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RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 6:37:34 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
the ability to compromise (negotiate),

Negotiation.... now that is a skill I don't have... In fact... when there is any negotiation to purchase anything... I send Alandra in to do the haggling... I can't be bothered... I am like my Dad... Give me your best price! if it's good I will buy it.. if not ... I will move on. I am the same sort in my intimate relationships with the girls. I will not negotiate. I will listen to what they have to say... and I will simply decide what is Best for the relationship. Take all the available information in... and make the best decision possible.... I hate to negotiate.

I suspect that those who have a power sharing arangement.. negotiation might be a very important skill to develop. for myself in a relationship of Total Authority... It is not a skill I need or even care to develop. I am more concern of developing skills of get me the information I need effectively to make the best decision possible. Managing Information is a key component in making effective decisions in my world... it's a skill that I work on improving.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 121

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 8:12:52 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Trust not as developed in vanilla relationships? Nah, I'm just not buying it.

Reading leadership's posts, I would say that he isn't making a generalization or attempting to imply that a lack of trust exists in vanilla relationships, but rather that there is a higher level of trust required to make a power dynamic function properly without failure that isn't necessarily required for a stable and happy long term vanilla relationships.

Hence, him and his wife were pushed to develop more trust that wasn't previously there because of the power dynamic.

Can that level of trust be achieved via other methods? Sure. But in the definitions of D/S and vanilla that leadership provided, one requires a higher investment that isn't neccessarily required in the other.

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(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 122

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 9:23:03 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I think I see the distinction SimplyMichael is making here. Communication is a skill set that is (or should be) ubiquitous to all relationships. However, I rather doubt that vanilla relationships use the "language" of power exchange and D/s.

Nor do psychologists use the same language as physists- what you're talking about is the cultural phenomenon of jargon. That's not a skill, simply a coincidence of socializing.

And I was very glad we've mostly managed to keep kinky play divorced from relationship dynamics.

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Post #: 123

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 10:00:06 PM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So people can keep on and on about how seperate vanilla is from BDSM, they can fool themselves into thinking it's entirely seperate - but it isn't - it's just different
the.dark.

If it is different, then isn't it, well different?

I mean, if it was all well and good and completely the same, what is the learning curve that we see couples go through? What exactly is it that trips them up? Is it simply that they are perfectly capable of doing vanilla (and thus by the consensus D/s) but are tripped up by fantasies that must be ripped away to get back to vanilla? Is that really all that is going on? While I think there is actually a lot of truth in that I just don't think it explains everything, I still think there is something there.

Remember, a lot of you arguing against me on this have spent a LONG time from the point where you hadn't been exposed to D/s, your learning curve is well behind you.

Again, for the record, if I had a choice between a pill that gave me perfect vanilla skills and one that would give me perfect D/s skills, I would take the one that gave me perfect vanilla skills. Frankly, it is my vanilla relationship skills that won BSB's heart, I mean she likes my pervert side but without the vanilla emotional safety and security I have created, she would never have let me into her heart to play with the D/s. So please don't take any of this as a "D/s is better" tirade because it isn't.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 124

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 10:05:10 PM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Nor do psychologists use the same language as physicists- what you're talking about is the cultural phenomenon of jargon. That's not a skill, simply a coincidence of socializing.

There are two types of jargon, one is simply another word for the same thing but the other is a name for either a new thing or a finer more descriptive language. I would think that if you need a finer more descriptive language, you are dealing with something on a finer more detailed level. Perhaps this is all semantics but while we all play with snow, people who have one word as opposed to twenty have a different understanding and must have the skills to recognize those twenty different types of snow.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 125

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/28/2008 10:08:19 PM

BitaTruble

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~FR~

I admit I skimmed through most of the posts, so if this has been brought up already I missed it and I apologize in advance for the redundancy.

I think the fundamental skill set that is required is to learn to recognize, acknowledge then accept authority in a D/s dynamic. Non-power based relationships may have one party in the relationship who, generally, has the final say, but because such authority is not recognized, acknowledged and accepted by the parties, there exists the possibility that on any given day, at any given time, the pendulum can swing and the other partner will wield the authority on an issue. In the relationship I share with Himself, I have a lot of autonomy .. autonomy which may be taken away at his whim. That sort of power useage can lead to dismay, anger .. even a break-up if used arbitrarily in a relationship which is not based on an authority dynamic.

"Because I said so" (though seldom used) is part of our power dynamic .. I'm thinking that probably doesn't fly too well in other sorts of relationships or maybe even in alot of other D/s relationships.

_____________________________

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 126

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 5:15:55 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So people can keep on and on about how seperate vanilla is from BDSM, they can fool themselves into thinking it's entirely seperate - but it isn't - it's just different
the.dark.

If it is different, then isn't it, well different?

I mean, if it was all well and good and completely the same, what is the learning curve that we see couples go through? What exactly is it that trips them up? Is it simply that they are perfectly capable of doing vanilla (and thus by the consensus D/s) but are tripped up by fantasies that must be ripped away to get back to vanilla? Is that really all that is going on? While I think there is actually a lot of truth in that I just don't think it explains everything, I still think there is something there.

Remember, a lot of you arguing against me on this have spent a LONG time from the point where you hadn't been exposed to D/s, your learning curve is well behind you.

Wanted to comment on both portions that i highlighted. From a submissive standpoint one of the skills that makes a D/s relationship work is actually letting go of authority. Because of the fact that i have been submissive all my life and even in my marriage, which would now be considered vanilla, i submitted to my husband not only because it is in my nature to submit, but also because i believe there is a Biblical mandate for wives to submit to their husbands, it was not something that i even thought about until Michael's question.

However now that i think about it, i have watched many of my submissive friends struggle with actually ceding authority, allowing their Dominants to actually make the decisions. More often than not i watch them snatch the decision out of their Dominants hands by either not telling Him or Her everything that is going on or by making the decision without giving a thought to the fact that that decision is now really Someone else's to make. In conjunction with that, not fighting every decision when it is not the decision that we wish had been made, actually submitting, if that makes any sense.

While i think that most of the skills needed to have a good D/s relationship are some of the same skills that are needed in a vanilla relationship (listening, caring, putting other's needs ahead of our own), i think that the skill that i just mentioned is one that is fairly unique to a D/s relationship and a place where i see a lot of new submissives struggle.

heartfelt

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 127

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 6:29:24 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

If it is different, then isn't it, well different?

Different, but not seperate - and only in the way that every single relationship is different regardless of whether it is what people define it as - Ds or this so called vanilla that people keep on about. The bottom line is that all relationships come from a core thing - human beings. Just as snowflakes are all made from the same composition but are unique.

I would sincerely like to see these so called skill sets that are supposedly different between them. A few people have asked - no one has responded.

quote:

I mean, if it was all well and good and completely the same, what is the learning curve that we see couples go through? What exactly is it that trips them up? Is it simply that they are perfectly capable of doing vanilla (and thus by the consensus D/s) but are tripped up by fantasies that must be ripped away to get back to vanilla? Is that really all that is going on? While I think there is actually a lot of truth in that I just don't think it explains everything, I still think there is something there.

I do not see any difficulties that people go through any different in Ds than they do in so called vanilla. Again, if someone can show me and list some, I would be interested.

quote:

Remember, a lot of you arguing against me on this have spent a LONG time from the point where you hadn't been exposed to D/s, your learning curve is well behind you.

I would be highly suspicious of anyone who believed that their learning curve is behind them and not a part of the now.

quote:

Again, for the record, if I had a choice between a pill that gave me perfect vanilla skills and one that would give me perfect D/s skills, I would take the one that gave me perfect vanilla skills. Frankly, it is my vanilla relationship skills that won BSB's heart, I mean she likes my pervert side but without the vanilla emotional safety and security I have created, she would never have let me into her heart to play with the D/s. So please don't take any of this as a "D/s is better" tirade because it isn't.

I don't see any tirade or better than attitude, but I do find it incredibly amazing that people still try and seperate their lives into neat little boxes. Your so called vanilla skills aren't vanilla - they are your personal skills that you have. Why give credit to the fact that you see them as being 'vanilla' instead of giving the credit to yourself? What is so difficult for people to pat themselveson the back and say'I have these skills and I rock at them because I am me'.... not 'because I am vanilla' or 'because I am a dominant'..... but 'because I am a fantastic human being and me'?

The more I am reading this and the more I am reading the responses, the more I am seeing that this isn't a relationship issue, but a personal, self esteem one. Actually I am amending this. I don't think that it's self esteem in the sense of having none, but having to have a reason behind something that rocks.(Not sure if I am explaining that entirely well).

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/29/2008 6:31:38 AM >

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 128

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 6:36:10 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I have been very proud of this thread because if nothing else some very VERY opinionated SOBs have been very civil. I think we had a small misunderstanding, those things happen, but I think we can get back to the heart of the matter.

Yup, its been interesting to read. I wish my current schedule allowed me time to participate more, I feel I'm missing out on some of the fun. I'm glad others have continued with it and continued to examine things rather than simply argue their own perspectives.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 129

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 7:10:53 AM

CreativeDominant

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Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
the ability to compromise (negotiate),

Negotiation.... now that is a skill I don't have... In fact... when there is any negotiation to purchase anything... I send Alandra in to do the haggling... I can't be bothered... I am like my Dad... Give me your best price! if it's good I will buy it.. if not ... I will move on. I am the same sort in my intimate relationships with the girls. I will not negotiate. I will listen to what they have to say... and I will simply decide what is Best for the relationship. Take all the available information in... and make the best decision possible.... I hate to negotiate.

For the most part, so do I. That being said, I have found in the beginning of each D/s dynamic I have been involved in that negotiation was occurring. For me, it has always been more along the lines of a conversation that went something like this: submissive---"How do you feel about allowing me to do this?" Me---"I feel such and such soooooooo yes/no/depends on each circumstance" as an example. Once the dynamic was agreed to and entered into, then there was no ongoing negotiation. There was always the missteps and the forks in the road but we went by what we'd agreed to...not blindly and not without room to step back BUT with me having the final say once the dynamic had been entered into. For me personally, about every 4 mos. in the first year of these dynamics, I sat down with my submissive and we opened up discussion regarding the dynamic and what could be changed, what should not be changed, what could be improved on and what was there that made either or both of us say "Hell yes, let's keep doing that because Damnnn!!!! we got that REALLY right".

quote:

I suspect that those who have a power sharing arangement.. negotiation might be a very important skill to develop. for myself in a relationship of Total Authority... It is not a skill I need or even care to develop. I am more concern of developing skills of get me the information I need effectively to make the best decision possible. Managing Information is a key component in making effective decisions in my world... it's a skill that I work on improving.

I do feel negotiation is an important skill/tool to have. I also feel that acquiring information and then processing and managing that information is important. Would you agree Knight that the next step...Implementation, based on the information and processing of it, into the dynamic...is also an important skill to have?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 130

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 7:30:21 AM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
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Part of the difficulty in discussing this is that couple X and couple Y both think they are doing act R but in fact, only one or perhaps neither are actually doing act R.

Heartfeltsub's post gave me a thought.

Lets take two very interrelated acts, skateboarding and nowboarding. Both involve much the same thing, balance, steering, etc, but the reality is doing well at one does not guarantee success at the other. True, most of the skills are transferable, but there are some unique things to both.

quote:

However now that i think about it, i have watched many of my submissive friends struggle with actually ceding authority, allowing their Dominants to actually make the decisions. More often than not i watch them snatch the decision out of their Dominants hands by either not telling Him or Her everything that is going on or by making the decision without giving a thought to the fact that that decision is now really Someone else's to make. In conjunction with that, not fighting every decision when it is not the decision that we wish had been made, actually submitting, if that makes any sense.

Sure vanilla couples cede authority to each other but rarely with such finality (real or imagined) and learning how to either let go or to take up the reins in the context of a D/s relationship is, at the very least, a challenging vanilla skill clearly few have or it is marginally different enough that it is a unique skill.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 131

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 7:33:23 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

"Because I said so" (though seldom used) is part of our power dynamic .. I'm thinking that probably doesn't fly too well in other sorts of relationships or maybe even in alot of other D/s relationships.

Because I said so...well..I even like that at work. I hate when people leave it in the middle what they want. I prefer to hear a decision.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 132

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 7:40:22 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Once the dynamic was agreed to and entered into, then there was no ongoing negotiation.

this is where we differ to a degree... there was no negotiation to agree on the specific dynamic that we entere into. It was more.. this me... take me or leave me... but this is me! Rather than a negotiation.. it was more due diligence needed to done so that kyra could make an informed decision with regards to what she was getting into. Alandra was somewhat different that it was a slower progress in me exercising my authority in the dynamic... but again it wasn't a negotiation.. it was me finding out what was important to me and what wasn't. The due diligence was more an introspective journey that slowly manifested outward into choices.

quote:

I do feel negotiation is an important skill/tool to have. I also feel that acquiring information and then processing and managing that information is important. Would you agree Knight that the next step...Implementation, based on the information and processing of it, into the dynamic...is also an important skill to have?

I completely agree with this... Implementing is indeed very important. I can become aware of my desires and wants to the extreme... but being able to realize them leads one to implementation... and from experience... implementing is not as easy as one may think.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 10/29/2008 7:44:24 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 133

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 7:45:00 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

"Because I said so" (though seldom used) is part of our power dynamic .. I'm thinking that probably doesn't fly too well in other sorts of relationships or maybe even in alot of other D/s relationships.

Because I said so...well..I even like that at work. I hate when people leave it in the middle what they want. I prefer to hear a decision.

I employ the same dynamic, but try not to use the same verbage.

Generally, I've found that "because that's what I prefer" or "that's what makes me happy" better conveys the reality of the situation, and has resulted in better "buy in" (ie: understanding why I made a decision and feeling a part of implementing it) from my girl.

John

_____________________________

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(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 134

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 7:49:41 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Trust not as developed in vanilla relationships? Nah, I'm just not buying it.

Reading leadership's posts, I would say that he isn't making a generalization or attempting to imply that a lack of trust exists in vanilla relationships, but rather that there is a higher level of trust required to make a power dynamic function properly without failure that isn't necessarily required for a stable and happy long term vanilla relationships.

Hence, him and his wife were pushed to develop more trust that wasn't previously there because of the power dynamic.

Can that level of trust be achieved via other methods? Sure. But in the definitions of D/S and vanilla that leadership provided, one requires a higher investment that isn't neccessarily required in the other.

I feel the same way that leadership has described and have said so only a few times on the boards here.
It gets exhausting having to defend a position sometimes which is why I've stayed out of this thread til now.

For me ohboy yes there is a significant difference between the two. If there weren't any difference at all then there would not be different 'labels'.

It kind of amuses me to watch people insist that every relationship is the same no matter what, then in other threads they seem to swing in the opposite direction with advice that is tailored to a D/s relationship because it is different.

_____________________________

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Post #: 135

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 7:53:05 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I think the fundamental skill set that is required is to learn to recognize, acknowledge then accept authority in a D/s dynamic.

There are many that struggle with this within the D/s community... some adapt rather quickly and some take some time to get over some of the upbring and social norms that they are raised with. It is indeed a skill in my view.

Alandra grewup with her Grandmother being a fundamental influence on her.. she is submissive to her husband in all ways. Alandra evolve into seeing that as the way that a woman interacting with her husband. For her... going into a d/s dynamic was comfortable and normal. For Kyra... her mother was much different and more a Dominant in the family... Trying to be like her mother was stressful and often lead her down paths that lacked happiness for her. It wasn't until she broke away from that mindset that she started to find happiness in relationhip with me. One that is very contrary to what her mom was nuturing her towards. Even though, Kyra became aware of what gave her happiness.. she had a few things to overcome and even disgard. These are skills that she had to develop.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 136

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 8:07:58 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
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quote:

Sure vanilla couples cede authority to each other but rarely with such finality (real or imagined) and learning how to either let go or to take up the reins in the context of a D/s relationship is, at the very least, a challenging vanilla skill clearly few have or it is marginally different enough that it is a unique skill.

It is not a unique skill or a skill of any kind for that matter. What is unique is the human motivations and needs and wants that accompany an agreed structured dynamic. It may in fact be more difficult not to cede authority in a vanilla relationship than to cede authority in a D/s relationship, but in any event it would still not be a skill.

What is fascinating here, and this is something Dark alluded to, there seems to be a need by some to make of this dynamic more than it is. There are people who need everything they do to be something special, which is fine, the problem is when they need us to feel the same way. The dynamic is special because it is unique to you and your partner, if it makes you feel better to think of it as requiring skill sets than that is fine, but you should understand that to an outsider it is nothing more than two people relating in a way that only they can.

It is simply a matter of being. Why is that not enough?

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 137

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 8:08:52 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Your post about your parents was insulting, both to you and me and effectively terminated any real discussion here.

I certainly do not feel insulted by it... it was rather heart felt and I had presumed that in sharing it you could appreciate the kind of relationship my parents are blessed to have (you and Carol seem to be similarly blessed). But if that's the way you feel, you're right... discussion has terminated.

John

I think you parents sitaution was a great example of trust.. not unlike my own parents.. in fact.. one year my parents figured out that Dad spent a whole 2 weeks in his own bed. They been together since 63 and it will be death that will seperate them. Even now... the two of them are out east. The went to be with my Dad's older brother who past away last Saturday. Trust is a very important factor in successful relationships and so is commitment to that relationship. Congrats to your parent's 50th... hope you have a grand party to celebrate.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 138

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 8:10:24 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

It is simply a matter of being. Why is that not enough?

anyone can just be... but to do it well takes skill.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 139

RE: Vanilla and D/s - 10/29/2008 8:12:28 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

nyone can just be... but to do it well takes skill

Interesting, I would have said it takes heart and soul.

Anything but skill.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 140

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