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ORIGINAL: philosophy

Now the pro-life position, as it applies to changing legislation, removes choice. Removes the element of free will from the equation. That position seeks to do something that God Himself forebore to do. Remove the element of choice. This is clearly hubris.
Thus, my hypothesis runs, those that seek to change legislation to make abortion illegal are anti-Christian. They have forgotten the first principle.......free will.

Discuss

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I  am a Christian, pro-life and opposed to overturning Roe V. Wade. A contradiction — not in my mind or in my heart.

Science and the dictionary define life as:

The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

According to Wikipedia:

An embryo (from Greek: μβρυον, plural μβρυα, lit. “that which grows,” from en- “in” + bryein “to swell, be full”) is a multicellular diploid eukaryote in its earliest stage of development, from the time of first cell division until birth, hatching, or germination.

And the Christian Bible says the following about conception:

Oh yes, you shaped me first inside, then out; you formed me in my mother’s womb. I thank you, High God—you’re breathtaking! Body and soul, I am marvelously made! I worship in adoration—what a creation! You know me inside and out, you know every bone in my body; You know exactly how I was made, bit by bit, how I was sculpted from nothing into something. Like an open book, you watched me grow from conception to birth; all the stages of my life were spread out before you, The days of my life all prepared before I’d even lived one day. — The Message (MSG)Psalm 139:12-14 (in Context) Psalm 139 (Whole Chapter)

Based on these definitions, I believe that at the instant of conception, the embryo is a life. Therefore, an abortion ends a life – a life which had immeasurable potential and inherent value.
So if I controlled the world and controlled people:

• all life would be valued,
  
• young men and women would be taught to value themselves,
  
• men and women would give more thought to the consequences of their actions,
  
• no woman would be raped,
  
• every child would be wanted from the moment of conception,
  
• there would be loving individuals willing to adopt every child who was not wanted by their birth parents,
  
• every child born would be loved, cared for, appreciated and given every opportunity to achieve their destiny and,
  
• there would be no abortions.

I am pro life.

However, I do not control the world or its people. No human does. Christianity teaches that God gave man-kind “free will” or freedom of choice. So while I may not agree with another woman’s choices, I do not think that her life should be in jeopardy, if she chooses abortion as an option.

The argument advanced by the religious right is that the unborn child is “innocent”. It is easy to view the child as “innocent” and the woman as “guilty” but is this what Christianity really teaches?

Does Christianity teach that we should have more compassion for the unborn child than the mother?
I certainly do not condone the practice of using abortion as a method of birth control but do I believe that I can legislate behavior or conscience. No I don’t.

So how do I believe Christianity views the woman who has had an abortion?

John 8:3-11 The Message (MSG)
The religion scholars and Pharisees led in a woman who had been caught in an act of adultery. They stood her in plain sight of everyone and said, “Teacher, this woman was caught red-handed in the act of adultery. Moses, in the Law, gives orders to stone such persons. What do you say?” They were trying to trap him into saying something incriminating so they could bring charges against him.
Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger in the dirt.
They kept at him, badgering him.
He straightened up and said, “The sinless one among you, go first: Throw the stone.”
Bending down again, he wrote some more in the dirt.
Hearing that, they walked away, one after another, beginning with the oldest. The woman was left alone. Jesus stood up and spoke to her. “Woman, where are they? Does no one condemn you?”
“No one, Master.”
“Neither do I,” said Jesus. “Go on your way. From now on, don’t sin.”

To me the only political argument left on the issue of abortion is whether it should be taxpayer funded, not whether it should be a legal option in every state.

Churches should continue to teach the tenant of their faith. Parents should continue to instill their values in their children. And people of faith should stop letting people with political agendas manipulate them.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: cjan

Interesting how so many who oppose abortion, of any kind and under all circumstances, just as vigorously support the death penalty . And, btw, in one of the few "developed" countries in the world that still have the death penalty. 

Oh trust me, the next time a fetus goes on a rampage and kills, maims and tortures a few people, I'll be all for removing it from society.

Yup. Just let me know when that happens and I'll be RIGHT on it.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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Why the anti-choice camp wants to go back to "DIY abortions," however, is beyond me, since there's this thing about it contradicting their supposedly pro-life position, unless it is only babies they want to live, in which case I am somewhat perplexed at what manner of thought process can arrive at the notion that the seed is more noble than the flower.

Point of clarification:  No matter the mechanism, abortion is a wrong choice.  DIY abortions are just as wrong as the current sanctioned procedures.  The goal should not be a "return" to DIY abortions, but an end to the practice, period.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

No matter the mechanism, abortion is a wrong choice.  DIY abortions are just as wrong as the current sanctioned procedures.  The goal should not be a "return" to DIY abortions, but an end to the practice, period.

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ORIGINAL: cjan

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: cjan

Interesting how so many who oppose abortion, of any kind and under all circumstances, just as vigorously support the death penalty . And, btw, in one of the few "developed" countries in the world that still have the death penalty. 

Oh trust me, the next time a fetus goes on a rampage and kills, maims and tortures a few people, I'll be all for removing it from society.

Yup. Just let me know when that happens and I'll be RIGHT on it.

You miss my point, OP. If killing a human being is moraly wrong, "government sanctioned" or not, it is wrong in all circumstances, except, perhaps, in self defense.  In the case of abortion, as many have pointed out, it is at least arguable whether a fetus is a human being or just has the potential to become one.No one has the definitive answer to that question as yet, no doctor, scientist, court,guru or priest. There are only opinions and yours is just one amongst many. In the light of that fact, imo, it is solely the woman's right to choose whether to abort or not.. Her choice and her responsibility. 

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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Doing harm is not the same as wishing harm. The decision to abort does not arise from a woman's wish to harm her fetus. There is no maliciousness in it.

The desire to terminate human life via abortion is a desire to inflict harm on said human.  Such a desire is the definition of malice.

Abortion is a premeditated killing.  It fits the legal requirements for murder, including the malice aforethought.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Pro-lifers like to forget the fact that we make choices all the time in the process of bringing a child into this world that potentially destroys and creates thousands of theoretical human entities.

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masturbation could be considered abortion too, since the sperm dont make contact with the eggs.. (MR.. I do like you :) )

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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masturbation could be considered abortion too, since the sperm dont make contact with the eggs.. (MR.. I do like you :) )

If masturbation can be considered abortion and if abortion is murder then I’m the greatest mass murderer in the history of the human race.

Hey folks, just for the fun of it, I thought I’d pour some gasoline into the fire: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2817/when-does-human-life-begin

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ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

I had originally promised myself that absolutely, positively, under no circumstances, would I reply to this thread.  I managed until now, but simply can't any longer.  I've been fighting the urge to do so for Hours now - and I'm through fighting with myself.
 
Phil - as to your OP - you make a very good point.  Free Will means having the option for ANY of the choices, and then choosing what the individual feels is best for herself (or himself) - not in being told by folks who don't know you, don't live your life, don't have your personal relationship with Diety, your individual experiences and concerns tell you, "hey, I find this particular choice invalid because I consider it morally objectionable, therefore I'm making the choice FOR YOU, so that *I won't be Offended by Your morality.  But just so you feel like you still have some say in the matter - here is an option that I Will approve of as Morally Viable In My Own Eyes, and you can do that.  Good luck, don't ask for my help now that I've made your decision for you."  If nothing else, such an attitude out of Kinksters - folks who are Routinely Judged About Their Sexuality by the "normals" in society - I consider it hypocritical to start getting pissy about a Moral issue while condeming others for getting pissy about YOUR sexual Morality.  (You being Generic in this sense.)
 
As for the Rest of the various comments on the thread.....
 
How many of you have actually had to face the decision making process?  How many of you have been faced with agonizing over what is actually Best for Everyone Who Is Actually Concerned with the situation?  How many of you have sat in the doctor's office, waiting for an appointment, having to face the second thoughts that run rampant?  How many of you have woken up afterwards in both physical and emotional agony, not even knowing that you've been crying nearly hysterically in your drug induced sleep until the nurse asks you if you're through crying?  How many of you have faced hate filled, judgemental, obscenity screaming asshats waiting outside the doctor's office to call you a murderer - while at the same time having no idea of WHY you were there, or what brought you to the decision, and frankly not giving a shit as to the Why so long as you know that they consider you scum because they're screaming it at  you at the top of their lungs six inches from your face?  How many of you have had to try and pull the shreds of your dignity around you to walk that sort of gauntlet, while inside all you want to do is scream back at the unknowing, unknown haters who have the temerity and Utter Gall to think they have some sort of right to stand in Judgement - or perhaps just to punch a few of them violently and repeatedly in the face to make them back off?
 
It is Not an easy decision to make.  It is even more difficult to carry through with once it's made, even knowing that it IS the best choice available to you.  It is something that you question yourself on for the REST OF YOUR LIFE once it's made.  Yes, I have faced that decision making process.  I faced that hate filled screaming gauntlet.  And not one... NOT ONE... of those screaming "pro-life" folks stopped even for a second to ask me WHY I did what I did, or to find out what my emotional state was in coming to the decision, or to give a flying rat's ass what sort of pain I was in across the emotional and physical spectrum.
 
How many of you who simply say, rather self rightously, "put the kid up for adoption" would stand up and volunteer to take in a child that might not live to see his or her first birthday?  How many of you - HONESTLY - have the fucking Fortitude it takes to raise a severely handicapped child from birth, to deal with the daily emotional traumas, the uncertainty, the constant medical emergencies?  And if you have the fortitude to do it Once, how about 2? 3? 4? that all have severe problems and can't even survive without machines to keep their blood pumping and force oxygen into their lungs, and that will never - for as long as the machines are capable of forcing oxygen - know who you are, who they are, or do anything other than lay in a crib with a feeding tube up their nose while You wait for the machines to finally fail in their task? 
 
It's so easy to sit there, smug and self rightous, saying that it's never a valid option.  That it's never the right choice.  But you're wrong.  Sometimes, it's the Only viable choice.