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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/27/2008 6:22:16 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

just be ok with believing things most people don't.


LOL, I am a left wing liberal who loves guns and who gets off spanking girls.  I have pretty much spent my life believing things most people don't.

quote:

  Maybe you forget that my partner and I had a strict Ds relationship for a year before things did a big shift. 


How on earth does that matter, it wasn't your first D/s relationship and I would agree that if you can do D/s well, you could do a vanilla well.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 5:11:55 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I disagree. In any successful relationship there are times you need to put the other's needs before your own, and times when your own needs should come first. And just because you had those skills in a relationship that lasted four years doesn't mean the skills work the same in the new relationship simply because the new person's cues and signals are different than those belonging to your ex.

Of course this presumes that you were successful at acquiring those skills, and if you were, then why aren't you still with the ex?

For myself, I always need to be heard and my worries acknowledged. Which is not the same as him needing to change his decisions. But if I don't feel that he's planned for a possible problem, then forcing me to comply is never a good thing. Telling me "yes, I thought about that and now go do what I told you" is entirely different than forcing compliance. The first tells me that he is in control, the second that he is not.

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 5:26:02 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Is there a difference between building a skill set at topping, the actions that would be new and different inside a D/s relationship vs a vanilla relationship and building new relationship skills, which to a lot are exactly the same regardless of whether the relationship have an authority exchange going on or not? If you are meaning the former, i would agree that there is a learning curve, if you are meaning the latter, i'm not so sure. The skills to build a relationship, listening, empathy, making sure both or all the people in the relationship have their needs met, those exist in any good relationship regardless of the authority structure.

heartfelt

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 5:38:39 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Is there a difference between building a skill set at topping, the actions that would be new and different inside a D/s relationship vs a vanilla relationship and building new relationship skills, which to a lot are exactly the same regardless of whether the relationship have an authority exchange going on or not? If you are meaning the former, i would agree that there is a learning curve, if you are meaning the latter, i'm not so sure. The skills to build a relationship, listening, empathy, making sure both or all the people in the relationship have their needs met, those exist in any good relationship regardless of the authority structure.

heartfelt


I can speak from personal experience in saying that I learned plenty of new skill sets for Topping.  So yes, I believe the skill sets for Topping are substantially and fundamentally different than the skill sets for a relationship of any kind.
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

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(in reply to heartfeltsub)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 7:07:04 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
I can speak from personal experience in saying that I learned plenty of new skill sets for Topping.  So yes, I believe the skill sets for Topping are substantially and fundamentally different than the skill sets for a relationship of any kind.
 
John


*sighs* So after 5 pages, we got to "doms know how to use a single tail better than husbands". I wish I could figure out how that viewpoint is just so radically, fundamentally, different to my own that I cannot even begin to reconcile it.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 7:16:15 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
I can speak from personal experience in saying that I learned plenty of new skill sets for Topping.  So yes, I believe the skill sets for Topping are substantially and fundamentally different than the skill sets for a relationship of any kind.
 
John


*sighs* So after 5 pages, we got to "doms know how to use a single tail better than husbands". I wish I could figure out how that viewpoint is just so radically, fundamentally, different to my own that I cannot even begin to reconcile it.


I think you need to put aside your insecurities.............. What John said has absolutely noting to do with your comment.

Simple put.... Exercising authority in a relationship... be you the Dom, Husband, asshole etc is a certain skill set that is completely different than welding a single tail, flogger or a multitude of Topping activities.

Just because a person Tops their partner... doesn't equate to them Dominating them or excercising authority of any kind over them.  It is two seperated concepts that often co-exist but not always.


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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 7:33:26 AM   
leadership527


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Status: offline 		It wasn't so much an insecurity Knight. I'm truly vastly confused. Now I'm even more confused because I'd agree with everything you just said without hesitation. I think I should go back to plan (a) and bow out of this thread. It is clearly true that I am so out to sea on this one that no communication is happening in either direction.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 7:50:53 AM   
heartfeltsub


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Status: offline 		FR That was actually the point i was trying to make, that i see a world of difference between topping skills and relationship skills. i see them as two entirely different things. So i was trying to ask which Michael was talking about, learning topping skills, which is a different set of skills than is needed in a vanilla relationship and therefore there would be a learning curve or D/s relationship skills which i don't see as fundamentally different from relationship skills inside a "vanilla" relationship.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 8:59:04 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

It wasn't so much an insecurity Knight. I'm truly vastly confused. Now I'm even more confused because I'd agree with everything you just said without hesitation. I think I should go back to plan (a) and bow out of this thread. It is clearly true that I am so out to sea on this one that no communication is happening in either direction.


Rather than bowing out, it sounds like the kind of dicussion that you might consider diving into a little deeper.
 
On the one hand you're able to grasp the issues at hand, and have no obvious dissent with what KoM or I have said.  But on the other hand what we have said completely upsets the apple cart as it relates to the societal prejudices of, and expectations for, BDSM. 
 
Don't feel lonely, though.  Most of us have had to undergo the same transformation between what society has told us for so much of our life (like it's never right to hit a girl, or men and women should be equal and identical partners in the  ideal relationship) and the reality of B/D, S/M and power exchange relationships.
 
John

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Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:44:41 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Rather than bowing out, it sounds like the kind of dicussion that you might consider diving into a little deeper.
 
On the one hand you're able to grasp the issues at hand, and have no obvious dissent with what KoM or I have said.  But on the other hand what we have said completely upsets the apple cart as it relates to the societal prejudices of, and expectations for, BDSM. 
 
Don't feel lonely, though.  Most of us have had to undergo the same transformation between what society has told us for so much of our life (like it's never right to hit a girl, or men and women should be equal and identical partners in the  ideal relationship) and the reality of B/D, S/M and power exchange relationships.


That's not it John. I do NOT grasp the issues at hand. I don't disagree with anything that KoM said in the last post. I'm not sure I disagree with anything you've said. The only rub is that I cannot match up the statement...

"No new or enhanced relationship skills are required for the D/s dynamic above and beyond what would be needed for a vanilla couple"

...with my observed reality nor can I figure out what sort of mental box I'm stuck in to make that that statement make sense. At least from the viewpoint I'm stuck in, that statement is like trying to convince me that the sun is blue. As much as I want to acknowledge the opinions of some people I respect, I keep looking up at it and.... well... it's not blue *laughs*

I suspect that there are so many variables in play that without a coffee table chat, we could never iron out where the gaps are are at.... to whit...

a) What exactly is a vanilla relationship?
b) What do we mean when we say a D/s relationship?
c) How about those relationship skills, what are we talking about there?

In short, all possible elements of the discussion are undefined and without rolling up shirt sleeves and getting them defined, at least for the sake of this thread, then I'm going to remain lost. In addition, this conversation is one of those "not allowed within BDSM" conversations because it treads on several sacred cows. It's easier to get past those things in private where feelings don't get hurt so readily.

I did bring this up with another M/s couple we know who is also transitioning vanilla -> M/s. They shook their heads in confusion also, unable to make any sense of the above bold faced statement -- like me, they saw it as not just incorrect, but impossibly ridiculously incorrect. I have to assume that given the total failure to bridge the gap here, that there are some major underlying perceptual pieces that are missing.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:45:33 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Rover,

Lets take topping skills, the reality is, what new skills that aren't found in vanilla land do we do?  Temporary piercing, nope.  Flogging = self flagellation, impact play, what couple doesn't play with a bit of "spank and tickle"?  Endorphin or fear play, vanillas have been doing both for a long time, who doesn't want to have sex after sky diving or doing 130mph on a motorcycle?  I sure did when I was vanilla.  Lots of people do breath play, certainly the use of sex toys is common as hell, so what exactly sets "topping" aside from things you can point to somewhere in vanilla land that they do that we don't?

Now saying that, I don't actually agree with what I just wrote but trying to make a point.  There IS a skill involved in rolling all of that into one place and using it all, but what exactly?

(in reply to Rover)
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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:49:35 AM   
JustDarkness


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Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		a) What exactly is a vanilla relationship? relation outside the lifestyle between 2 humans
b) What do we mean when we say a D/s relationship? relation inside the lifestyle between 2 humans ( between a D and an s)
c) How about those relationship skills, what are we talking about there?  that what you need to make a relation succesfull (differs from relation to relation in and out the lifestyle)

mmmm that is what I would answer..nothing complex

ps..rethinking.... in vanilla life we have D and s too


< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/28/2008 9:51:30 AM >

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:52:01 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		A few more thoughts and comments.

I was ONLY talking about D/s, not about talking about topping ( I know Rover and others got that) but I want to make it clear to all.

And I don't think you can do D/s well without a very strong underpinning of vanilla relationship skills

I also don't think you can be a good top without being a good vanilla lover either

AND

I don't think doing D/s  or Topping well makes you a better person than a vanilla I simply think it is another path to happiness.  The whole point in all of this is to find your bliss, whatever it is.  Mine is having a wonderful woman who spoils me rotten because I spoil her rotten because...and the cycle continues.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 10/28/2008 9:53:32 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:54:43 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I suspect that there are so many variables in play that without a coffee table chat, we could never iron out where the gaps are are at.... to whit...


That's quite likely.  How about my place, weekend after next?  :)

quote:


a) What exactly is a vanilla relationship?
b) What do we mean when we say a D/s relationship?


For purposes of illustration, I don't believe it would be necessary to define all vanilla and power exchange relationships.  I think it would be quite enough for you to choose any two relationships you believe are representative of each.

quote:


c) How about those relationship skills, what are we talking about there?


Similarly, I don't believe you have to list all of the skills involved here.  You should be able to identify a single skill set that you believe to be unique to power exchange relationships, and not evidenced in vanilla relationships.
 
That may seem rather simple, but others were asked the same question and were unable to respond.  So, give it your best shot.  If there are different skill sets, you should be able to come up with at least one.  If you can't, then I think we'd have to agree that they don't exist.
 
Fair enough?

quote:


In addition, this conversation is one of those "not allowed within BDSM" conversations because it treads on several sacred cows. It's easier to get past those things in private where feelings don't get hurt so readily.


My only sacred cows are those I have marked for slaughter on their way to the grill.  :)

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/28/2008 9:58:52 AM >

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:58:03 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

In addition, this conversation is one of those "not allowed within BDSM" conversations because it treads on several sacred cows. It's easier to get past those things in private where feelings don't get hurt so readily.


India has sacred cows...you bought them there Rover?

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:58:25 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Rover,

Lets take topping skills, the reality is, what new skills that aren't found in vanilla land do we do?  Temporary piercing, nope.  Flogging = self flagellation, impact play, what couple doesn't play with a bit of "spank and tickle"?  Endorphin or fear play, vanillas have been doing both for a long time, who doesn't want to have sex after sky diving or doing 130mph on a motorcycle?  I sure did when I was vanilla.  Lots of people do breath play, certainly the use of sex toys is common as hell, so what exactly sets "topping" aside from things you can point to somewhere in vanilla land that they do that we don't?

Now saying that, I don't actually agree with what I just wrote but trying to make a point.  There IS a skill involved in rolling all of that into one place and using it all, but what exactly?


Michael, you're redefining the argument.  This thread began with skill sets necessary for a power exchange relationship.  And I know that you don't confuse a scene with a power exchange relationship. 
 
I have already acknowledged and stipulated to the fact that Topping requires learning new skill sets.  But Tops are not the same as Dominants, and I need not Top at all in order to dominate my partner.
 
Point is, you can't draw any conclusions about the skill sets inherent to power exchange relationships by studying the skill sets used in Topping.  They're unrelated.

 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/28/2008 10:01:30 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 10:02:22 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

India has sacred cows...you bought them there Rover?


They're well known to be the most flavorful.  :)
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 10:26:10 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I humbly disagree, as I see what I believe to be a flaw in your premise. You assume that talking and therefore communication is a skill possessed by or to a greater degree by "kinky" couples over those of their "vanilla" counterparts.

I think I see the distinction SimplyMichael is making here. Communication is a skill set that is (or should be) ubiquitous to all relationships. However, I rather doubt that vanilla relationships use the "language" of power exchange and D/s.

Communication as a broad skill is not something "kinky" couples have more of relative to "vanilla" couples. Communication using the particular argots of TPE and D/s, however, is a specific skill set that the kinksters have greater incentive to practice and master.

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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 10:53:14 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
That's quite likely.  How about my place, weekend after next?  :)
OK, you just gotta know that if you're place wasn't so damned far away from my place, I would SOOOO be there.

quote:

For purposes of illustration, I don't believe it would be necessary to define all vanilla and power exchange relationships.  I think it would be quite enough for you to choose any two relationships you believe are representative of each.
OK, I'll go ahead and speak what is in my mind.   I'll just resign myself to the inclusion police having an anneurism over this.  For me, when I struggle with this, here are the characteristics of the "vanilla" relationship, I am referring to.   For simplicity, I am referring to what we generally think of when we say "a happy marriage."  That is to say, two or more people who are tightly bound together with the expectation (and even likelihood) that this is "till death do us part".  In other words, I am ruling out relationships with no pretense of "long term" in them since, frankly, you can do anything you want for up to about 2 years or so.  In addition, I am referring to what we would generally call a "happy" marriage.  It is the requirement for long-term stability and happiness that starts to lay down some basic "gotta haves" in a relationship.  So specifically, the two couples I am looking at closely on this both had about 15 year long marriages that were happy and showing signs of going the distance.
 
For the D/s side, I am referring to a similar sort of thing, but now with a TPE-ish sort of power dynamic.  And just to clarify that, yes, I am talking about the right to command ANY part whatsoever of the sub's life constrained only by the need for long-term happiness -- voting, circle of friends, allowable communications, dress code, weight -- everything.  I go to M/s only because I think it highlights the point being so extreme.  I think the same things happen with more constrained forms of D/s in proportionally smaller amounts.  I think this would be true so long as there was any actual authority transferred at all.  *
quote:

Similarly, I don't believe you have to list all of the skills involved here.  You should be able to identify a single skill set that you believe to be unique to power exchange relationships, and not evidenced in vanilla relationships.
Trusting your partner.  I believe that the requirements for trusting my partner are VASTLY greater in our new M/s dynamic than they were in the vanilla one.  And just so you can see clearly where we started at, my wife and I used to make "anything" bets to each other.  Yup, just like it sounds like, loser does literally anything.  Right there, that is more trust than almost all vanilla couples.  Or, at least, the vanilla couples that I have talked to thought it was varying types of insane.  (and as a humorous aside, my wife is currently up one "anything", which means that I can say to people who fear that she may be being oppressed that she could swap the collar in a heartbeat if she felt like it.  Yup, she could, if she chose, use her anything to collar me and I would honor it.)  So as you can see, we in fact DID start with fairly high levels of trust.  But that trust was nowhere near what is required for her to allow me to not just dictate how she acts and what she does, but also how she thinks and how she perceives the world at a very fundamental level.

quote:


In addition, this conversation is one of those "not allowed within BDSM" conversations because it treads on several sacred cows. It's easier to get past those things in private where feelings don't get hurt so readily.

Nope, not your feelings John.  But I'm going to be really surprised if the inclusion police don't start ripping apart this post because I have... you know... constrained the example and so necessarily excluded some people.  And god forbid that we might actually get to a conclusion like, "In certain places, for certain people, thing x is better than thing y."  Honestly, I'd expect the BDSM helicopters to be circling my house within 10 minutes. 

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 11:40:29 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Hello leadership

If you had an egalitarian relationship before and an M/s one now, you have changed the 'model' of your relationship. The way you approach this 'different way of relating' to each other will take getting used to, but you will be doing it with the exact same skill sets that you had when you made your relationship in the first instance.

If my relationship changed to one without the authority aspect, it would take me a while to get used to that, too as it has always BEEN an authority based one.

What is the 'inclusion police'?.....lol

Regards , agirl

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 100
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