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Misogyny - 8/5/2004 9:36:36 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman
Definition: A hatred of women.

** WARNING** Alternative philosophy follows. If this offends, bypass this post.

The initial note was pleasant enough. So was the polite "no thank you" that was sent in reply. The response to that, unfortunately, got ugly. "You're just another one of those domme bitches who doesn't know how to be a real woman", so it said. It makes one wonder what might have been if the reply had been "yes, please". How much time would have passed before some casual comment or innocent action caused the hatred that seems just below the surface to expose itself? It would be nice to think that this kind of thing is rare and isolated in our community. My experience is that it isn't. The natural urge to dominance in men, when repressed, can easily and quickly turn to loathing, I think. After it has turned, it is dominance no more. It is just hatred, and fear. The primal urge to posess, and protect, and provide has been replaced, maybe irrevocably, with something else.

I always cringe more than just a little when a militant feminist uses the word "misogyny' to mean "a point of view contrary to our agenda". There is real misogyny out there, and to misuse the word as a way to try to control behavior and thought distorts and obscures a reality of which we should be painfully aware.

A little food for thought, and maybe a spirited point of view or two.

Take care of yourselves.

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/5/2004 10:28:38 AM >
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 9:47:55 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, there is real misogyny out there and far too many people use the community and BDSM "relationships" to disguise their hatred. This applies to males and females alike. But what is it then when a person subjects themself to this behavior, knowing full well that it is dysfunctional as all hell? How can you really identify these behaviors? With all of the emphasis we place on respecting others kink, on being non judgemental, on minding our own flippin business... What do you do? How can you intervene...and should you?

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 9:59:41 AM   
theroebabe


Posts: 3155
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

It would be nice to think that this kind of thing is rare and isolated in our community. My experience is that it isn't. The natural urge to dominance in men, when repressed, can easily and quickly turn to loathing, I think. After it has turned, it is dominance no more. It is just hatred, and fear. The primal urge to posess, and protect, and provide has been replaced, maybe irrevocably, with something else.

Leonidas


Thankfully i have not experienced this as you have seen it as I am a sub. I have however felt that a lot of the so called doms, do have it and i can tell by the way they interact. There is only one that i know personally that treats women soley with the desire to demoralize, hurt, abuse, etc. women. I was one so i know.

The rest of the wannabes think that womens role on earth is to cater to their every whim as they are the MAN, like whoo hoo i can get a strap on and fuck you too bubba! I have seen much more of the second type rather than the first (thankfully).

It is a shame, that this type of person exists as it is mostly due to their upbringing and i feel in some cases genetic make up. I dont have any personal experience with women who hate men, so i cant address the flip side.

Roe

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Roe

People always ask me why I do these things . . .
It's because I can!

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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 10:43:59 AM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		Indeed.

I agree with you Leonidas. Misogyny is one of those "yelling fire in a theater" words like racist and rape. These words induce an emotional response, and so are often overused and often incorrectly used.

The thing that's so scary about men- and women-haters in bdsm are the rituals that supposidly make interactions safe: I'm talking about negotiation and safewords and so on. We get posters all the time who've been deceived by a partner who disregarded those "safeguards."

Granted, I'm not in a position to meet up with strangers, but if I were, I agree with Bailey--initial public play seems like a real wise idea.

That's what scares me about Goreans: you don't play, publicly or otherwise. There's no "partial slavery" there. It's an all or nothing type deal. The interaction surely does require honor and common sense. Who is to say all folks calling themselves Goreans have it?

Doesn't the idea of a R/L insane Gorean master scare the crap out of you?

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 12:13:55 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Who is to say all folks calling themselves Goreans have it?


Who is to say, indeed. That is why my advice to women seeking a Gorean collar always is, simply, don't. Run far, run fast, don't even think about it. It's difficult, and dangerous, and there is little to be gained for the vast majority. If you need an outlet to get a submission fix, there are far more user-friendly and safe venues in which to do it. Most women are fairly reasonable, and can be disuaded. Some, not so much. For the persistant ones, I can only advise that she spend a great deal of time without a collar and know both our ways and the man that she would call master extremely well before begging one.

quote:

Doesn't the idea of a R/L insane Gorean master scare the crap out of you?


Yep. Scares the crap out of me just about covers it. It is why we, unlike the BDSM community at large, can't be so "live and let live". Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so they say. Gorean men spend a great deal more time talking to each other than most communities (OK, except the gay ones). As relates to this thread, I have spent countless hours, either by myself or with other men, talking some man down out of the misogyny tree. Getting him to put his feet back on the ground, let go of being freaked out by his perceptions of being emasculated that put him up there in the first place, and getting him to recover some of his natural male pride and dignity. Until a man does so, he has absolutely no business with absolute power over a female slave.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/5/2004 12:16:35 PM >

(in reply to January)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 12:44:27 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What do you do? How can you intervene...and should you?


** thought better of posting this. It involves others who might be embarrassed if it were discussed publically

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/5/2004 12:54:59 PM >

(in reply to MrThorns)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 2:04:58 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: January

Granted, I'm not in a position to meet up with strangers, but if I were, I agree with Bailey--initial public play seems like a real wise idea.



I've heard this advice quite a bit. But I'm brand spanking new and very private and really couldn't imagine being involved in public play -- that's not me, at least not now. In the very short time that I've been on the net I have had a very similar email interaction (to the one noted by Leonidas above). It's easy to recognize those who wear their issues on their sleeves. My challenge is to weed through the more subtle types. And the best advice I've heard for that is just take it real slow.

(in reply to January)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 2:22:56 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		Just a thought here. Is it actually "hate" the majority of the time, or "fear"? Misuse of the word Misogyny is addressed, but I think the word "hate" is actually misused far more often. Although that would probably be another thread.

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Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to arayofsunshine55)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 2:38:12 PM   
gitta


Posts: 110
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Lady Beckett,

my dictionary defines it as >> hatred of women

smiles,
gitta

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 4:38:07 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I believe some Doms genuinely have a problem with the idea of female Dominants. Why they have this problem probably stems deep and from a variety of issues from each.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
The natural urge to dominance in men, when repressed, can easily and quickly turn to loathing, I think. After it has turned, it is dominance no more. It is just hatred, and fear. The primal urge to posess, and protect, and provide has been replaced, maybe irrevocably, with something else.

I agree with this statement. Though—and I’m not sure if this was your point or not Leonidas so if it is excuse the redundancy—I’m not sure that that a man, whether he be a dominant one or not, having a problem with female domination is misogyny.

Misogyny is hatred of women. Hatred is a strong aversion, an intense dislike or even ill will towards the subject. Is it that strong? Perhaps. Is it sexism? Perhaps it all goes hand in hand. I’m not sure I’m ready to make that statement though.

This attitude, whether we decide to call it misogyny or not, does exist however. I’ve experienced it inside and outside the BDSM community. I experience it most often in the business world to be quite honest. What I’ve experienced is disrespect toward and a fear of certain women, women like myself who are knowledgeable, experienced, steadfast and whip smart.

I’ve heard over and over that when a man asserts himself in the business world, he’s a born leader. When a woman asserts herself in the business world, she’s just a bitch. Probably most men do not think that way but then again, they do not necessarily step up and tell those who make inappropriate comments to shut their pie holes. There are however a few and I appreciate them very much. We have the impression things are changing, but really they are not. Political correctness is often a projected façade.

So again, I understand Leonidas when he says:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I always cringe more than just a little when a militant feminist uses the word "misogyny' to mean "a point of view contrary to our agenda".

But this attitude which many women, whether they be dominant, submissive, switch or vanilla, have had to deal with needs a descriptor.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 4:47:53 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Angelika,

I gave you a false impression there. The woman in question was a slave. He was, in effect, calling her a domme in slave's clothing. The man in question wasn't responding to domination, just rejection. It was his response that was telling, not the context.

quote:

But this attitude which many women, whether they be dominant, submissive, switch or vanilla, have had to deal with needs a descriptor.


They should just call it sexism. As you did above. If you call it misogyny, then what do you call the hatred of women?

We could argue for days about leadership, and sociobiological drives when it comes to sex and power, but lets not. [grin]

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 4:51:59 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Hi Angelika,

I gave you a false impression there. The woman in question was a slave. He was, in effect, calling her a domme in slave's clothing. The man in question wasn't responding to domination, just rejection. It was his response that was telling, not the context.


Ooo! This man has more issues then I thought! ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
quote:

But this attitude which many women, whether they be dominant, submissive, switch or vanilla, have had to deal with needs a descriptor.


They should just call it sexism. As you did above. If you call it misogyny, then what do you call the hatred of women?


That was sort of my point, yes. But then again, can you, or anyone else, give me an example of misogyny? I have my opinions, but I want to hear from someone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
We could argue for days about leadership, and sociobiological drives when it comes to sex and power, but lets not. [grin]


Damn! And I was soooooo looking forward to a rumble with you! ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 5:03:51 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		Hi sunshine,

When I was praising the safety of playing in public in my post, I was imagining a meet-up between two near-strangers who lived on different coasts.

To be sure, dating a local near-stranger (taking it slow) is a perfectly reasonable alternative. Sinergy, a frequent poster here, says he's looking for his new partner that way.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to arayofsunshine55)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 5:21:30 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
The natural urge to dominance in men, when repressed, can easily and quickly turn to loathing, I think. After it has turned, it is dominance no more. It is just hatred, and fear. The primal urge to posess, and protect, and provide has been replaced, maybe irrevocably, with something else.


I saw this earlier also, and got sidetracked on something else. That primal urge to posess, protect, and provide is not exclusive to dominant males, nor is the satisfaction of same. I am also not convinced that all males have that "natural urge to dominance", or at least not as a dominant factor. We've seen this demonstrated in very young male children with "real guy" Dads, and apparently well balanced influences.

Gitta- I know what the dictionary says. My thought, when I said what I did, was that when people say "hate", I don't believe that's what they mean. It has become one of those "catch all" words that can mean "I kinda don't like that", to "I'd rather kiss Joey Green with the leaking acne on every millimeter of his face and neck", or "I'm afraid of that because I don't understand it." And I think that "I'm afraid of that because I don't understand it." is what kind of "Hate" Misogyny is. Regardless of whether the source is male, or female.

A bit of humor on the side. My daughter came to me the other day and asked for my "Wagnall's". I told her it was a Funk & Wagnall's. She said, "I can't say the "F" word, Mama." lol (I have a Webster's) When she was at her Father's, during a discussion he used a word she didn't know, and he told her to look it up in the Funk & Wagnall's. She thought he said the Fuckin Wagnall's, and she thought that's what it was.

She's an honor student, but I don't know how...

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 5:43:22 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I am also not convinced that all males have that "natural urge to dominance", or at least not as a dominant factor. We've seen this demonstrated in very young male children with "real guy" Dads, and apparently well balanced influences.


I'm not convinced of it either. Iwill and I had a long (and heated) discussion about this. While I think that the majority of males want to assert dominance, there are some who don't. This behavior can also be seen in other higher primates. Dominant males attract females who see them as protectors and providers, but there are other males who get themselves into the gene pool, basically, by sucking up to the females. It is an alternative fitness strategy that does work, and so perpetuates itself. I'm absolutely sure it goes on. Conversely, there are females whose survival instinct is to hunt for themselves, so to speak, rather than seek out a mate that will be protector and provider for them and their young. It stands to reason that such a female might decide that one of the "suck up" males suits her just fine when it comes time to "scratch the itch" as they say.

Male dominance and femine attraction to same might be the rule of our nature, but as with any rule, there are numerous exceptions. Taken to an extreme, any generalization is a lie.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/5/2004 5:44:19 PM >

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 6:28:09 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		I'm tired, and therefore probably shouldn't respond in this condition, lol, but I don't want to risk losing the thought. So I ask that you forgive me if I come off a bit edgier than my usual charming self. I resent, more than just a little bit, the apparent general thought, that submissive males are all passive, effeminate "suck ups". They certainly are not. And in fact, are quite adept at protecting, and providing, etc. They simply do so for their Mistress.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 6:33:26 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

the apparent general thought, that submissive males are all passive, effeminate "suck ups". They certainly are not. And in fact, are quite adept at protecting, and providing, etc. They simply do so for their Mistress.


It is a logical error, Lady Beckett.

The statement that some male submissives are effeminate suck-ups

X is a male submissive

therefore, X is an effeminate suck-up

The conclusion does not follow from the hypothesis.

JM, CBW, BTYG

Sinergy

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 6:36:43 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		I don't like algebra.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 6:46:37 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I don't like algebra.


Lady Beckett is a Domme

Lady Beckett does not like algebra

All Dommes do not like algebra.

Duh.

JM, CBW, BTYG

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Misogyny - 8/5/2004 7:06:29 PM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Myself, I think that the number of males falling into this catergory has much to do with their lack of self worth. The fact that a woman can stand on her own two feet, care for herself, family, and bring home the bacon, aggravates their feelings of ineptitute. As to a submissive/slave male being weak, I don't think so. I know very few Dominants (male or female) that have the intestinal fortitude to withstand the verbal abuse that is heaped on them without responding in kind. They are comfortable with themselves. But they will step up to the plate to protect their dominant if the same were said about them. For that matter, many of the submissive males I know make it a point to help the lone female with a flat tire, or come to a vanilla womans assistance when they are in physical danger. Not a wimp to me. But then I don't think of female sub/slaves as weak either. Just my opinion. Sundew

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(in reply to Leonidas)
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