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RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/23/2008 3:43:22 PM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
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my Sir has voiced two rules -    1. I am never wrong!

and                                           2. If you think i am wrong, refer to rule #1.

Having said that i am pretty sure that he was joking    .....   i hope.
my Sir hasn't done anything that required an apology, so we haven't had to address that, but he is human enough, and is committed to our relationship to do what is necessary to maintain it. To not apologise would, to me, indicate a level of arrogance that is unattractive to me. And really, a level of immaturity that is off-putting.

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 21

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/23/2008 4:11:08 PM

WhiplashSmile2

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
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Personally, it's not always easy to come forward and admit to somebody, Hey I was wrong. It all depends upon the situation at hand. I try to not let's go for too long if I have made and realize I made a mistake. It's realizing and seeing that I've made a mistake that can be an issue at times. Which is one reason why I have an open door policy that allows my partner to freely voice their emotions, feelings and thoughts.

In regards to a collar, that can come off either way you go. A sub/slave is just as capable of self collar removal as a Dom/Master is at removing it. Collars coming off is serious business, end of relationship type of stuff in my book. Not something to use in the middle of problems or disagreements. Collars are on par with wedding rings in terms of being symbols of commitment.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 22

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/23/2008 5:16:14 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Ds = double standard, but there's still a standard.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 23

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/23/2008 8:01:37 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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All I can say is if my previous owner took accountability rather than rationalizing and blaming, things would be a lot different now. It was never an apology I wanted; rather, the truth. And the truth is that certain behaviors were hurting me enormously. The inability to talk openly and truthfully about what was happening added further damage to what had been done, and my ability to meet his expectations as a result became nearly impossible.

It's the truth about things that is important, not the need to call someone on the carpet for something. I get no pleasure or satisfaction out of that. I just need to live in an honest and unstifled relationship. Anything else is just too frustrating and painful.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 24

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/23/2008 9:29:58 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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I agree that dominant persons are as fallible as anyone else, and it would follow that it is not solely the dominant’s purview to modify the course of action within the dynamic.

I believe that as the submissive one in my relationships I am accountable for and capable of self correction. I know when my attitude needs adjustment, I am fully aware of my mistakes, and I am able to evaluate what needs to be done to fix whatever is out of synch.
Both R. and S. allow, or should I say expect me to amend my own mental and physical conduct when necessary and then bring it to them along with possible solutions. They also respect my input regarding their administration and direction.
A number of months ago there was a glitch in my relationship with R. It began when he did/said something at a time when I was very vulnerable. He did not intend the hurt, but I was very angry. At first I thought of it as his problem, then tried to take it on as mine and finally realized it was our problem. It was only then that I could talk about it with him. He recognized all along that I was struggling, with something but gave me the time I needed. He could have demanded a speedier resolution; he could have corrected my errors in thinking. But his gift to me (and one of the reasons I choose to submit to him) has always been his trust that my brain’s process will get me to the place he wants me to be.
.
I obey and submit, not out of fear (fear of losing something, fear of pain or punishment), but because I know that my responsibilities do not stop at serving/pleasing the dominant; they expand, perhaps more importantly,, to serve the partnership.
(omg, did I just type out loud that something/anything could be more important than pleasing the dominant?!?!?!?)

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 25

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/23/2008 10:53:42 PM

VivaciousSub

Posts: 446
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

I've been with three D types over the last 5 years, and the one that bombed was due to an issue that I regarded as solely the D-type's, namely his arrogance and immaturity. I have had relationship foibles before and since, with the other two Doms and those times we got through just fine, if not better, because I was dealing with someone who wasn't so full of himself that he had his own gravitational field.

To perhaps put it more clearly, the guy in question would not ever hear of the fact that he could be wrong/hurtful/stupid and took no responsibility for his words or actions, seeking to put them all on my shoulders. I know when I've made a mistake, and can own up to it, but he never could.

I ended the relationship and moved on to better things, like my Sir :)

_____________________________

9.8m/s^2 + VivaciousSub + ground = ouchx10^9th

To yield readily--easily--to the persuasion of a friend is no merit.... To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of either. ~ Pride and Prejudice

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 26

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 4:56:32 AM

SrchngCpl73112

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/21/2008
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This is a great thread and I love anything posted by Leadership. We have a very similar relationship. There is no way i could stay in a relationship with a man that couldnt admit when he was wrong and take responsibility for that and apologize, if needed. To me that is a man being a man. That is one thing that i love so much about him is that he can admit when he is wrong and he can say "im sorry".

(in reply to VivaciousSub)

Post #: 27

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 6:01:07 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

It's the truth about things that is important, not the need to call someone on the carpet for something.

Here is a saying that makes sense in my mind:
Feelings are facts.
An apology is often meaningless to me. To point fingers keeps us in the past; accepting the truth (the facts) provides forward momentum.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 28

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 7:31:47 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

It's the truth about things that is important, not the need to call someone on the carpet for something.

Here is a saying that makes sense in my mind:
Feelings are facts.
An apology is often meaningless to me. To point fingers keeps us in the past; accepting the truth (the facts) provides forward momentum.

This is an interesting concept, catize. When I was married, my husband would always tell me what I was feeling was wrong because my feelings weren't tied to facts. After awhile, talk about not trusting what you feel anymore! I agree with you about staying in the past by holding onto negative feelings and wanting redemption. It's for that reason that I chose not to be angry and bitter about some things that have happened, and just moved forward (or in some cases, continue to work on moving forward). But what you said about accepting the truth (the facts) is critical. It's accountability. If I've screwed up and hurt someone, I want to be accountable for it and admit it. It's hard for someone to accept and move on with someone if the "offender" won't acknowledge the damage that was done in the first place. That's when you have to reevaluate where you are and consider a change, if necessary.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 29

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 8:41:13 AM

bound4more

Posts: 128
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline

Thank you for this post, leadership, and to all those who have participated, for your openness and honesty. I know for me, I could never and I mean that quite literally, I just plain couldn't sincerely submit to anyone who had the attitude of "I'm Master, so I'm never wrong". I may be able to go through the motions for a time, but deep inside, that Owner would never truly own me.

Although there are times when I do wonder if submissives have left their own common sense on another planet, but that's in relation to some other threads, I find that we, in general, are highly intelligent, strongly opinionated, creatures. Submission is not the result of stupidity or ignorance. For me at least it's a choice. So for any D-type to hold the attitude of "I'm never wrong", well, I don't know, it seems to me one doesn't have to be exceptionally bright to know that's not even humanly possible.

Would I ever be able to respect and WANT to submit to someone like that - absolutely not. As a matter of fact, that attitude would be extremely detrimental to my psyche and self-esteem. Since I do believe my Master has my well-being in his care, I trust in what he says, in his instruction, and focus on being pleasing to him, believing that in doing so I am doing what's best for him, myself and us. If he never acknowledged his own mistakes, I would not trust him, I would gradually doubt myself more and more which would cause me to doubt the choice I'd made in an owner. If I stayed and tried to believe that how he acted was right, I'd develop a sense of over responsibility for everything and just plain find myself a miserable creature. So the balance of accountability and acknowledgement of mistakes and apology are tantamount to the very nature of our relationship.

I'm delighted that this topic has been posted, as I do feel more dominants would do well to recognize that D/s and M/s do not mean you get to act like a complete ass and justify it because well - you're the dominant. Both D and s positions carry a high degree of responsibility, accountability, consideration and awareness of the advantages and possible pitfalls of the dynamic - the affect on the relationship and the individuals within it. I sincerely believe that submission is not only a choice, but something I deliver to one who arouses within me a strong desire to offer myself to him unabashedly.

_____________________________

You can tell who someone really is by how they act

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 30

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 8:51:26 AM

bound4more

Posts: 128
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Feelings are facts.

I must say I don't agree with this statement. There have been many many times that my feelings are strong and have nothing to do with facts. Say Master calls me and says "tonight, be ready to be used well". Now the only fact involved is that a statement has been delivered to me. My feelings are the result of my interpretation of that statement. I may feel anxious and fearful, or excited and thrilled. I may feel any number of things, but these feelings have nothing at all to do with any facts. The only fact that exists is a statement has been made. Any feelings attached to that fact come from within me. That doesn't mean I won't pay attention to how I feel about something, but I don't believe my feelings are facts. They are simply my perception based on my beliefs, opinions, attitudes, desires, dislikes, etc.

_____________________________

You can tell who someone really is by how they act

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 31

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 9:15:59 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bound4more

quote:

Feelings are facts.

I must say I don't agree with this statement. There have been many many times that my feelings are strong and have nothing to do with facts. Say Master calls me and says "tonight, be ready to be used well". Now the only fact involved is that a statement has been delivered to me. My feelings are the result of my interpretation of that statement. I may feel anxious and fearful, or excited and thrilled. I may feel any number of things, but these feelings have nothing at all to do with any facts. The only fact that exists is a statement has been made. Any feelings attached to that fact come from within me. That doesn't mean I won't pay attention to how I feel about something, but I don't believe my feelings are facts. They are simply my perception based on my beliefs, opinions, attitudes, desires, dislikes, etc.

To be told how you should or shouldn’t feel denies the reality that the feeling exists as is. It’s there whether you or anyone else thinks it should be.
An emotional response stands on its own; it is what it is; it can not be argued away.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to bound4more)

Post #: 32

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 9:31:13 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

It's accountability.

Perfect summation, NuevaVida.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 33

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 10:22:09 AM

DavanKael

Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
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Hi, Leadership527----
I always enjoy reading your posts; you have more insight than many and you look at the bigger picture. You've given me some well-reasoned thoughts, which I have appreciated.

You clipped this following quote and commented to another poster:
quote:
My personal opinion, is that by admitting your mistake, apologizing, discussing, and taking measures to correct yourself, as well as ensuring that such a mistake is not repeated, IS living up to your end of the bargain.

This, you said, was a statement from your wife.
Be the relationship dyadic or more, I think those are extremely prudent words and words from which to move forward. Of course D-type folks can err as can any type of s-type folk, as can we all: we are all human. Taking the time to stand amidst that humanity and to trust our hearts, our sense of rightness, etc. is important, imo, and it seems as if you and your wife both agree that you have honoured that.
Davan

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 34

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 11:12:36 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

Mr. Merc
*laughs* I win, I win. OK seriously, this is exactly why you two are so wonderful for us. As I expected, under the covers it's all perfectly understandable and yes, reciprocal. Good thing too, with me being lazy and shiftless nowadays, twenty dollar bills aren't exactly growing on trees. *laughs*. As others have noted in this thread, the actual apology itself isn't nearly as important as correcting the problem. That you two are so "together" that you have not failed each other in a major way, or if you have, it was perceived as a joint problem is... well... more than commendable. Matter of fact, it is karmically sound... your happiness which is visible for all to see is your own reward. I'm very glad you posted on this thread. All too often, I think that newcomers come and read posts by people such as yourselves, and all they see is the surface layers... how sadistic and dominant Merc is. How submissive beth is. At that level, it sounds so unilateral. What is not visible is the fact that, exactly as you have said, you earned that trust and continue to earn it every day. Without that, none of the rest of it works.

bound4more
This is the fundamental truth of leadership in any context whatsoever. All humans know that all humans are flawed. Ergo, any human who tells you that they are not is a liar. I have met few people in my life that are comfortable following liars. It'd be nice of more leaders knew that... not just BDSM, but leaders in business, military, everywhere.

DavanKael:
Thanks for the kind words.

Catize:
I agree completely. Feeling are, by definition, a factual statement. If someone says, "I am sad." Then they are. The reasons for that sadness may or may not be accurate, but the sadness itself is inarguable. Insofar as looking backwards vs. forward, at least for us the point of an apology is not to assign blame or put the apologizer down. It is to make a clear statement that says, "I understand what I did and I understand how it hurt you." Fine, hugs kisses and let's move on. But in the end, there is no substitute for actually correcting the problem. This is why I don't do corporal punishment. If my wife has transgressed against me, there is no way that she's getting out of it as easily as taking a spanking. Either it was small in which case, pffft, ignore it and move on. Or, alternatively, it was large in which case it needs to be fixed, not papered over. I want to know that she understands the crime so that she can use that understanding to stop future repeats. The apology is just the first step. It's not meaningless, but it is also insufficient.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to bound4more)

Post #: 35

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 11:48:48 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

The apology is just the first step. It's not meaningless, but it is also insufficient.

I didn’t expand much on that particular thought and I like what you added to it. “Sorry” is too often a glib word with no follow up action, so yes, it is insufficient on its own.
Long ago I was in an abusive relationship. After a truly horrible night, I would get a dozen red roses sent to me at work. They were not only meaningless, they were manipulative. I had no illusions that he had any intentions to change.
Given the choice of a pat and empty apology or no apology but a real effort to improve, I’ll take the latter.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 36

RE: Tonight on Fox! When Doms go bad! - 10/24/2008 1:20:30 PM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
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quote:

When I was married, my husband would always tell me what I was feeling was wrong because my feelings weren't tied to facts. After awhile, talk about not trusting what you feel anymore!

What your husband did not understand, like so many others, is that feelings are as powerful, if not more powerful, than facts. Truth be told, people tend to process either through their hearts (emotional) or through their heads (facts). Neither is right or wrong, they are simply different. Most people have a tendency to do both, with one being dominant (so to speak). There are also a lot of people who process almost exclusively from one of the two.

When someone who processes life through their head meets up with someone who does so through their heart; that takes a great deal of work on both partners to make the relationship work. They are both, in essence, speaking different languages.

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 37

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