RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (Full Version)

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MadRabbit -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:28:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Pro-lifers like to forget the fact that we make choices all the time in the process of bringing a child into this world that potentially destroys and creates thousands of theoretical human entities.



Precisely: I am starting to believe that the pro-life movement acts out of a hubristic want to control life precisely because life is out of their control. You could call it fear of death, I suppose.


I think it mostly comes down to a naive sense of security and a desire for a black and white understanding of the way the world works which is why it's a view common to Christian fundamentalists.

Murder of a human being is murder because we know for a fact we are killing a body that houses an entity named "Joe".

Taking a brain damaged vegetable course off life support isn't consider murder or a subject of intense debate because we know for a fact (or at the very least have enough conclusive evidence to determine) that the body in question no longer houses an entity named "Joe".

When it comes to the process of child birth, we move away from this solidarity into the realm of the grey where our ignorance of the subject creates an "unknown" as to when exactly the physical body becomes the house of a human entity.

People can't handle that unknown so they like to draw the line in the sand and say "This is the way it is" when they have nothing creditable or substantial to support it other then their personal theory.

Much in the same way people can't handle the possibility of a finite universe with no God so they wrap themselves up in a completely unproven religous faith that they assert at being "right".

People can't handle the big scary unknown universe so they rather grab to some kind of anchor to hold on to as "right" rather entertain the lowest common denominator of "we don't know".

Edited to Add : Apparently some people need to determine other people's personal theories for them. I don't so I leave it to personal choice and for them to face whatever great big cosmic consequences that await them in the theoretical afterlife as a result of those choices.




xxblushesxx -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:46:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


I think it mostly comes down to a naive sense of security and a desire for a black and white understanding of the way the world works which is why it's a view common to Christian fundamentalists.


So, saying that it isn't life until....what? The baby can breathe on it's own, isn't a black and white view?
What do you think it will be given the natural course of things?
A shoe?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit People can't handle that unknown so they like to draw the line in the sand and say "This is the way it is" when they have nothing creditable or substantial to support it other then their personal theory.
  As the pro-abortion people seem to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Edited to Add : Apparently some people need to determine other people's personal theories for them. I don't so I leave it to personal choice and for them to face whatever great big cosmic consequences that await them in the theoretical afterlife as a result of those choices.
Although it seems that's what most on this thread want to do, doesn't really matter which side they're on, does it?

In the normal course of things, it is not ok to take a human life just because it is convenient. It's just not.
And, yes, I feel compassion for those who have had to make that decision.
I realize there are no absolutes in this life.
There but for the grace of God go I...
It's just a bit too easy in the world we have created to ignore the fact that these are human beings.
And yes, there really are people who use abortion as some screwed up form of birth control. Not all. Not most. But some. And yanno what? That is just too many.
If we don't make it illegal, there has to be some sort of rules as to how and when it will be implemented.
It's just too easy now.
And too sad.

*edited for snarkiness*




celticlord2112 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:51:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Why the anti-choice camp wants to go back to "DIY abortions," however, is beyond me, since there's this thing about it contradicting their supposedly pro-life position, unless it is only babies they want to live, in which case I am somewhat perplexed at what manner of thought process can arrive at the notion that the seed is more noble than the flower.

Point of clarification:  No matter the mechanism, abortion is a wrong choice.  DIY abortions are just as wrong as the current sanctioned procedures.  The goal should not be a "return" to DIY abortions, but an end to the practice, period.



Yeah, CL... but it's GOING TO HAPPEN.  It ALWAYS will, until there is a 100% foolproof method of birthcontrol.  So why make it a back alley procedure?

You're ok with wars.. sanctioned killing.. of living breathing contributing human beings.. how do you reconcile that?


Easy. I'm not ok with wars.




hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:51:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Point of clarification:  No matter the mechanism, abortion is a wrong choice.  DIY abortions are just as wrong as the current sanctioned procedures.  The goal should not be a "return" to DIY abortions, but an end to the practice, period.



CL - did you even read my earlier responce to this thread?  If you did, did you comprehend it?  Or did you simply skim past it and ignore it because it doesn't jive with your own line of reasoning?  You rather conveniently mention Mechanism here - but say nothing of the Reasons.
 
This issue is Not simple.  This is Not a course that is exclusively taken for Convenience.  There are Multitudes of reasons to have the base procedure - a D & C - performed by the doctor.  Not every woman who faces the abort process is doing so because she was Careless, or Irresponcible, or To Young to have developed the "right" morality.  We face that decision to preserve our own health.  We face that decision to avoid bringing another life into the world that can't Medically survive outside the womb.  We face that decision.  And once the decision is made, we question it, and our worth,  and our continuing femininity, and whether or not we've served one of the primary Biological purposes that women serve.  And we spend the rest of our lives questioning.
 
By your stated reasoning - ie, it's wrong and that's all there is to it - you would condeme women like myself, who have STRONG GENETIC REASONS not to bring that fetus to term, to attempting to raise a child that they aren't capable of raising either physically or emotionally.  I was in a stable, live in relationship of several years.  We WANTED to have a child together.  We had tried multiple times to do so, and kept going through the emotional agony of miscarriage due to Genetic malformations - the Same genetic problems which had caused my oldest to be born with severe handicaps that the doctors are Still amazed she survived through.  And then came a set of Twins - and one miscarried, and the other didn't.  And for 2 weeks after half that set of twins died, I agonized over whether to take the doctor's suggestion of terminating the second twin, while I waited for test results.  In the end, due to the test results, I followed the doctor's suggestion.  The fetus most likely wouldn't have survived to term, and if it had, would have suffered from even more severe difficulties of the sort that my oldest has faced for 21 years.  But I guess none of that matters - none of the reasons, none of the emotional suffering of a couple who wanted to reproduce together but couldn't sucessfully do so, none of the grief - because it's Always the wrong choice according to you.
 
Do you consider the Abomination which is a fetus concieved via Rape or Incest to be more important (after all, you CAN'T Kill it) than the mental and physical health of the female who was raped or concieved through incest?  Do you consider Medically Unviable pregnancies - pregnancies which the doctors say will kill the Mother to continue - more important than the woman's life who's going through it?  I ask these questions - which no doubt many pro-life folks consider "inappropriate" - because your stated stance is blanketing.  It is all encompassing, and takes NOTHING into consideration other than "do not under any circumstances terminate the pregnancy because that's killing" (to paraphrase.)
 
I don't Like termination as an option when it's used for Convenience.  I don't approve of it, nor condone it, when it's used to as a form of (expensive) birth control.  But I Also don't approve - and won't condone - condeming all who face the procedure simply because Some who do so were irresponcible twits that just want to avoid a consequence they didn't consider before going and getting laid. 
 
I don't have the Right - AND NEITHER DO YOU - to foist my Personal morals off on the rest of the humanity. 




kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:53:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

It's just too easy now.
And too sad.



It's not easy. It's not convenient. It's not cheap. It's not sad.

It's necessary. It can be hard. It takes courage. It's life.






giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:54:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

until there is a 100% foolproof method of birthcontrol.  So why make it a back alley procedure?


GT, I just wanted to add here:  there has to be a 100% foolproof method of birthcontrol that is affordable and assesible to all (those two issues are important in addressing this as well).  Also, that method has to be one that is aggreable to the human body (I can't take estrogin birthcontrol because of the link between migrain headaches and bloodclots - I tried to tell my doctor to just overlook the fact that I've had migrains way in the past but she's too fucking ethical, and I can't take progesteron because the side-effects fuck up my system too much, doesn't leave me with a lot of effective options).  It's been well established also, and this is just an aside, that once the pill was introduced science basically slowed down (or stopped) looking for birth control methods for men, you know, make them take a shot, make them take a pill, etc.  Birth control is better than it's ever been, more advanced, etc, and the most effective methods still involved a pill that can mess up a woman's (might I say, very delicate) hormonal balance.




MadRabbit -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:57:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

So, saying that it isn't life until....what? The baby can breathe on it's own, isn't a black and white view?
What do you think it will be given the natural course of things?
A shoe?


I'm saying "I don't know". And neither do you. As such you have to decide for yourself and make your decisions accordingly and everyone else has to as well.

When the day comes when we have enough understanding of human conception that we can conclude at which point the fetus becomes the house of a human entity as opposed to just a vegetable, then we can pass legislation.

What I think is my personal opinion and my choice regarding my offspring and to be frankly honest, none of your buisness. I'm not asking you for permission nor am I going to answer to you just because my theory is different from yours.

quote:

As the pro-abortion people seem to do.
 

It's called "pro-choice" and what the means in the abscense of fact, we all have to decide for ourselves. The only truth here and fact is that "we don't know". Unless you have some scientific data or fact that proves your theory of when life starts that you want to share.

In the abscense of that, then I am, in fact, right that we "don't know".

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Edited to Add : Apparently some people need to determine other people's personal theories for them. I don't so I leave it to personal choice and for them to face whatever great big cosmic consequences that await them in the theoretical afterlife as a result of those choices.
Although it seems that's what most on this thread want to do, doesn't really matter which side they're on, does it?


I am not deciding anyone's theory. I am advocating giving people the choice to decide for themselves.

quote:


In the normal course of things, it is not ok to take a human life just because it is convenient. It's just not.
 

Once again unless you have some scientific proof to interject here that a fetus is, in fact, a human life that houses a human entity and abortion is not the same as pulling the plug on a vegetable on life support, then that is your opinion and personal theory/belief.

Please don't be so arrogant to attend to assert your personal beliefs as being "truth" in the abscense of fact or assert that I should agree with them when you cannot prove otherwise.

quote:


It's just a bit too easy in the world we have created to ignore the fact that these are human beings.


If that was a fact, we would not be having this debate anymore then we would be having a debate on these forums about whether or not murder should be legal or not.

quote:


If we don't make it illegal, there has to be some sort of rules as to how and when it will be implemented.


There is. 




cjan -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:58:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

And look at it this way: if we get together, we won't be making babies, even if we go at it like rabbits [8D] .


Oh, I soooo wanna be there for that !




Rule -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 8:59:57 AM)

One of the incarnate gods discarded unfit fetuses, especially if it was not his progeny. (I am not saying that I would have agreed with his decisions to do so. Only observing that there does exist divine precedent.)




giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:03:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

As the pro-abortion people seem to do.

This is propaganda.  I am not pro-abortion, all the pro-choice people I know are not pro-abortion.  In fact, Planned Parenthood's mission is the eliminate the need for abortion.  Don't do this kind of propaganda, it cheapens the debate.




kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:03:59 AM)

Ah please, don't confuse the issue any more by bringing in some obscure incarnate deities. There's already one big bearded guy up there we apparently all have to contend with (and I'm not talking about bear, or CJ), so please! Let's leave Osiris out of this [8D] .




GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:04:45 AM)

Rhi.. thanks again for sharing such a personal, and emotionally charged, piece of yourself.

I am in awe.

Christina.. you know I adore you.. but I have to take issue with the 'pro-abortion' comment as well. I am NOT 'pro abortion'.. I am PRO CHOICE.  As Rhi's story so eloquently states, there are times when abortion is the RIGHT thing to do.. can we (generic) all say "quality of life"?  and I don't mean for the parents.. I mean for the child who is born and will spend their entire existence without knowing anything about themselves, their surroundings, their parents.. no chance to go outside and play? go to school? date? marry? produce offspring? get their drivers license?

*stopping here*




kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:07:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

As the pro-abortion people seem to do.

This is propaganda.  I am not pro-abortion, all the pro-choice people I know are not pro-abortion.  In fact, Planned Parenthood's mission is the eliminate the need for abortion.  Don't do this kind of propaganda, it cheapens the debate.


Yes, the rhetoric is so inflammatory, isn't it? "Pro-abortion", as if anybody could possibly be for a medical intervention and was advocating it as a lifestyle choice... And "pro-life", as if "pro-choice" were "pro-death". It's ridiculous, but thankfully it only implicates those foolish enough to use and abuse this semantic registry of belief and dogma.




scarlethiney -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:13:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


I think it mostly comes down to a naive sense of security and a desire for a black and white understanding of the way the world works which is why it's a view common to Christian fundamentalists.


So, saying that it isn't life until....what? The baby can breathe on it's own, isn't a black and white view?
What do you think it will be given the natural course of things?
A shoe?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit People can't handle that unknown so they like to draw the line in the sand and say "This is the way it is" when they have nothing creditable or substantial to support it other then their personal theory.
  As the pro-abortion people seem to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Edited to Add : Apparently some people need to determine other people's personal theories for them. I don't so I leave it to personal choice and for them to face whatever great big cosmic consequences that await them in the theoretical afterlife as a result of those choices.
Although it seems that's what most on this thread want to do, doesn't really matter which side they're on, does it?

In the normal course of things, it is not ok to take a human life just because it is convenient. It's just not.
And, yes, I feel compassion for those who have had to make that decision.
I realize there are no absolutes in this life.
There but for the grace of God go I...
It's just a bit too easy in the world we have created to ignore the fact that these are human beings.
And yes, there really are people who use abortion as some screwed up form of birth control. Not all. Not most. But some. And yanno what? That is just too many.
If we don't make it illegal, there has to be some sort of rules as to how and when it will be implemented.
It's just too easy now.
And too sad.

*edited for snarkiness*


I think you did a good job of being *snarky*.  Please say what you mean. It's  not ok to have an abortion for convenience. How on earth do you know or what right do you have to judge a decision like that and assume it's merely for convenience sake? That's beyond snarky that's pretty lacking in compassion and pretty judgmental.
Next you say you do have compassion for women who  have to go through that decision. Wait you have compassion if it's for a reason you deem appropriate??? Sorry but that's high on my snarky meter.
Rape
feeding the other two children you already have?
illness or danger to the mother?
You actually know people who have used abortion for birth control, how many?
It's not sad that a 16yr old girl overdoses because she's too terrified to go to an abortion clinic where she'll be harrassed and heckled and is terrified to tell her parents she's pregnant.
It's just too easy????
You'd rather make it illegal and force young women in poverty, young women under age and women who aren't either physically or emotionally capable of taking care of  a child to use a back street butcher who will probably mutilate them if not kill them during an illegal abortion?
But wait........... it's just too easy right? Let's not make it safe or easy.
Sorry but that's pretty damn snarky in my opinion.
I do agree with one thing you said while you waffled back and forth....................there are no absolutes and no one should be above judging any one else for the choice they make.

scarlet





giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:17:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


Yes, the rhetoric is so inflammatory, isn't it? "Pro-abortion", as if anybody could possibly be for a medical intervention and was advocating it as a lifestyle choice... And "pro-life", as if "pro-choice" were "pro-death". It's ridiculous, but thankfully it only implicates those foolish enough to use and abuse this semantic registry of belief and dogma.
 This kind of propaganda is a political tool (think Karl Rove or Lee Atwater).  It does absolutely nothing to understand the real human consequences (something we all want to do, both those who agree with me and those who don't, I used the universal term "we" and I'll stand by it), that people make really difficult decisions all the time, and that they are, in most cases, just trying to get by in life.  BTW, Lee Atwater (Karl Rove's mentor) had a death bed come-to-jesus, where he said what he had done was wrong, the way he had manipulated politics, done dirty politics, used wedges issues was bad for the country and ethically wrong.   




Dnomyar -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:21:45 AM)

What does God care about a life being taken. He cares less. His son is a good example of that.  Don't give me the crap about him dieing for our sins. If he did then why are we still sinning.




dawntreader -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:23:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Because being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-death.

Yes it does.


 
Interesting how it is always an either/or situation for so many...
 
i was recently accused of being pro-terrorist for being pro-peace; outright accused of causing the death of American soldiers for my belief in Peace...and my views here are equally grey.
 
i am pro-life and because of this i make my choices based on the consequences of my actions...just as i am teaching my female offspring to do. In my opinion, abortion is no better a choice than war or the dealth penalty ( as these have been brought into this discussion), but it is a choice and i value choice as much as i value life.
 
Sex carries the risk of pregnancy - this is not new and today (meaning this decade) technically between consenting adults, there is enough birthcontrol options to avoid the issue of unwanted pregnancy and i think most people are aware of this. These are facts. It is when we do not educate our youth about these things, and instead give them only the moral majority option, we are asking for the very trends in teenage pregnancy we see. Also we are not teaching responsibility and consequence awareness prior to sexual activity.  Personally, i find the number of offspring born to teenage mothers just as appaling as abortion - neither of these are desirable choices to me.
 
Do i believe there are better choices than abortion...hell yes, for me. However, it is up to each woman to make her own choices and if given enough information and non-biased education and support, she will make the best choice for herself...one she can live with.
 
So yes, i can be pro-life and pro-choice~
 
As to the OP, many religious groups, not just the christians have manipulated the people in regards to choice and free will, however being that we are talking christians here, i resent my government making laws based on a religion's belief of morality. i don't believe in a christian god so i can't suppose if he did indeed mean for his people to exercise free will or to exhibit blind obedience and stay away from the tree of knowledge~
 
i can only do what is right for me and teach and guide my offspring to find what is right for her. And i want to live in a world that allows me the choice to do this~
 
 




Kimveri -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:24:33 AM)

~FR to the OP~

All of man's laws are little more than an attempt to direct social growth & punish those who impinge upon that.  No laws can actually remove a choice from anyone, they simply legislate acceptable punishment for flouting said law.

Laws that impose morality irk me. The day you come to punish me for rejecting your preferred moral strictures is the day I defend my freedom by any means necessary. If that sounds like a personal threat or a declaration of holy war, so be it. I have no moral compunction against killing all comers, regardless of their preferred deity, should they seek to limit my freedom.

I may even particularly relish the death of hypocrites unable to accept the weight of the responsibility that comes with freedom.

~Kimveri




giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:34:25 AM)

Okay, I've been thinking how to articulate this... so here it goes.  I find nothing nastier and less charitable than to be in a discussion like this where people are talking about personal issues and personal experiences (knowing that people will disagree with their choices but believing that by telling a personal example might bring out the humanness of the situation, possibly complicate everyone's analysis will issues based in life's lived) and have other people come back at those honest attempts with contempt.  Personal stories (both those who spoke of terminating pregnancies and those who spoke of not terminating and the joy that brought) do place the "theoretical" issues into the lived experience (my god, this is still important is it not?).  I find it distastful to continue with retoric when people have been honest (on both sides, or the multiple sides of the issue).   Particularly, I've tried to think of what the equivilant of calling or infering that people are murders is.  And it might be a distastful declaration like:  I can't believe you have ten kids who you cannot care for; you cannot adequately fund their experience in life; you cannot give all the love and attention that I (I used that judementally here btw, for affect) would give a child that I love and cherish; that you are so selfish that you would rather blah blah blah, fill in the blank.  Having ten children is a burden to society, is wrong, is morally deficent.  BTW, I would never say this to anyone, no do I think it.  And it would be unacceptable to me to read someone in the pro-choice camp saying such a thing and I would call them on it.  All of this cheapens the debate, all this insinuation that some people are good because they did x, y and z and some people are bad because they didn't do life the way you would. 




xxblushesxx -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 9:44:38 AM)

This is never going to get anywhere until people start trying to understand the other side.
I *do* try to understand the people who believe abortion should be legal and freely given.
I just disagree.
Not necessarily about making it illegal. But that there has to be a better way.
I'm bowing out of this respectfully.




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