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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 8:05:16 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness
lol isn't it funny that we use examples outside the lifestyle, because we can't describe the lifestyle?

I personally have no difficulty describing both WIITWD and my perceptions of the lifestyle in general to pretty much any audience... straight or vanilla... in simple and non-threatening terms. I personally find it astonishing that a group of posters (maybe 4 or so participating in this eddy of the thread) with a collective real life experience of maybe 75 years or so, cannot describe what it is that they've been doing for three quarters of a century in anything other than the vaguest of generalities.

A long time ago, my mentor told me the a definition for the word "expert" which I use to this day. An "expert" is a person who can explain a complex topic to a layperson in simple and clear terms that get right to the heart of the matter for that person. If you talk to someone and end up feeling like you heard lots of talk about erudite topics, but you still don't know anything, then the person is not an expert.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 201

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 8:07:27 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Note to self... must push "send" more quickly. :)

John

Ooooh are we racing?? Heh...I just thought it was a case of GMTA.

But I'll let you win the next race.

*LOL* Nah, no race... just a bit of humor. And if I were in your shoes (red pumps, preferrably), I would not be so anxious to make any comparison to my faulty mind.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 202

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 8:08:10 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

A long time ago, my mentor told me the a definition for the word "expert" which I use to this day. An "expert" is a person who can explain a complex topic to a layperson in simple and clear terms that get right to the heart of the matter for that person. If you talk to someone and end up feeling like you heard lots of talk about erudite topics, but you still don't know anything, then the person is not an expert.

You means something like.............

"I command... she obeys.... being doing that for the last 20 years. Any questions?"

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 203

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 8:58:07 AM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

A long time ago, my mentor told me the a definition for the word "expert" which I use to this day. An "expert" is a person who can explain a complex topic to a layperson in simple and clear terms that get right to the heart of the matter for that person. If you talk to someone and end up feeling like you heard lots of talk about erudite topics, but you still don't know anything, then the person is not an expert.

to me an expert is some one that can explain and DO the thing he talks about.
Not just talk.

there are so many opinions about "simple" things..that is why our discussions last so long.
but all views are as interesting to me.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 204

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 9:02:50 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

there are so many opinions about "simple" things..that is why our discussions last so long.
but all views are as interesting to me.

I agree.. and why I don't think anyone is so much of an expert or master that that can't learn a thing or two. In fact, I think the best kind of expert or master is one who is constantly looking to learn about their own choose interest or interests... even on the simple things.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 205

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 9:15:32 AM

JustDarkness

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agree back at you ;)

constant learning...or at least beeing open to others opinion....is something I respect a lott.
(and try to do myself...but sometimes I don't Master that :P )

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 206

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 11:13:55 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I personally have no difficulty describing both WIITWD and my perceptions of the lifestyle in general to pretty much any audience... straight or vanilla... in simple and non-threatening terms. I personally find it astonishing that a group of posters (maybe 4 or so participating in this eddy of the thread) with a collective real life experience of maybe 75 years or so, cannot describe what it is that they've been doing for three quarters of a century in anything other than the vaguest of generalities.

A long time ago, my mentor told me the a definition for the word "expert" which I use to this day. An "expert" is a person who can explain a complex topic to a layperson in simple and clear terms that get right to the heart of the matter for that person. If you talk to someone and end up feeling like you heard lots of talk about erudite topics, but you still don't know anything, then the person is not an expert.

I could explain MY relationship model easily enough. I'm an expert in my own relationship and how it works and what occurs inside of it and that's all. I wouldn't even begin to explain the 'lifestyle' or what it is that other people do in anything other than very general terms.

It's like describing 'mother', father' or 'family' or 'friend'. You can go as far as the general aspects but beyond that every single person's perception is different.

agirl

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 207

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 11:32:04 AM

oceanwynds

Posts: 1044
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Well put agirl:)

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 208

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 11:37:31 AM

JustDarkness

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Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

I'm an expert in my own relationship

or..

"I'm an expert of my own side in a relationship"

Do we really know exactly what the other, the partner, thinks of a relation?

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 209

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 11:47:38 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

I'm an expert in my own relationship

or..

"I'm an expert of my own side in a relationship"

Do we really know exactly what the other, the partner, thinks of a relation?

I rather think I do, yes.

agirl

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 210

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 11:48:21 AM

JustDarkness

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"think" ;)

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 211

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 12:21:19 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

"think" ;)

LOL..Let's say it this way Mr Pedant...I know enough to know that I know what I know and that anything that I don't know, doesn't matter. Grins.

agirl

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 212

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 1:19:23 PM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

"think" ;)

LOL..Let's say it this way Mr Pedant...I know enough to know that I know what I know and that anything that I don't know, doesn't matter. Grins.

agirl

hehehe ok.....love that way of looking at things
to know all doesn't make happy either

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 213

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 3:02:49 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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I think the point leadership is trying to get at is rather then take the politically correct route of education nihilism in each and every thread regarding the all too obvious bumper sticker statements of...

There is no difference between a submissive and slave
There is no difference between a dominant and Master
There is no difference between vanilla and BDSM
There is no difference between a D/S and M/S

... it might be more beneficial if we discussed our shared experiences in terms such as "In my lifestyle..." or "In my experiences, I have found such generalizations." without jumping down each other's throats for suggesting there might be SOME differences that we can learn and benefit from.

Of course, I've jumped on that bandwagon in the past of "nothingness", but am quickly learning the folly of my ways since I am really tired of reading thread after thread of really nothing productive or educational.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 214

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/31/2008 3:19:02 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

*LOL* Nah, no race... just a bit of humor. And if I were in your shoes (red pumps, preferrably), I would not be so anxious to make any comparison to my faulty mind.

John

I think mine is the mind that should be feared. Thanks for the chuckle.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 215

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 11/1/2008 7:45:45 AM

WhiplashSmile2

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline

I'm having to do some serious rethinking on the matter of skillset involved here. Not just in those so called vanilla relationships but in D/s or any relationship.

I seem to be somewhat fated for an interesting path or journey, not certain where it's fully going yet. It's been full of many unexpected suprises thus far.

I'd love to point the fingers at... LA, MercnBeth, KnightsofMist.. as well as myself and this amazing girl that happened into my life. A connected series of unexpected things unfolding..

For a couple of months, I really felt I was not getting much of anything out of the message boards for personal growth and such. All have to express right now, today is beautiful day of sorts.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 216

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 11/1/2008 8:27:29 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Of course, I've jumped on that bandwagon in the past of "nothingness", but am quickly learning the folly of my ways since I am really tired of reading thread after thread of really nothing productive or educational.

Thank you Mad...

Every single thing we face in life is like this... everything. But for some reason, this sort of viewpoint ONLY seems to come up in the BDSM world. Let's suppose, for instance, that I wanted to go to the store today and buy some apples for a pie. Not being much of an apple person, I post on some cooking site asking about the right kind of apples. Would I expect someone to tell me "every apple is unique and every pie is unique. I can only tell you about the pie I baked last time, and maybe the pie I baked before that. But I certainly cannot tell you about apples or pies in general." If someone told me that they were an expert chef, would I be content with that answer?

No, if I asked that question, what I would get back would undoubtedly be some well thought out posts about different types of apples. I'd get information about how some are sweeter and others tarter and therefor more appropriate both to different tastes and different recipes. Some have a firmer texture which changes the final pie in X way. Others have too much moisture for a pie and ruin the crust. I might also get some useful information about how to select "good" apples at the grocery store. Why is this any different?

Of course every single person's perception is different. That is the mantra of the BDSM community (unless, of course, it's everything is the same). In real life though, normal people dial up and down the level of abstraction they are looking at depending on the question that is being asked. This is something that all of us do without even thinking about it every day in a lot of situations. From that, I have to conclude that this business of "either we look at it in an electron microscope or through the hubble telescope" is a learned behavior of the BDSM community and I, for one, would like to know why.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 217

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 11/1/2008 9:20:54 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I think the point leadership is trying to get at is rather then take the politically correct route of education nihilism in each and every thread regarding the all too obvious bumper sticker statements of...

There is no difference between a submissive and slave
There is no difference between a dominant and Master
There is no difference between vanilla and BDSM
There is no difference between a D/S and M/S

And yet I believe there is a definite difference between all those pairs. I believe our inability to clarify those differences has more to do with personal egos than any objective realities.

quote:

... it might be more beneficial if we discussed our shared experiences in terms such as "In my lifestyle..." or "In my experiences, I have found such generalizations." without jumping down each other's throats for suggesting there might be SOME differences that we can learn and benefit from.

I think that's a potentially very useful suggestion. How would you begin?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 218

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 11/1/2008 9:35:05 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Why is this any different?

Because last I checked, most of us weren't having an intimate personal relationship with an apple, neither was a significant portion of our self image associated with a particular kind of pie.

What I have observed is that when someone says they are a "slave", or a "dom", or a "goddess", or some other such they are doing more than adopting a title. They are telling us how they wish to be perceived and how they perceive themselves... a portion of their personal identity is involved, and therefor their ego. But as it is personal, it is also all highly subjective. These identities may well have formed in a near vaccum, influenced by who knows what concepts, ideas, imagery, etc. and as a result vary widely.

When someone attempts to a definition of those terms, however well intentioned they may be... if that definition (or should I say when it inevitably) contradicts someone's personal definition, they will almost always defend their own definition. That objective definition becomes a personal attack on their self image, their identity, and as such they defend it (often very strongly) as though they had been attacked because in essence, they have. It then becomes a struggle of wills to see which definition wins out. If the conflict is merely between two individuals, it will most likely end in a draw with both choosing to ignore the other, particularly online or in other places where it is easy to ignore someone else. If there is a community and it supports one side or the other, then the individual will tend to submit to the community or leave.

In other words, if we want a common definition here... we had best be prepared for a fight, and we had better be willing to hang together or watch it wither.

quote:

...is a learned behavior of the BDSM community and I, for one, would like to know why.

I think much of it is a defensive behavior... a way of evading the conflict.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 219

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 11/1/2008 9:43:16 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

What I have observed is that when someone says they are a "slave", or a "dom", or a "goddess", or some other such they are doing more than adopting a title. They are telling us how they wish to be perceived and how they perceive themselves... a portion of their personal identity is involved, and therefor their ego. But as it is personal, it is also all highly subjective.

That's it in a nutshell.... the labels people apply to themselves say less about who or what they are than they do about who and what they perceive (or wish) themselves to be.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 220

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