RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian

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celticlord2112 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:25:58 PM)
quote: Should women that have 'illegal' abortions also be brought to a swift and permanent end?? No, they should not have abortions in the first place.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:27:01 PM)
quote: Death penalty for abortionists! Capital punishment is also murder. It, too, should be stopped.

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:27:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Out of sight, out of mind? How insulting - it demonstrates how unwilling you are to learn, and how ready you are to judge. Whoa there. I'm only asking based on what you wrote, which equated thinking about the fetus as "sentimentalising" and "getting all gooey".

kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:28:16 PM)
Finally, you say something that makes sense [8D]. I cease to despair of you, if only temporarily. And on this happy note, off to hit the hay I go.

GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:28:40 PM)
so if a woman excercises her free will to have an illegal abortion in an illegal back alley operation, and she dies, I guess she got what she deserved then, huh?

CalifChick -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: I'm sorry that nobody, as far as I can see, addressed your OP about removing free will. I did. quote: There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Respectfully, I still don't think that's it. It isn't about method or cause or result. I'll go out on a limb and say it isn't even really about abortion. It is about Christians espousing free will, and then not allowing people to have free will, but only allowing them the choices that Christians find morally acceptable. Or hell, I could be entirely wrong. Cali

Kirata -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:29:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Murder already is outlawed. I am saying that the pretense of abortion being anything other than murder should be brought to a swift and permanent end. Murder is a legal concept. Murder is established by law as killing under specific proscribed circumstances. Absent abortion being defined in law as murder, there is no "pretense" to the claim that it is not murder. The pretention is your claim that it is. K.

GreedyTop -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:30:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: I'm sorry that nobody, as far as I can see, addressed your OP about removing free will. I did. quote: There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Respectfully, I still don't think that's it. It isn't about method or cause or result. I'll go out on a limb and say it isn't even really about abortion. It is about Christians espousing free will, and then not allowing people to have free will, but only allowing them the choices that Christians find morally acceptable. Or hell, I could be entirely wrong. Cali nicely said, Cali :)

StrictnSaucy -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:30:33 PM)
This is a subject close to my heart. One of my close friends (after having 3 children by her husband) decided she couldnt have the 4th. This happened when I was in my early 20s and I could not understand her decision and it very nearly ended our friendship. I was strongly opposed to abortion and deemed her cruel and selfish. 10 years on - I found myself in a loving relationship, lots of plans (none including kids). And I fell pregnant.I never wanted kids and was in no way maternal. Went to the Doc to talk about options (and he was very open minded for an Irish Doc) In the next two to three weeks spoke with agencies that "supported" women in my position. Some hid under the blanket of supporting the womans choice and others were more blatant with their propeganda. Bottom line: Once pregnant I could never have aborted. The thing I really didnt appreciate was the "support" that was offered to me. If I had been 16 facing this life changing thing in my life the "support" agencies would have lead me to believe having an abortion would leave me baron. Adoption was out of the question unless one of my family were going to step forward ( in a country where my cousin had to go through 8 years of jumping through hoops to be allowed to adopt from Eastern Europe). So while I am not pro abortion, I do not appreciate feeling manipulated. (2.5 yrs on am so delighted to have a lil mini me playing havoc in the house)

celticlord2112 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:31:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop so if a woman excercises her free will to have an illegal abortion in an illegal back alley operation, and she dies, I guess she got what she deserved then, huh? Action begets consequence, individual notions of "fairness" notwithstanding. In the end, we are all Karma's bitch.

CalifChick -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:35:09 PM)
So hey, phil, if modern-day Christians were around back during ol' Adam & Eve time, they would have chopped down the apple tree, or encased it in cement, or stood guard 24/7 to make sure no one were to partake of the forbidden fruit, since eating the fruit was not morally acceptable... thereby removing free will, huh? Cali

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:36:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: I'm sorry that nobody, as far as I can see, addressed your OP about removing free will. I did. quote: There are obviously ways to terminate a pregnancy without legal abortion. Respectfully, I still don't think that's it. It isn't about method or cause or result. I'll go out on a limb and say it isn't even really about abortion. It is about Christians espousing free will, and then not allowing people to have free will, but only allowing them the choices that Christians find morally acceptable. Or hell, I could be entirely wrong. Cali Personally, I think you're wrong. Free will doesn't end with the letter of the law. Free will is what was given to us by God, and IIRC the whole point of free will is to be able to own the consequences, both positive and negative. Rosa Parks used her free will to break the law. So did Jeffrey Dahmer. Outlawing abortion, outlawing ANYTHING, doesn't take away the ABILITY to do it. It just says "if you do this within the borders of this nation you will have to answer to the justice system of this nation." That's it. That's why I brought up the fact that women have aborted babies since the dawn of civilization - and the majority of the time they did so in places where there was no legally sanctioned, doctor provided abortion. If a law was passed saying all doctors who perform abortions will lose their licenses, the doctors would still have the free will to either comply with the law or break it. They would make their choice based on their own morals, and regardless of whether the law calls them on it or not, a Christian would still believe that God would hold them accountable. Confusing the Christian doctrine of free will with secular legal options is a misguided analogy at best.

giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:36:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Out of sight, out of mind? Meowouch! You are kidding me, you're gonna go after someone like this. So maybe some women feel guilty about having abortions because of shit like this flung at them. Jesus, get some compassion! Then come back with a more coherent argument and less claws.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:40:07 PM)
quote: Murder is a legal concept. Murder is established by law as killing under specific proscribed circumstances. Absent abortion being defined in law as murder, there is no "pretense" to the claim that it is not murder. The pretention is your claim that it is. US Code, Title 18 §1111(a) defines murder as the "unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought." Abortion is the killing of a human being. It is intentional, therefore it is malicious. Save for the particular legal sanction granted it, it meets the legal criteria for murder.

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:41:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: giveeverything quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Out of sight, out of mind? Meowouch! You are kidding me, you're gonna go after someone like this. So maybe some women feel guilty about having abortions because of shit like this flung at them. Jesus, get some compassion! Then come back with a more coherent argument and less claws. If she feels guilty about having an abortion, I doubt it's because of a passing comment on a message board. But what would you prefer me to say? "It's okay honey, it was just a mess of tissue. You made the right choice! You go girl!" I'm sorry but I can't support her choice, especially when she calls talking about her "miscarriage" to be "sentimentalizing" and then gives the awful line "Life goes on" in regards to the life she terminated.

giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:41:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Murder is a legal concept. Murder is established by law as killing under specific proscribed circumstances. Absent abortion being defined in law as murder, there is no "pretense" to the claim that it is not murder. The pretention is your claim that it is. US Code, Title 18 §1111(a) defines murder as the "unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought." Abortion is the killing of a human being. It is intentional, therefore it is malicious. Save for the particular legal sanction granted it, it meets the legal criteria for murder. YAWN. It's un unwinnable argument.

giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:44:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: giveeverything quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Out of sight, out of mind? Meowouch! You are kidding me, you're gonna go after someone like this. So maybe some women feel guilty about having abortions because of shit like this flung at them. Jesus, get some compassion! Then come back with a more coherent argument and less claws. If she feels guilty about having an abortion, I doubt it's because of a passing comment on a message board. But what would you prefer me to say? "It's okay honey, it was just a mess of tissue. You made the right choice! You go girl!" I'm sorry but I can't support her choice, especially when she calls talking about her "miscarriage" to be "sentimentalizing" and then gives the awful line "Life goes on" in regards to the life she terminated. I'm not saying that she feels anything in particular because of something you said. I was merely musing that perhaps such nastiness leads to a environment of guilt and shame. I don't even know what to say to you, I frankly found that to be just a nasty thing to say. I stand by my initial reaction of "meowouch."

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:45:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Murder is a legal concept. Murder is established by law as killing under specific proscribed circumstances. Absent abortion being defined in law as murder, there is no "pretense" to the claim that it is not murder. The pretention is your claim that it is. US Code, Title 18 §1111(a) defines murder as the "unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought." Abortion is the killing of a human being. It is intentional, therefore it is malicious. Save for the particular legal sanction granted it, it meets the legal criteria for murder. Yeah but technically abortion is the lawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. It's those little buggers that get you [8D]

Elisabella -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:46:35 PM)
quote: I was merely musing that perhaps such nastiness leads to a environment of guilt and shame. I don't even know what to say to you, I frankly found that to be just a nasty thing to say. I stand by my initial reaction of "meowouch." You're right, it was a pretty nasty thing to say. Kittin, I'm sorry. I don't agree with your choice but I shouldn't assume whether or not it was an easy one for you to make.

servantheart -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/27/2008 7:48:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrictnSaucy This is a subject close to my heart. One of my close friends (after having 3 children by her husband) decided she couldnt have the 4th. This happened when I was in my early 20s and I could not understand her decision and it very nearly ended our friendship. I was strongly opposed to abortion and deemed her cruel and selfish. 10 years on - I found myself in a loving relationship, lots of plans (none including kids). And I fell pregnant.I never wanted kids and was in no way maternal. Went to the Doc to talk about options (and he was very open minded for an Irish Doc) In the next two to three weeks spoke with agencies that "supported" women in my position. Some hid under the blanket of supporting the womans choice and others were more blatant with their propeganda. Bottom line: Once pregnant I could never have aborted. The thing I really didnt appreciate was the "support" that was offered to me. If I had been 16 facing this life changing thing in my life the "support" agencies would have lead me to believe having an abortion would leave me baron. Adoption was out of the question unless one of my family were going to step forward ( in a country where my cousin had to go through 8 years of jumping through hoops to be allowed to adopt from Eastern Europe). So while I am not pro abortion, I do not appreciate feeling manipulated. (2.5 yrs on am so delighted to have a lil mini me playing havoc in the house) Just before I turned 19, I had big plans for my future and found myself expecting. Several well-meaning people close to me tried to get me to see the logic of terminating my pregnancy. They told me it would be easier on me than adoption, which I was seriously considering at the time. Twenty years and a few gray hairs later, I am so proud of the woman she's become and I have no doubt that she will in her own special way contribute to the betterment of this world.

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