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Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:03:34 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		I'm fairly boring. Really. I don't do exciting things, go to exciting places, meet interesting people (with a few exceptions...) I don't even drink, and when given red tins of coke go hyper like children with ADHD on old fashioned blue smarties. Perhaps I should remove the "fairly" from that opening statement.

I'm also pretty "Middle England". I make cakes from first principles, have a litany of baking disaster stories for telling over home cooked dinners, go to church, sing in the choir, went to a "good" school, forgot to play truant, drive at 30, and were I to read a paper, it would probably be The Times.

Being boring, and pretty typically "middle england" in many of my characteristics, I'm not used to being out of sync culturally speaking.
Certainly, I have been to places where I was culturally different. Arabia being an example. But, these are a minority of occasions, and I have usually had a pretty decent grasp of the culture I should be fitting in with.

So, I'm not particularly ready for knowing how to go about explaining (and educating?) the cultural differences between me and the rest of the people in group.

An issue came up on Friday. I said I would be going to a club, would explain my head space to my friends who would be there, and they would help take responsibility for my safety whilst I was in the club, so I was not forced into situations where I was doing things to upset/hurt/harm me.

One resident commented, immediatly, that she was unsure as to why I was letting other people take responsibility for my safety, and why I was choosing to do that rather than taking that responsibility myself. She felt it unhealthy that I be delegating responsibility in this way.

To me, the answer as to the "why" of doing it was really hard to find. That I would be looked out for in a club by friends is second nature. This is before we get to the idea of my choosing to put my safety in the hands of a top, and that person being not-just-anyone but someone with whom I have a trusting relationship, and backed up by the public environment giving extra security to my well-being.

Why do I let other people take responsibility for my safety? Because I'm submissive, its as natural to me as breathing. Because that is just the way that this community works. Because its not just anyone who is taking that responsibility. A million and one reasons that I can see now, that I couldn't see then, and that I have no idea how to explain across a cultural divide that stresses empowerment, autonomy, self agency and all those other good therapy "buzz words".

This is not the first time this issue has come up. When talking about interpersonal relationships, I have a growing feeling that myself and the group are singing from different song sheets, they perceive problems where I see "natural kink behaviour", they misrepresent probelems, inflate problems, and, on the flip side, I have problems that I can't effectivly communicate with them, things that are issues for me but that are not perceived that way.

I am not sure how to go about dealing with this. I have been very clear that I am in therapy to deal with issues, and that I am more than just my kink. As a group we have already fallen into the trap of talking about my kink, because that is interesting and exciting, and ignoring other things, like, the fact that I have been raped. I don't want, therefore, to sit in a meeting and have to use the "oh, that's just a D/s cultural quirk" or "that's the way the kink community functions" as a way to explain all the differences.

Equally, I'm not sure what the point of writing this is. Normally by now, I've had some kind of idea as to a possible resolution. Or some kind of clarity of thought. Or *something*. What I am left with, right now, though, is just the question that I still can't answer.

How do I explain the cultural differences so that I can continue to work productivly with the group, without having the whole focus of my work revolve around those cultural differences and the critique thereof?

Answers on a post-card, oh many people who read these things *smiles*
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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:14:15 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Offline I tend to be the king of analogies (at least I'm king of something).  So I'll resort to an analogy here.
 
No one would think twice about someone who intended to go out drinking and asked their friends to look out for them since the drinking would alter their state of mind... that being drunk does not always lend itself to good decision making, and we should be grateful to have friends who can look out for us in those situations.  In fact, one might conclude that, rather than being irresponsible, it's quite the responsible thing to do.
 
Now I don't see any meaningful difference between the altered state of mind one might experience from drinking, or from bottoming (ie: subspace).  Some folks who achieve subspace aren't very affected by it, but others have a prolonged and distinct inability to process much of the world around them for a period of time.  If you are one of those people (and I sense that may be the case) then I think it's quite responsible of you to make sure your friends are aware that you might not be in the best frame of mind to make decisions for yourself, and to enlist their help to lessen (not eliminate) the risk. 
 
Of course, that's just my opinion.\
 
John

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:18:30 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		What "group" are you referring to? Is this work-related? Therapy-related? A personal social circle? Scene/lifestyle-related?

quote:

I have no idea how to explain across a cultural divide that stresses empowerment, autonomy, self agency and all those other good therapy "buzz words".

This jumped out at me. There have been a few discussions here about the commonplace propensity for people to falsely equate 'equality' with 'empowerment' (and the example you provided seemed like a prime example of the reverse gender discrimination that has spawned from it).

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. 'Explaining' such things to people who have misconstrued the basis of personal freedom is not an endeavor likely to be fruitful. And since I'm not sure what interactive dynamic you're facing, the question of how to deal with these people in a way that will cause the least amount of irritation isn't one that can be fleshed out.


_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:22:25 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not sure I get your post, I was drawn in by the cultural differences and because due to my job sort of lived all over the globe and found the BDSM cultures quite different in different places, but that's another story and has little to do with your post.

I could be completely wrong here and I'm just shooting from the hip, I don't mean to attack you at all, but it does seem that you are hiding a bit behind your submissiveness? The way you say that it is 2nd nature to you to let others take care of you and protect you because you are submissive, it doesn't really ring true, I'm not calling you a liar but it simply doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think you are submissive to everybody, so why would you trust everybody? Wouldn't it make more sense to trust your top after he or she has earned your trust?

I hope I'm not getting too personal here (I am trying to understand and I am guessing) but it seems you have self-esteem problems and would rather trust others than yourself. As a submissive you have exactly the same worth as a dominant, hey, without submissives all dominants would be frustrated or abusers, so there... Don't you think you need to take responsibility for yourself a bit more, not in a huge jump but step by step, because if you value yourself more, somebody might value your submission more?

Again, please do not understand it as an attack, it's just a gut feeling I had when I read your post.

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:33:22 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		by "group" Ivy is talking about a therapy group - and i understand your problem. I was in therapy when i discovered my submission, and though kink friendly, he didn't understand the depth of my (then new) relationship with my Sir. I think he thought it was just a play thing, and when he discovered how i was living ie asking permission to go to the toilet, he was a  little non-plused. (?)

I'm not sure how to convey the difference in relationships between vanilla and your situation.  Johns analogue is a good idea though.

I would have to wonder about your group leader - can they not get things away from the nuts and bolts of your lifestyle and address emotional issues for you.  Or are they as interested in how you live your life as the group is?  Perhapes you need to give the group homework  - to research bdsm lifestyles, so they can get past the weirdness of this lifestyle.

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:36:16 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

To me, the answer as to the "why" of doing it was really hard to find.

I suspect for the same reason she would have to stop for a moment to answer if you asked: "Why do you cut your hair the way you do?"




_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:49:42 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

What "group" are you referring to? Is this work-related? Therapy-related? A personal social circle? Scene/lifestyle-related?
It is a therapeutic community, for people with "personality disorders".

quote:

quote:

I have no idea how to explain across a cultural divide that stresses empowerment, autonomy, self agency and all those other good therapy "buzz words".

This jumped out at me. There have been a few discussions here about the commonplace propensity for people to falsely equate 'equality' with 'empowerment' (and the example you provided seemed like a prime example of the reverse gender discrimination that has spawned from it).

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. 'Explaining' such things to people who have misconstrued the basis of personal freedom is not an endeavor likely to be fruitful. And since I'm not sure what interactive dynamic you're facing, the question of how to deal with these people in a way that will cause the least amount of irritation isn't one that can be fleshed out.

The group believe in personal agency, empowering individuals in their own lives and similar ideas.  They don't understand the idea that submission can be just as freeing as being in control.

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 2:57:40 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Perhaps I misunderstood the OP...
 
If you're talking about how to explain the relationship between submission and personal responsibility, I would want to touch upon the following issues:
 
1.  Being submissive in a relationship means that you retain the ultimate responsibility in your relationship by virture of your ability to say "no", and your responsibility to say "no" when situations dictate that you do.
 
2.  Do not confuse compatibility with irresponsibility (ie: just because your objectives in a relationship are the same, does not mean that you're no longer responsible for yourself).
 
3.  I don't believe that it's possible to be a "good" (relative term) submissive/slave in many (do not read that as "all") power exchange relationships if you are not responsible.  What point is there in training anyone (whether it be in a relationship or an employment) if they are not responsible enough to hold up their end of the bargain?
 
4.  There is nothing irresponsible about recognizing a relationship dynamic that works for you, personally.  What would be irresponsible would be to succumb to group pressure and settle for what other people believe *should* be right for you.
 
5.  Personal empowerment means that you should be allowed to make decisions for yourself... like deciding what kind of relationship dynamic works for you.  There's nothing personally empowering about saying that "you can choose for yourself, so long as you choose this" (this being the "norm").
 
Those are a few quick thoughts that came to mind.  I can go further if you like.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/27/2008 2:59:31 PM >

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:01:41 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I guess the point that I cued on most was your placing your trust in your friends to look out for you.  Someone took issue with that.  I don't know you or your personal boundaries or the appropriateness there-of (Hell, I am not always sure of my own but I always strive for awareness and good intent) but if they are close and proven friends, I see no prolem in placing your trust in them; that's what friends should do: look out for one another, take care of one another, etc., imo.  Now, them being responsible for you, hmmmm, that feels a little different than the idea of trusting them.  It would seem to put the blame on them if something bad happened or absolve you from personal responsibility if things didn't go as you wished.  Not sure. 
If I am in a club with friends, I have their backs.  Even when they're wrong. Example: My ex- and his, at the time gf (Her husband was at home with the kids; he didn't want to see the show we were going to anyway), and I went to see Danzig at a Jersey club.  Now, I've been to a lot of rough shows but that Jersey crowd was more rough than any I've been a part of, which is saying a lot based on 20 years of concert-going.  After two guys repeatedly and with much force bashed into the gf and I and made a mad rush in front of us (Rude behavior even at a metal show, ime and imo) and started slamming into everyone around them again, I planted my boot in the one's back that hit her the hardest because he'd hurt her.  He noticed and turned around.  I told him to cut it out.  He seemed to understand.  Concert etiquette appropriate, imo and ime.  A few minutes later, elbows are going and they're at it again.  They were drunk, perhaps more.  Again, concert adept here who understands that if you're in the thick of it, you're gonna get and dish some physicality but this was beyond reasonable.  I threw a couple of fists and kicks back as a reminder.  It seemed to de-escalate.  Gf taps the one that I hadn't spoken to on the shoulder and essentially threatens his life.  I read her lips (Couldn't hear anything at that point except the music) and thought, "Oh,f*ck!"  The ex- was at his oblivious, unprotective best here: he had no clue that this was going on with either of 'his women'.  Thankfully, the guy didn't take her seriously and what could have gotten really bad really fast was diffused when he laughed off this small butch chick that was threatening him.  Would I have had her back if he'd decided she was serious and needed to be schooled based on her response.  Yup.  Did I think threatening him was an excessive escalation, yep.  I dished equivalent to what was thrown but she amped it up a notch that could have kicked things over the edge.  Still, had it gotten bad, I'd have jumped in and protected what was at that time, my friend.  I'm rather on the extreme end of things as far as protectiveness goes(Think mother bear with her cubs and that's pretty much how I relate regarding me or mine being threatened; and, I admit, even if a female I am with is larger than me or supposedly knows how to fight, if she's with me, I automatically view her as under my protection, perhaps weird but true) but I still, after that rambling story and thinking about what you stated, don't think that expecting your friends to have your back or lookout for you was out of line. Taking responsibility for, hmmm, maybe depending on what you mean.  But, even still, if you were my friend and you messed up, I'd have your back while we were in the thick of it, then tell you you were an a**hat sometime when we could speak among ourselves after the threat had passed.  Not sure if that's at all what you were talking about or helps, but I gave it a try.  :>
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 10/27/2008 3:02:17 PM >

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:01:53 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I could be completely wrong here and I'm just shooting from the hip, I don't mean to attack you at all, but it does seem that you are hiding a bit behind your submissiveness?
I think this is because I'm not explaining myself clearly.  In the situation I was referring to, of letting other people take care of my safety, I was thinking specifically of a club environment, where I would go out, and my friends would help to ensure that I did not receive unwanted attention from other clubbers.  In a similar vein, when I play, I give my top control and responsibility over my  safety, this is backed up by the other people in the club, the sense of community, and the need to preserve a "reputation" so you can play with others in future.

quote:

The way you say that it is 2nd nature to you to let others take care of you and protect you because you are submissive, it doesn't really ring true, I'm not calling you a liar but it simply doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think you are submissive to everybody, so why would you trust everybody? Wouldn't it make more sense to trust your top after he or she has earned your trust?
I do mean that the people I have chosen to trust, I trust implicitly.  It's a very short list of people I would trust in a one-on-one set up.  It is a longer list when in public, with friends around, there are more people so I don't have to trust one individual as much.  But, when with people I feel comforable with, it is second nature to sit back and let them direct and control.  I feel uncomfortable in positions where I have to take charge of a situation (a whole other issue in group, but let's stay focused).  Whilst I may now *submit* to everyone, I would be far more comfortable to be *submissive* to them.

quote:

I hope I'm not getting too personal here (I am trying to understand and I am guessing) but it seems you have self-esteem problems and would rather trust others than yourself
I have trust issues, and so, trust myself more than others, I even don't trust my judgement to trust other people all the time.  You're right about the self-view issues though.  And they are part of why I am in therapy.

quote:

As a submissive you have exactly the same worth as a dominant, hey, without submissives all dominants would be frustrated or abusers, so there... Don't you think you need to take responsibility for yourself a bit more, not in a huge jump but step by step, because if you value yourself more, somebody might value your submission more?
I am *always* responsible for my safety, even if the way I choose to exercise that responsibility is to sign it over to someone else for a while.

I am slowly working on the "I deserve to be treated like a person" mindset, I'm getting there, "I deserve better" is my new mantra *smiles*

quote:

Again, please do not understand it as an attack, it's just a gut feeling I had when I read your post.
Understood, and thank you.

< Message edited by IvyMorgan -- 10/27/2008 3:11:09 PM >

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:05:02 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I too think that in a bdsm relationship, the sub doesn't abjucate responsibility to the dom, she allows him to have that power. Perhapes you could point out to your group that you aren't putting responsibility for yourself on someone else - you retain responsibility for your self, you are giving someone power over yourself with a clause to revoke that right at any time.

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:18:48 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for explaining, without knowing your background I was quite puzzled, it's much clearer now.

Maybe your new mantra will (hopefully) be one day "I deserve the best, is that person good enough for me!"

It possibly might not help you much, but I struggled a lot to come to terms with myself it went against the grain of the "traditional" image of how a woman should be, it wasn't a massive break through but slowly step by step. Don't try to run before you can walk ;)
If you go out with friends and they look out for you, let them have your back but also try to stand up for yourself (you got them as backup) and tell a person flat out NO if you are not interested, you definitely deserve to speak your mind and for others to respect your decisions!

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:22:52 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Upon your greater elucidation, I agree with what Lady Constanze said most whole-heartedly regarding your self-efficacy, right of refusal, etc. 
  Davan

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:28:12 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		Which is great, but, doesn't help me explain the kink culture to the group.

I do agree I need to be more assertive with personal boundaries.  It's top of the to-do list.

But, right now, we're still bang in the middle of "getting flogged by my partner is self harm" and "going to a club is putting myself at risk" and other similar thoughts.  And I have no idea how to educate them out of it.

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:35:32 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		You may not be able to get a group that is focused on people getting to the point of confident self reliance to understand your D/s balance. Its far different explaining/convincing a single friend that you aren't self harming with your lifestyle than it is trying to do that with a group hyper aware of psychological behavior.

While I understand that being submissive is an interegal (crap spelling) part of your personality, why do they need to know the exact details such as getting flogged by your partner? Personally in that sort of group dynamic I would want to be a bit more compartmentalized. Yes therapy should be open and honest, but sometimes personal limits have to be placed.


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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:41:30 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, Ivy----
Sit them down and talk about it. 
I tried to give my ex- "Radical Ecstasy" by Dossie Easton and her partner.  A bit extreme in places but good explanations of various aspects of D/s needs. 
Getting flogged by your partner is harm at the hands of another but if it's with your consent then, it's all good.  Acknowledging, of course, that there could be some less than fuzzy psychological underlayment that may make it not the best practice for you but I don't know enough to make that assertion and I am a huge fan of transmuting negatives into positives in the ways that resonate most with you. 
Have you been harmed in public venues previously?  What is the beef from the partners with taking things outside? 
Is it lack ofeducation or history or both or other things? 
  Davan

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:43:18 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

And I have no idea how to educate them out of it.

You can't. I do see your dilemma, though. Your very form of self-image freedom is tied to a series of acts that are painted by most as being specifically self-defeating to the therapy-based mentality of personal dependence.

Even any openly initiated discussion likely to maybe motivate thought as to what constitutes personal freedom and personal choice is likely to be an uphill battle in that environment.

As part of a group where you should be reaping empathic benefits, I don't understand how it is you're putting it upon yourself to have to act as the enlightening source for others...although it is commendable. Do you feel that this is not something that can aptly be left as is without interference by the others in your group? As in...is this going to become a continual source of indirect (or even direct) harassment?


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:47:57 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

Which is great, but, doesn't help me explain the kink culture to the group.

I do agree I need to be more assertive with personal boundaries.  It's top of the to-do list.

But, right now, we're still bang in the middle of "getting flogged by my partner is self harm" and "going to a club is putting myself at risk" and other similar thoughts.  And I have no idea how to educate them out of it.



You maybe need reinforcement from your friends, you know instead of them stepping in, that they possibly ask you if you are OK with that person approaching you, then you can speak your mind, it might be easier for you than being assertive straight away.

I've lived in the UK again for roughly 2 years, so I'm not too aware if there are kink friendly professionals, they could definitely help you to explain it. I can understand their issue if you had problems with self harming.

Another idea to explain it would possibly be to tell them that it is another form of intimacy and expressing trust, that the nerve endings for pleasure and pain are the same and like food, what is pleasurable for some might not be for others and the other way round?

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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:48:28 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		You simply may not be able to 'educate them' out of their ways of thinking about these things, especially if it's outside their realm of experience. Sometimes it's a case of 'this is how it is for me' and leave it at that. Not everyone is going to be able to understand and you will not necessarily be able to explain in a way that will satisfy them.

agirl



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RE: Cultural Differences - 10/27/2008 3:56:21 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

But, right now, we're still bang in the middle of "getting flogged by my partner is self harm" and "going to a club is putting myself at risk" and other similar thoughts.  And I have no idea how to educate them out of it.


Here's a decent article to direct them to, or to have at your disposal:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=19990901-000039&page=1

You might also mention that studies have shown that what is often considered painful stimuli is, in a percentage of the population, perceived as pleasurable.  That is, the painful stimuli causes a response in the reward areas of the brain.
 
http://opioids.com/dopamine/pleasurepain.html
 
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19990718214106data_trunc_sys.shtml
 
It's naturally difficult for them to wrap their heads around the concept that a sizeable portion of the population actually perceives pain as pleasurable, and that it's something hardwired into their circuitry.  But it's a medical fact.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/27/2008 3:57:13 PM >

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Sri da Avabhas

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