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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 4:33:20 PM   
SlyStone


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quote:

Learning how to do that well, especially when you go past the places one tends to find in a vanilla relationship are where many D/s relationships break down




Actually I would think the exact opposite is true. I could easily make the argument  that the power exchange is quite simple, much more so than the ebbs and flows of your basic boring run of the mill shifting power vanilla relationship that so many here seem to have contempt for. And if all it took was understanding and committing to the power exchange, D/s relationships would be very easy to sustain for long periods of time. That doesn't seem to be the case.

I think D/s relationships mostly break down because many people who come to it are not being  true to themselves and attempt to be something that they are not.  I think they also break down  because the power exchange, by definition, is a very limited and limiting dynamic and USUALLY over time will fall to the all encompassing forces of reality. In this case the forces of reality is simply that people change over time and the dynamic that works at one point in our lives will need to change and evolve as well if the relationship is to survive.

Your implication, when you talk about going "past the places" in a vanilla relationship is that the D/s relationship is somehow more meaningful than the vanilla one. While it is true that exploring the D/s dynamic may lead one to different places, that in no way means that they are better or more special or somehow deeper.

The truth is that while the D/s dynamic may enhance a relationship it just as well destroy it, especially when it comes with unrealistic expectations.. We are all of us, regardless of what type of relationship we may be in, capable of going "past" and reaching new heights of intimacy and love, why not just leave it at that?


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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 4:35:15 PM   
SlyStone


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From: Chicago
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quote:

For us to engage in a no holds barred, master slave relationship requires of us substantially more relationship skills on almost every level.




Or perhaps it requires less. 


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 4:42:13 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
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Status: offline 		Rover, it was in attempting to formulate some advice and comments to something that I started working on this idea.

The idea of ownership and how one plays with that concept.  While I do not believe one person can truly own another, how we manifest that feeling in a relationship and walk the line (wherever it is in a given relationship) is one that is very important.  How to "see" the limits of that ownership, how to handle the ebb and flow of desire for that ownership is not a skill one learns outside of bdsm.  How many posts do we see daily on people who either don't feel "owned" enough or who feel they are being overly controlled.  Managing that emotional feeling is very much a skill.

Another example would be how we handle the dichotomies inherent in D/s.  Your submissive comes home after a rough day.  Sometimes you need to order them to take the bubble bath you drew for them, sometimes they just need a loose rein.  Those two things are both common to vanilla relationships.  In a D/s one, sometimes what that submissive needs is to be used hard and put away wet.  Knowing how to take care of your partner is again, a vanilla skill but that third option and others like it are not ones commonly found in vanilla relationships.

I also like these because they are clearly ones that are simply different than vanilla rather than "better". 

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 5:07:51 PM   
leadership527


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Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Valid Points Padriag... I'm going to have to mull on that. I think there's at least pieces of the truth in there although internally it's still not all fitting into place. I think I may have to go back to Rover's comment... The bottom line is that since nobody can actually define what a vanilla relationship is, nor can anyone define what an M/s relationship is, the most that can be said by me is...

To go from OUR vanilla relationship to OUR m/s relationship demands more of us.

This honestly smacks of the "let's not examine anything lest we inadvertently judge something" mentality that is so prevalent in the BDSM community. That's why I like to have this sort of conversation face to face in smaller groups. It's easier to cut past the knee-jerk responses.

Oceanwynds: Completely valid and completely understood. I commented on minimum requirements to succeed and how such minimum requirements would tend to develop skills. In no way would I ever think to comment on the maximum achievable "goodness" value of any relationship type. In the end, everyone brings to it what they do. For instance, I have developed my skills with Carol recently. If she were to die and I was looking for a new life partner, it would be among the vanilla crowd and for a vanilla relationship. But I didn't just unlearn everything I learned here. So there you would have a "vanilla relationship" that had many of these same relationship skills elements expressed at least by one party.


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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 5:20:51 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Rover, it was in attempting to formulate some advice and comments to something that I started working on this idea.


Don't get me wrong, Michael.  I think it's a fascinating subject, made moreso because there are differing opinions. 

quote:


The idea of ownership and how one plays with that concept.  While I do not believe one person can truly own another, how we manifest that feeling in a relationship and walk the line (wherever it is in a given relationship) is one that is very important.  How to "see" the limits of that ownership, how to handle the ebb and flow of desire for that ownership is not a skill one learns outside of bdsm. 


Nor is that a skill one learns within BDSM.  I have never learned to own (cripes, sounds like a Rent A Center commercial)... I've merely applied the skills I brought to BDSM, combined with my experiences prior to Leather and post Leather.  Not once did anyone teach me how to own, nor did I set out to teach myself how to own.  In every instance, I simply set out to make it work to my satisfaction (and our mutual gratification).

quote:


How many posts do we see daily on people who either don't feel "owned" enough or who feel they are being overly controlled.  Managing that emotional feeling is very much a skill.


The best we can do as Dominants is influence those emotions.  I know that for a fact.  I had a girl that was (and is) bipolar.  Never again will I kid myself that I am responsible for someone else's emotions, real or imagined.  If it doesn't work for them, it doesn't work for me.  I know when to throw in the towel.
 
And I don't believe you can credibly claim that vanillas don't become quite adept at learning how to influence their partner's emotions as well.  They do it all the time.


quote:


Another example would be how we handle the dichotomies inherent in D/s.  Your submissive comes home after a rough day.  Sometimes you need to order them to take the bubble bath you drew for them, sometimes they just need a loose rein.  Those two things are both common to vanilla relationships.  In a D/s one, sometimes what that submissive needs is to be used hard and put away wet.  Knowing how to take care of your partner is again, a vanilla skill but that third option and others like it are not ones commonly found in vanilla relationships.


Are we limiting ourselves to what is "common"?  Besides, I think "you need a good screw" is far more common in the vanilla world than you're giving it credit for.  I've even used it myself, in an entirely vanilla setting (and in my pre Leather years).

quote:


I also like these because they are clearly ones that are simply different than vanilla rather than "better". 


Honestly, Michael... I don't see the difference.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/26/2008 5:22:45 PM >

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Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 5:30:16 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I understand your feelings about smaller groups... its also easier to cut the knee jerks.  I'm still working on my anger issues.   Though happily this discussion seems to have gone remarkably well so far.

I find it a little peculiar that we can't nail down any specifics about vanila or D/s relationships... and its getting late so I won't have time to ponder it, which I hate.  Busy week ahead.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 5:31:07 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well to add to this, there is obviously a difference in perspective.  I joke regularly about how my mother tried to chide me for always waiting for my partner to open the door to our apartment and do all the driving.  She has her ideas of "how things are supposed to be" and in her world it's very much a "stand up for yourself and don't be dependent and everyone carries their own weight equally in all ways" sort of deal.  She doesn't "get" that by allowing him to open the door for me, I give him something special, I WAIT for him, I show that us going in as a partnership is a sweet something we do together.

I joke regularly about how "subs" tell me how sleeping on the floor is abusive, or that telling me to go sell my body is abusive.  They don't "get" the essence of the authority transfer means that those actions are not what matters, but the fulfillment we have.

So perhaps Michael means to say that what we gain in Ds-type relationships is a familiarity and OKness with the perspective of authority transfer in Ds-type relationships? 

Of course, that doesn't negate vanillas- I know vanillas who "get" me and the authority transfer far better than a lot of kinksters and Dsers do. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 5:57:11 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Of course, that doesn't negate vanillas- I know vanillas who "get" me and the authority transfer far better than a lot of kinksters and Dsers do. 

There's rub... authority transfer, or getting it, isn't unique to D/s and the "skills" for it are neither only in demand in a D/s relationship nor unique to it.  Which brings us back to Rover's points.  At this point it seems that at most we can reasonably assert that all D/s relationships require at least some degree of authority transfer, familiarity with it, and the associated skills.  We can also say (or can we) that at least some "vanilla" relationships also require some degree of authority transfer, familiarity with it, etc.

Here's the rub that immediately occurs to me on that last bit.  Can we actually say that only some vanilla relationships require authority transfer?  Do all of them?  Most of them?  Is there really such a thing as an egalitarian relationship... or is that just another PC illusion.  Twenty plus years of behavioral psychology tells me that if you put any two people in a room, one of them will eventually begin to dominate the other... its fundamental to human psychology and our behavior in groups.

All that asside, I considered whether we could say that D/s relationships are more aware of the authority transfer dynamic... and ran into the following problems.  On the face of it, that seemed true.  But I had to allow that at least some vanilla relationships also do this.  Then I had to consider how often I've seen people clumsily attempting D/s relationships because each was trying to live up to an archetype role without ever really consciously examining what they were doing, which means that at least some D/s relationships aren't all that aware.  An that left me back to a marginal (how wide is debatable) advantage to D/s relationships.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 5:58:41 PM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you Leadership for responding. Please do understand, I have spent a lot of time trying to fit me into 'Ds and BDSM'. When I met Sir, he had little experience with vanilla, and me I never heard the terms he mentioned. He kept telling me be yourself. I have never been the June Clever vanilla marriage. I did not know how to put 55 years of living into a Ds lifestyle. Not until i came to read these boards, could i start seeing i was looking at things all wrong. Also for me it takes a lot of time to grow into a relationship, and so it seemed for Sir too. We have a good growing relationship. Yes, i had to learn some basics, but i also had to learn they are our basics. I had a depth with my husband that i am forever grateful. In my life i could not accept Ds as more significant then vanilla because it would lessen what i had. That is why i posted here.  I am fortunate to have Sir and enjoy the journey we are on. There is a depth there as well. I am fortunate to have depth in both types of relationships.
oceanwynds


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 6:15:26 PM   
Rover


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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

All that asside, I considered whether we could say that D/s relationships are more aware of the authority transfer dynamic... and ran into the following problems.  On the face of it, that seemed true.  But I had to allow that at least some vanilla relationships also do this.  Then I had to consider how often I've seen people clumsily attempting D/s relationships because each was trying to live up to an archetype role without ever really consciously examining what they were doing, which means that at least some D/s relationships aren't all that aware.  An that left me back to a marginal (how wide is debatable) advantage to D/s relationships.


I think you're headed in the same direction I'm headed, Padriag.  And that is there are certain things that, on the surface, seem to be logical truths about power exchange relationships and the people in them.  But upon closer reflection, they turn out to be our own stereotypes and prejudices about ourselves.
 
Or maybe wishful thinking?
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 6:16:39 PM   
Padriag


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Status: offline 		Aye... or both.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 6:25:59 PM   
tweedydaddy


Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Vanilla and fetish are the same, only different.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/26/2008 6:33:13 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I joke regularly about how "subs" tell me how sleeping on the floor is abusive, or that telling me to go sell my body is abusive.  They don't "get" the essence of the authority transfer means that those actions are not what matters, but the fulfillment we have.

So perhaps Michael means to say that what we gain in Ds-type relationships is a familiarity and OKness with the perspective of authority transfer in Ds-type relationships? 

Of course, that doesn't negate vanillas- I know vanillas who "get" me and the authority transfer far better than a lot of kinksters and Dsers do. 


I would add that we not only have a familirity and OKness with it but we learn how to work with it as well communicate about it with a partner. 

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 3:28:46 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Here is a classic one.

Knowing how to make a woman your slut and not a slut, or how to be degrading without her feeling degraded the next day. 

I think learning to manage those  connundrums is a skill, clearly one we see mismanaged every day on the board here.  Now those are not exactly D/s skills but I think that they border on it.

Another observation, if what we do is the EXACT SAME as vanilla then we should be able to point out vanilla relationships that have the exact same sort of power/authority transfer AND with similar consent and discussion and I don't think that combination exists.  Close is not the same as exact.

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 3:59:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		No, because it's not about the actions.  To me the essential difference is that the authority transfer is the foundation/primary reason for the relationship to exist and is what fulfills those involved.

What we do IS the same, how we do it and why we do it is not.  Thus, skills are completely interchangeable.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 4:07:41 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

What we do IS the same, how we do it and why we do it is not.  Thus, skills are completely interchangeable.


I agree... what we do is the same, though the motivation may differ.  But motivation has nothing to do with skill sets.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 4:13:38 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		Exactly.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 4:53:20 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

What we do IS the same, how we do it and why we do it is not.  Thus, skills are completely interchangeable.


"how we do it and why we do it is not"  Okay, I would think you would claim that the "how" is the topping part, but you need to understand the "why" in order to know how to do the "what".

"Thus, skills are completely interchangeable."  Really?  So the day a vanilla couple decides to switch to doing D/s there is zero learning curve?  If there is any sort of learning curve, then there is a skill set that is being aquired.

Again, I don't think that skill set is huge but learning to navigate "using" a partner without using them up is very much a skill, one I think we see evidence of every day on these boards.  Now I realize the majority of what we see is the lack of basic vanilla relationship skills but not all.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 5:18:07 PM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Please bare with me, since I might be having some word confusion here. When I met Sir, I had no experience in any of the aspects of BDSM. Sir knew how to build up my pain tolerance, etc. This would be a skill that my late husband and I would have been clueless too in our sexual play. With that said, as far as Ds and power exchange we did have that in other types of sex play. So yes to know how to use a tool from the toy box takes some knowledge, but to have a power exchange does not in my mind.

oceanwynds

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 5:42:56 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Really?  So the day a vanilla couple decides to switch to doing D/s there is zero learning curve?  If there is any sort of learning curve, then there is a skill set that is being aquired.

No skill set that can't and isn't already learned in vanilla relationships (or other dynamic types).

Maybe you forget that my partner and I had a strict Ds relationship for a year before things did a big shift.  Our relationship is now vanilla based.

No one is saying you don't learn things in Ds- simply that there is no skill you learn in Ds that you can't (and many people do) learn in other dynamics.
quote:


Again, I don't think that skill set is huge but learning to navigate "using" a partner without using them up is very much a skill, one I think we see evidence of every day on these boards.  Now I realize the majority of what we see is the lack of basic vanilla relationship skills but not all.

You've got quite a few well experienced and intelligent people completely opposing this idea.  You need to either switch tactics and get some new perspectives out there so that we "get" what you mean, or just be ok with believing things most people don't.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 10/27/2008 5:43:06 PM >

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 80
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