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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 11:37:01 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I fully accept that we would prefer to be the good guys, rebuilding a shattered country and all that - but that is only one of our objectives, and the secondary objective at that. Our prime objective is to prevent the country becoming a base for the preparation of terrorist acts as I thought.

....i couldn't disagree more. This is apparently a war on terror. It is, in essence, a culture war. In the West we have principles such as equality and liberty that we feel worth defending. We can't defend them while abandoning them. We have to hold the moral high ground. If we don't then we have already lost and by our own hand at that. We may win some arbitrary military objective, we may pacify a beaten country. However, unless we also win hearts and minds, unless we also propogate ideas such as justice, religious freedom and free speech......well, then we lose. Lose big time and for several generations.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 21

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 12:42:08 PM

LadyEllen

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I'm not saying that I think being the bad guys is a good thing Phil - I'm saying that if we want to win here we've got to become the bad guys

We set ourselves up for this with this whole "war on terror" thing really - its a war in which whether we choose to be the good guys or bad guys we cant win - for one reason or the other.

We can only win by being the bad guys and accepting our sole achievable goal to be the removal of the culture itself, which may mean the removal of the people themselves too - a culture which we have driven with western foreign policy to regard us with suspicion at best, hostility more generally, outright emnity at worst.

The ravens are home to roost on our foreign policy, and they shall eat well whatever we do now.

In this we see just what a bleedin' plonker one GW Bush truly is.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 22

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 12:48:58 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm not saying that I think being the bad guys is a good thing Phil - I'm saying that if we want to win here we've got to become the bad guys

....yup, and by becoming the bad guys we automatically lose too. Thus it becomes not a matter of how to win but what sort of loss do we want. We can lose by turning the ME into a big sheet of glass, or we can lose by letting a generation of politicians look stupid and worse than stupid. No brainer for me.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 23

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 1:07:18 PM

LadyEllen

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Yep thats the problem - I dont give a flying one for the politicans who've led us into this or otherwise stood by and aided and abetted by their omission or commission - but I do care that the egg will be on our faces as well as theirs. The climb down from the place we're now in translates to a message that our culture collectively is defeated, our power has faded and we go down in history as just another short lived empire. Thats not a problem in many ways - where it is a problem is in that without the position we hold now, we really are nothing, to be exploited by new empires as they will, the same as we do now to others - but of course its Mr and Mrs Average and their kids who will feel the weight of that, not the scumbags who got us into this.

Dont start a fight you cant win - one piece of advice Mr Bush has clearly never had or never understood.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 24

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 1:39:34 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

I think you and others who say we should get out of Afganistan are right in your judgement. I don't really understand why Barack would focus on this country of mountains and caves, whose principle export is poppy,
and strategically no where near as important as Iraq. Usama is in Pakistan anyway, and the risk is that a President Obama would do something stupid, go in to that country as he stated, and wind up destablizing the Pakistani government, a country with nuclear capability. No sir...not my kind of President...best we get out now..before he might take the helm and drag us into something really serious focusing on weeding out some taliban in the hills or a guy in a cave and leaving Iraq, the real prize, to deteriorate and truly become even more a part of the Iranian sphere of influence they are today.

Could be lawyers have so much to learn, rules, regulations and such, that they don't spend the time to learn geography. Iraq is one of the most strategically located countries in the mideast, has immense proven and unproven oil reserves, has an energetic,proud, intelligent peoples who, frankly, I would rather have on my side than against us because we deserted them to civil war and third world status. By the way, remember Pelosi and Reid and how we lost in Iraq, the huge civil war going on there...when did you last see that headline....Like the good "ambulance chasing" lawyers they are, they are now chasing the economy...the latest leading issue in the polls. What a way to govern..! What principles! NOT!

Your post is way off target on so many levels. Firstly, it wasnt Iraq that carried out 9/11, it was that guy in the cave you mentioned. If America are truly carrying out a war on terror, Al Qaida and Bin Laden were responsible for that. If you let them off the hook, sooner or later there will be another attack on US soil.

Secondly, Iran have no real influence on the Taliban, they are mostly a Sunni group, where as Iran is Shia. Sure they may carry out deals between each other against what they see as a common foe, but thats as far as it goes. Pakistan has a much greater influence on the Taliban than Iran ever did. Infact when the Taliban announced themselves in control of Afghanistan, only three countries gave them dimplomatic recognition. Pakisatan, the UAE and Saudi Arabia, who infact donate much of Al Qaidas funds and manpower.

You talk of Iraq being a prize, both strategically and for the oil reserves. I guess that throws the excuse of freeing the people from saddam out the window then. You also overlook that the US intends to pull its troops out of Iraq by 2011. When that happens you can be sure the Shia dominated parliament will be doing more deals with Iran, and that the Saudis will be very uneasy on having two Shia dominated countries near by.

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 25

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:00:01 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

         Mia, Senator Obama's statements about Afghanistan scare the crap out of me. I'm afraid he is going to use the conflict there to prove he can be "tough" on national defense, and, will spend tens of thousands of lives trying to fit a square ideology into an inconveniently round reality. There is no victory there.

          I'm also much bothered by his apparent disconnect on the psychological impact of our perceived defeat in Iraq (and it will be perceived that way, by his stated goals) on the will to fight among the Taliban, and tribesmen fitted with that label.

       The increasing violence? We ain't seen nothin yet.

Let me see if I understand this.

We have to continue the war in a country that never attacked us in order to avoid the perception of defeat.

But we should not increase our military engagement in a country where the people who did attack us still have free reign?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 26

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:03:17 PM

Steponme73

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Remember that you went to Obama supporters to get your information. CBS. So of course they will portray it in a certain light.
The violence is on the upswing, but I think it will subside once the elections are over here. I was in Viet Nam and the NVA did the same thing, increased attacks just prior to the election. Same old song different decade.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 27

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:10:12 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

I think you and others who say we should get out of Afganistan are right in your judgement. I don't really understand why Barack would focus on this country of mountains and caves, whose principle export is poppy,
and strategically no where near as important as Iraq. Usama is in Pakistan anyway, and the risk is that a President Obama would do something stupid, go in to that country as he stated, and wind up destablizing the Pakistani government, a country with nuclear capability. No sir...not my kind of President...best we get out now..before he might take the helm and drag us into something really serious focusing on weeding out some taliban in the hills or a guy in a cave and leaving Iraq, the real prize, to deteriorate and truly become even more a part of the Iranian sphere of influence they are today.

Maybe it has something to do with those buildings that fell down in New York?

And that guy in the White House who said he would get those responsible "dead or alive".

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/21/2008 2:11:30 PM >

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 28

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:15:52 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

but I do care that the egg will be on our faces as well as theirs.

...thing is, i'm not convinced that the egg is avoidable. Just a question of how much and where it sticks.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 29

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:27:12 PM

LadyEllen

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True Phil. We really cant win on the terms we'd like.

But its better to win and look like hypocrites but be in a position where we dont get treated as stupid by the rest of the world but are rather feared, than to lose and look stupid and be treated as such and a laughing stock to boot.

Believe me, I dont want my offspring, conscripted as they will be to get this thing done, behaving like members of the Einsatzgruppen to win at all costs, but I'll take that over them being virtual slaves if we lose through not taking the bull by the horns.

But of course, overall we have been suckered into this by the Saudis - who will not let us win or lose necessarily; its good for them to keep things as they are.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 30

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:46:11 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You obviously are not aware that the objective is not to conquer, because not all the people of Afghanistan are fighting against us. Not only that, but the part of the Afghani people that are wanting a stable and democratic country, are the ones that will be needed to gain intelligence because it is impossible to infiltrate many of the existing groups that are fighting against our troops.

I am fully aware of the declared objectives thanks - the question is whether we are using the right strategy to attain them.

But none of the objectives is conquest, and what you described in your previous post is conquest.

quote:

I fully accept that we would prefer to be the good guys, rebuilding a shattered country and all that - but that is only one of our objectives, and the secondary objective at that. Our prime objective is to prevent the country becoming a base for the preparation of terrorist acts as I thought.

It is not a preference to be the Good guys, we either are or we are not. To prevent the country from being a base to prepare and train terrorist we either must make it a barren wasteland, or make it so that the people who live there have a better choice than accepting what the terrorist do. You cannot do that by subjugating the locals, which you suggested in your first post.

quote:

We have tried the nice guys approach now for over six years, and it isnt working. It will never work, because the culture of the country is not one which respects nice guys. We are being played, thoroughly and deliberately.

Actually the culture respects "strength" and no one has shown any because until the last year, Afghanistan was kind of forgotten. They have not had the troops (type of and quantity), they have not had the assets (intelligence and supply), to do what they have needed to do. This is why the Taliban has gained in strength. Has not one damn thing about being too nice.

quote:

If we're serious about our prime objective - the reason we went in there in the first place, then the evidence of the effectiveness of strategy a, (making nice and building a democracy) is seriously lacking. As a US veteran on BBC this week said, "it took us 5 years to win in WWII, and we're now in year 6 over there".

Two different wars with much different objectives. You really cannot compare apples and oranges. You also need to include the rebuild time if you want to accurately compare them.

quote:

If we're serious about that prime objective then we have to approach it the same as we did nazi Germany - total capitulation of all enemy forces and surrender of all civilians and businesses to our control. If we're serious about preventing more 9/11 type events and we're sure that Afghanistan is the key to that, then its time for the gloves to come off.

Point to the army that our troops must engage in a conventional war. Point to the supply lines and depots that we must attack. Point to the air power we must engage. Your suggestion of punishing civilians that are not involved, is actually what would cause our defeat. Have you ever read or studied about rebel or insurgent warfare? If you do some internet searches you will come up with some good stuff, and it will explain some of the disastrous things that your suggestions would bring about.

quote:

Otherwise we can look forward to either ignominious defeat that will hearten those who would destroy us, or a lengthy occupation that costs more and more in lives and money year by year.

E

Give some of those Canadian commanders the assets they need, and then watch what happens. At the same time, money and reconstruction of the civilian sector needs to occur. Laying the foundation for a stable country once forces are withdrawn will take a damn long time. That is the correct strategy for the objectives as has been presented, but if people do not have the stomach and patience for that then we should pull out. Making the civilian population suffer even more, is more than being the bad guys, it is being the down right evil guys and then shows there is not much difference between us and the Taliban.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 31

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:48:39 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

True Phil. We really cant win on the terms we'd like.

.....very important point, and one that was made before the whole sorry debacle started. Of course those of us who pointed this out were unpatriotic or worse apparently......

quote:

But its better to win and look like hypocrites but be in a position where we dont get treated as stupid by the rest of the world but are rather feared, than to lose and look stupid and be treated as such and a laughing stock to boot.

.......this is where i strongly disagree. Mostly because being seen as hypocrites simply isn't a win. This culture war can't be won in an expedient way.......it can only be won in an ethical one. We may take some flak, some insults.....our pride will be hurt......but is our pride worth genocide? Is our pride worth a large sheet of glass where the middle east used to be?

quote:

Believe me, I dont want my offspring, conscripted as they will be to get this thing done, behaving like members of the Einsatzgruppen to win at all costs, but I'll take that over them being virtual slaves if we lose through not taking the bull by the horns.

...doesn't follow. We wont be slaves if we get out. Iraqis wont come over to the UK and start appropriating land.

quote:

But of course, overall we have been suckered into this by the Saudis - who will not let us win or lose necessarily; its good for them to keep things as they are.

...possibly, but in a way that just backs up my point. If we've been suckered into this the only sane response is to stop playing their game.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 32

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 3:01:06 PM

LadyEllen

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we cant stop playing the game Phil - and it certainly isnt the Afghans or Iraqis who will exploit the weakness we have exhibited and the loss of confidence we will have if we do; these are relatively minor players in the "Bring Down The West" boardgame.

we cant do ethically - it doesnt matter how ethical we are in Iraq or Afghanistan if we continue to support the injustices against the Palestinian people and otherwise prosecute foreign policy which radicalises an entire culture against us. It is incongruous, and obviously so and aint no-one out there would think any differently no matter what infrastructure we build in those two countries

our choice is to be either utterly ethical and hope to be forgiven and reach a compromised understanding or utterly ruthless, not give a damn and destroy all opposition to our interests. The former is a non-starter given the lobbies involved in changing course on foreign policy, the latter is a non-starter because we dont have the stomach for it - but we'd best develop it if we want any other outcome than a placid Afghanistan that wont become the breeding ground for more of what we're meant to be there to prevent.

Pulling out is an option of course - but that is not ethical. The murderous reign of the Taliban, strengthened by its fury at the cooperation of some of the popluation with the infidel, will return.

Staying is the only other option, and then it becomes a case of the above - how to get the job done, when what we're doing and have done has had little effect.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 33

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 3:17:59 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

we cant do ethically - it doesnt matter how ethical we are in Iraq or Afghanistan if we continue to support the injustices against the Palestinian people and otherwise prosecute foreign policy which radicalises an entire culture against us. It is incongruous, and obviously so and aint no-one out there would think any differently no matter what infrastructure we build in those two countries

our choice is to be either utterly ethical and hope to be forgiven and reach a compromised understanding or utterly ruthless, not give a damn and destroy all opposition to our interests. The former is a non-starter given the lobbies involved in changing course on foreign policy, the latter is a non-starter because we dont have the stomach for it - but we'd best develop it if we want any other outcome than a placid Afghanistan that wont become the breeding ground for more of what we're meant to be there to prevent.

....the third option is to totally overhaul foreign policy in the middle east, as a whole. Arguably the least likely given the West's internal vested interests, but just about the only solution in the long term. While the West are wedded to the idea that people in the middle east don't matter, that their views can be safely ignored, that the only interests that do matter are ours........then the problem is intractable.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 34

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 3:21:17 PM

LadyEllen

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Indeed Phil - you see, we do see it mostly eye to eye.

All I'm saying really I guess - utterly ethical or utterly ruthless is the only way to win

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 35

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 3:27:22 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Indeed Phil - you see, we do see it mostly eye to eye.

All I'm saying really I guess - utterly ethical or utterly ruthless is the only way to win

E

...yanno, i was raised in a single parent family. Consequently, my father figure was Captain Kirk. Now the one thing i've taken from him (or at least his writers) is that, when faced with two dislikeable alternatives.......reject them both. There's always a third way if you look hard enough and are willing to throw the accepted paradigms out the window.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 36

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 3:29:36 PM

LadyEllen

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I had a similar situation Phil what with my dad "on his bike" as Tebbitt directed

My father figure was Adolf Hitler

Do you think it shows in my posts?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 37

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 3:33:39 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I had a similar situation Phil what with my dad "on his bike" as Tebbitt directed

My father figure was Adolf Hitler

Do you think it shows in my posts?

E

...nein.....

*runs and hides KittinSol in an attic*

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 38

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 3:36:17 PM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Not to worry Phil - I'm also a big girl (according to my biological father) so lack that genocidal streak you know?

I could learn, but its so much more fun to be sociable, you know?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 39

RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 4:06:20 PM

dreamysubmale

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

        Mia, Senator Obama's statements about Afghanistan scare the crap out of me. I'm afraid he is going to use the conflict there to prove he can be "tough" on national defense, and, will spend tens of thousands of lives trying to fit a square ideology into an inconveniently round reality. There is no victory there.

         I'm also much bothered by his apparent disconnect on the psychological impact of our perceived defeat in Iraq (and it will be perceived that way, by his stated goals) on the will to fight among the Taliban, and tribesmen fitted with that label.

      The increasing violence? We ain't seen nothin yet.



Let me see if I understand this.

We have to continue the war in a country that never attacked us in order to avoid the perception of defeat.

But we should not increase our military engagement in a country where the people who did attack us still have free reign?

Currently nearly $100m a day is being spent on the war, yet since 2001 just $7m a day has been spent on Afghans themselves, according to the Agency Co-ordinating Body for Afghan.

Afghanistan is in a grip of a drought, 11 million Afghans need food to survive. That's one third of the population.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7674623.stm

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 40

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