going to endorse Obama" ... he said WHY! :)
A retired general and a Republican, who's been in the war in the middle east, while serving in the Bush administration giving this endorsement holds a lot of weight.

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 1:29:39 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

A sec of State works for the president, but not as a commander in chief, but to represent him among other countries diplomatically... I never argued that he was not working for Bush... you are painting my position to be one that I do not hold and I would recommend you stick to debating my actual position instead of creating one I do not have. (straw man bs does not work with me).

You are painting him as someone who should have defied the President in front of the U.N. AND as someone you admit works for the President.

That's not straw man--unlike the bs you threw, which I notice you quickly abandoned once called on it.

If you don't like the guy, fine. If you think the Secretary of State should publically refute the President, fine.

But it's not gonna happen, then, now or ever.

[Incidentally---if you were "responding to others," then don't lay it at my feet.]

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/19/2008 1:38:12 PM >

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 2:19:56 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

You are painting him as someone who should have defied the President in front of the U.N. AND as someone you admit works for the President.

Um, I am not painting him as that. I am saying what he did. I am also saying I would not lie to the world as he did for my commander and chief. It is not complicated, it is not that hard to understand. He put his loyalty to the president above his loyalty to his country... pretty simple in my mind.

quote:

That's not straw man--unlike the bs you threw, which I notice you quickly abandoned once called on it.

quote:

Somehow, you think Powell somehow on his own went to the U.N. over this nonsense, independently?

please quote where I presented myself as having the position that Powell worked independently, because I assure you it is not a position I have presented.

quote:

If you don't like the guy, fine. If you think the Secretary of State should publically refute the President, fine.

Obviously you do not think it is "fine". Personally speaking if I worked for Bush and he wanted me to lie to the world about WMD I would resign my position and then I would come out and state that I felt there was not enough evidence to justify a war with Iraq and I could not in good conscience represent that position. I surely wish there were more principled people out there that would try to avert a war that threatens to destroy our nation.

quote:

[Incidentally---if you were "responding to others," then don't lay it at my feet.]

I have no idea what this means Mr. "Whatever" man, but then again half your posts addressed to me are not very logical, so forgive me if I do not get it.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/19/2008 2:20:29 PM >

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 2:26:04 PM

Musicmystery

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And that's the difference between you and Powell.

I don't even agree with Powell, a staunch Conservative, but I respect him greatly.

As for "more principled people out there that would try to avert a war that threatens to destroy our nation," that's Barrack Obama, who voted against it.

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RE: Meet the Press - 10/19/2008 2:31:31 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

As for "more principled people out there that would try to avert a war that threatens to destroy our nation," that's Barrack Obama, who voted against it.

Which is why I am voting for him

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