RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 6:57:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Hell, if Barack Obama were conceived today, out of wedlock with a 17 year old single mother and a father married to someone else, what do you think his chance at life would be? Seriously, where the fuck did that one come out of? quote: I don't understand how you can say abortion is not about the fetuses being aborted, or the children who are saved from abortion. As for this, I reiterate: my abortion is behind me, but I'm still here. Therefore, it isn't about a past pregnancy: it is about a living woman. It's up to you to sentimentalise and get all gooey over miscarried pregnancies. Life goes on.

camille65 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 6:59:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Ok, CL.. so what you're saying... outlaw abortion. Murder already is outlawed. I am saying that the pretense of abortion being anything other than murder should be brought to a swift and permanent end. Should women that have 'illegal' abortions also be brought to a swift and permanent end??

kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:00:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Ok, CL.. so what you're saying... outlaw abortion. Murder already is outlawed. I am saying that the pretense of abortion being anything other than murder should be brought to a swift and permanent end. And how precisely do you propose to achieve that noble aim? By executing the bitches [8\|]? Death penalty for abortionists!

philosophy -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:00:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick Pro-life doesn't remove choice, it removes one single choice. There are still other choices. i made sure to point out my hypothesis applied strictly to those Pro-Lifers who seek to change legislation. The choice involved is, at the first part of the decision tree, binary. Abortion or continue with the pregnancy. I'm sorry that nobody, as far as I can see, addressed your OP about removing free will. I had a feeling that would happen. As soon as the word "abortion" is introduced, it doesn't seem to matter what the question is, it becomes a pro-choice vs. pro-life free-for-all. What I meant was, changing legislation does not remove free will. It only removes one choice, not all choices. I don't see it as the binary tree that you describe. When you remove all choices, then I see you removing free will. Cali ...thanks for the clarification Cali.........as to the binary tree.......well, while i'm wholly opposed to Aristolian logic in general, some situations are a series of binary choices one after the other....... Yup, the thread has spiraled off in a few unwanted directions, but it's inevitable in such an emotive subject. i'd ask the mods to leave a little more leeway than usual regarding thread derailing to reflect that.

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:01:00 PM)
quote: Sure you have. And pretty shitty isn't exactly how I bet many who did would describe it. No actually whats pretty shitty is all the children who were tortured, and beaten and raped who are now DEAD. I'm not sure what the hell childrens home you worked at, but the ones I lived in had DCFS and YOS constantly swarming in and out of the place. The suckiness was in the general hopeless atmosphere of the area. Though I do remember one time this chick left her kid with a bunch of drug dealers on the corner so she could go flirt with one of them, and then called the cops when she couldn't find the kid. I guess you think that kid should have been aborted too, eh? The worst that happened to me was a fist fight and poor nutrition. And the places I was were for 12-17 year olds, the ones who will never, ever get adopted and will live in that system for the rest of their childhood. I got lucky because I only spent 9 months in that system, but the things you describe are anomalies. They are the one in a thousand scenarios that the media focuses on to sell newspapers. Hell, the place I stayed at in DesPlaines was nicer than my mom's house. Better food, too.

Darias -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:01:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Ok, CL.. so what you're saying... outlaw abortion. Murder already is outlawed. I am saying that the pretense of abortion being anything other than murder should be brought to a swift and permanent end. And how precisely do you propose to achieve that noble aim? By executing the bitches [8\|]? Death penalty for abortionists! consequtive life sentances if you abort twins

cjan -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:02:08 PM)
Interesting how so many who oppose abortion, of any kind and under all circumstances, just as vigorously support the death penalty . And, btw, in one of the few "developed" countries in the world that still have the death penalty.

bestbabync -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:04:22 PM)
pro lifers believe the unborn child is absolutely innocent

GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:05:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Ok, CL.. so what you're saying... outlaw abortion. Murder already is outlawed. I am saying that the pretense of abortion being anything other than murder should be brought to a swift and permanent end. Care to address the rest of the post you pulled that quote from?

GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:07:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bestbabync pro lifers believe the unborn child is absolutely innocent but this isnt ABOUT guilt or innocence. Phil.. I agree with your OP, fwiw... :)

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:12:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Hell, if Barack Obama were conceived today, out of wedlock with a 17 year old single mother and a father married to someone else, what do you think his chance at life would be? Seriously, where the fuck did that one come out of? Both Obama and Clinton had mothers who, if they were in their situation today, would be encouraged by peers to terminate their pregnancies. And the world would have lost two influential men. Lord only knows what we've missed out on, both positive and negative. quote: quote: I don't understand how you can say abortion is not about the fetuses being aborted, or the children who are saved from abortion. As for this, I reiterate: my abortion is behind me, but I'm still here. Therefore, it isn't about a past pregnancy: it is about a living woman. It's up to you to sentimentalise and get all gooey over miscarried pregnancies. Life goes on. Out of sight, out of mind? It might be behind you but it still did happen. What's past IS past, nothing can change that now, but that doesn't mean it has to be repeated in the future. I feel that we're losing a sense of sanctity about life, about our bodies, and about our sexuality when it comes to legal abortion. Outlawing abortion isn't THE answer though, it's just one step in a long chain

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:13:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjan Interesting how so many who oppose abortion, of any kind and under all circumstances, just as vigorously support the death penalty . And, btw, in one of the few "developed" countries in the world that still have the death penalty. Oh trust me, the next time a fetus goes on a rampage and kills, maims and tortures a few people, I'll be all for removing it from society. Yup. Just let me know when that happens and I'll be RIGHT on it.

bestbabync -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:17:22 PM)
cjan brought up the death penalty vs abortion. i was just stating the reason many pro lifers believe abortion is wrong and the death penalty is just.

camille65 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:17:35 PM)
[/quote] . What's past IS past, nothing can change that now, but that doesn't mean it has to be repeated in the future. I feel that we're losing a sense of sanctity about life, about our bodies, and about our sexuality when it comes to legal abortion. Outlawing abortion isn't THE answer though, it's just one step in a long chain. [/quote] Yet............. abortion legal and illegal has been a part of humanity since the beginning. Which is how you began your post in this thread btw. So you outlaw it, then what? Do you actually think that the need/want to terminate pregnancies suddenly disappears?

GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:19:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bestbabync cjan brought up the death penalty vs abortion. i was just stating the reason many pro lifers believe abortion is wrong and the death penalty is just. ok, gotcha :)

bestbabync -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:21:30 PM)
no the demand will not go away. but the money spent to protect "choice" could be spent on education, improving the adoption process/finding good homes and taking care of the unwanted children.

Roselaure -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:21:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Both Obama and Clinton had mothers who, if they were in their situation today, would be encouraged by peers to terminate their pregnancies. And the world would have lost two influential men. Holy screaming cats, not that old red herring. It made no sense the first time I heard it and it makes no sense now. Pro lifers used to spout this sad story about some poor child and then ask the question "Should his mother have had an abortion?" and then smirk smugly and say that the child was Beethoven. Great, using that logic wouldn't it have been dandy to go back in time and have Hitler's momma hustle on down to the abortion clinic? I don't presume to say whether any woman should or should not have an abortion but I do believe that it ultimately is her decision along with her doctor, and no one else's. I am pro-choice, not pro abortion.

kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:22:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Out of sight, out of mind? How insulting - it demonstrates how unwilling you are to learn, and how ready you are to judge.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:22:42 PM)
quote: Are you saying you think your the first to come up with this idea?? You think "fixing" the adoption process will be a solution?How exactly would you fix it?Come on don't stick a flimsy band aid on the situation. What's your plan? I don't recall saying I was the first to think of it. Very little said in this thread qualifies as original thought. However, as for a plan: 1. Reduce the costs of the process of adoption. When the process can cost prospective adoptive parents tens of thousands of dollars it is too damned expensive. 2. Encourage "open" adoptions. There is not nor should there ever be any stigma attached to adoption. Five of my cousins were adopted by various aunts and uncles--they are every bit a part of the family as the biological children (and heaven help the fool who suggests otherwise). Open adoptions, where the biological parents can know their offspring are in good and healthy environments, where they perhaps can even retain a role in the child's life, would do much to ease the conflicts felt by biological parents when a child is given up for adoption. Similarly, it would ease the conflicts felt by adopted children upon learning they are adopted. 3. Provide tax incentives to encourage adoption (since it is unlikely this country will ever not tax its citizens, let's at least use the tax code to accomplish something worthwhile). Emphasize that adoption is a social and moral good. 4. Get "adoption agencies" out of the business of processing adoptions. We don't sell slaves in this country. We shouldn't sell babies either. 5. Establish a clear, and fairly expansive set of adoption qualifications nationwide--basically ensure there is a healthy and stable home environment for the adopted child. Between the criteria for adoptive parents set by the various states and the added criteria layered on by the aforementioned agencies, adoption is a bureaucratic mess. I am sure there are many more things that can be done to improve the process of adopting a child, but I am confident these things would constitute a good start.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:24:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Ok, CL.. so what you're saying... outlaw abortion. Murder already is outlawed. I am saying that the pretense of abortion being anything other than murder should be brought to a swift and permanent end. Care to address the rest of the post you pulled that quote from? No need. Philosophy covered that already in his OP ("Free will", remember?)

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