RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II.

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slvemike4u -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:25:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Regardless of motivation (hatred towards woman, blacks, gays etc) a "hate crime" is also qualified by the committing of a criminal offense---ie..assault, murder, rape, destruction of one's property etc. I don't think effigys are considered criminal offenses. Though I could be wrong. I wonder whether a good lawyer could argue that the defacement of campus (ie., private) property with an offensive hateful effigy constitutes property crime. I guess a lawyer could try to argue anything. I would imagine arguing to have the effigy-hanging qualify as "intimidation" might be a more likely and successful attempt to get it qualified as a hate crime; after all, the 'offense' is towards Obama, and not really the campus property. Unless the Univeristy decided to sue the offending students. Marietoo are you quite sure nobody on the grounds of that school were intimidated by the sight of a black man hanging in effigy,surely the University of Kentucky has minority students amongst its student body,Another poster alluded to "young college kids" and what they"were trying to communicate" well if he is allowed to speculate a harmless message...perhaps those young people speculated as to a darker and more foreboding message contained in this act.Would you deny the possibility that a young black man or woman might have a visceral reaction to such a sight.

MzMia -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:26:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Too true too. Time will tell. No offense to Mia, but I hope she's mistaken and that this isn't a sign of uglier things to come. LOL, kittin I don't wish this. As a Black person, I can guarantee you the shit has not even started yet. Believe that and take it to the bank. Senator Obama is well aware of what he is facing. He knows only to well America's history. As long as Senator Obama is willing and ready to go forth, many will always stand behind him. kittin, I am so happy about this historic election, I will not let the evil in this world, steal my joy.

giveeverything -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:26:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Mia - I hesitated over whether to post this thread or not. I hope that at the worst this is a stupid prank by a drunk student. I think this kind of thing should be sanctioned by the law: free speech should not mean having the right to express any violent and inhuman impulses that may lurk beneath the surface of less enlightened individuals. It's also relivant to examine if the action has the effect (not just the intent) to make an entire group of people feel intimidated. This is the issue with burning crosses, for example, they make entire communities feel unsafe. A person can argue that it should be covered under free speech but the US Supreme Court has ruled other wise. Bleeck... I hate these threads and Kittin, you have more confidence than I do in the collective wisdom of posters. This all just makes me feel discouraged.

kittinSol -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:29:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Too true too. Time will tell. No offense to Mia, but I hope she's mistaken and that this isn't a sign of uglier things to come. LOL, kittin I don't wish this. As a Black person, I can guarantee you the shit has not even started yet. Believe that and take it to the bank. Oh, I know you don't want for this kind of thing to happen - nobody in their right mind does...

MadRabbit -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:29:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Marietoo are you quite sure nobody on the grounds of that school were intimidated by the sight of a black man hanging in effigy,surely the University of Kentucky has minority students amongst its student body,Another poster alluded to "young college kids" and what they"were trying to communicate" well if he is allowed to speculate a harmless message...perhaps those young people speculated as to a darker and more foreboding message contained in this act.Would you deny the possibility that a young black man or woman might have a visceral reaction to such a sight. With all this straw, we can make another effigy and hang it here in the forums.

giveeverything -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:29:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Most Americans with even a small amount of education and intelligence realize what lynchings have meant in relationship to Black people. To even debate this, is beneath me. I offer those that really "don't see" it or "get it" this. I know many want to play this "game" and pretend they are ignorant. But for the few, that really want to get a clue, you might read more about the history of lynchings and Black people in America. By the way, there are millions of links in relationship to lynchings, hate crimes, and the Black experience in America. I would even suggest reading about SLAVERY, and the conditions of Blacks and how they were treated after slavery in America. Without Sanctuary http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/lynchingera.html Mia, I avoided this thread because I just couldn't bear to watch what people would write. I agree with you and wish it wasn't so painful to read through this slough.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:30:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia It is the people that don't have the education of someone in Junior High School, and claim to not know what "lynchings" symbolize is what I am enjoying. You know... this kind of knee-jerk reaction against a shameful aspect of history happens all over the world. People don't like to be reminded of what happened in the not so distant past: the weight of shame is heavy. I wish som would shrug the shame off and face up to the past. It's the only way to move on. Many people are in denial about slavery, about what slavery actually is and was, and the treatment of Black people during and after slavery. Many people are in denial about how the jews were treated during and after WW2. Always remember kittin, DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt. My ancestors were oppressed by the British, who arguably tried genocide against them. It was only a few hundred years ago, and is the direct cause of me and my family not being rich, famous and politically powerful (or at least, my father claimed that he father told him that his father said, that his grand-daddy asserted, that his granny's grandfather went through hell to survive that time ...). Why have so many people forget the tragedy, the murder, the rapes and the deaths of my ancestors? I deserved recompense! I deserve reparations! I deserve respect for the horror that my ancestors went through! Firm

slvemike4u -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Well MadRabbit to achieve this utopia you dream of....would require a lack of knowledge of our own dark history where lynchings were used to intimidate...How would you propose to achiee this ignorance in the general population. It's actually not that hard. People just have to stop assuming they know what the meaning of a symbol is (which you don't). It's the height of arrogance and racial biast. I find that your so ready to condemn some college kids to jail when you have no facts as to what they were trying to communicate to be even more disqusting then the symbol itself. God help me if your ever on my jury. MadRabbit,I believe this is the second time I have been moved to ask you to not worry about what I do and what i do not understand...believe me I know full well what the hanging of a black man in effigy means in this country.Unlike you I am under no illusion's about this country's racial history. Denial is indeed a most convienant thing....One last point if I was sitting on a jury,I would in fact sit and listen to all the evidence presented before reaching,what in my mind would be as fair and just decision as I possibly could...but since this is merely a forum I feel no such responsibility in putting forth an opinion...even if such a jury was sitting in judgement of such a fine upstanding citizen as yourself.... Okay....so we have established that you are making claims to knowing something that you don't know. Thank you for your continued ignorance and racial biast. MadRabbit this is the second time on one thread where you have accused me of "ignorance and racial biast"...as soon as I figure out what "biast" is,I might start to feel insulted.BTW...I do believe there is a violation of TOS going on here....but I can't be sure what with the whole "biast' confusion and everything

giveeverything -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:32:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY My ancestors were oppressed by the British, who arguably tried genocide against them. It was only a few hundred years ago, and is the direct cause of me and my family not being rich, famous and politically powerful (or at least, my father claimed that he father told him that his father said, that his grand-daddy asserted, that his granny's grandfather went through hell to survive that time ...). Why have so many people forget the tragedy, the murder, the rapes and the deaths of my ancestors? I deserved recompense! I deserve reparations! I deserve respect for the horror that my ancestors went through! Firm Your attempt at satire (I'm guessing that's what is was) just comes off as mean and cheap.

MadRabbit -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:33:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u MadRabbit this is the second time on one thread where you have accused me of "ignorance and racial biast"...as soon as I figure out what "biast" is,I might start to feel insulted.BTW...I do believe there is a violation of TOS going on here....but I can't be sure what with the whole "biast' confusion and everything Hmmmm.... scans the passage Nope...no real argument in there. Run along now. Edited to Add : No need to get all whiny and cranky just because you got caught talking out your ass. It happens to the best of us. Don't be a sore loser.

MadRabbit -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:38:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: giveeverything quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY My ancestors were oppressed by the British, who arguably tried genocide against them. It was only a few hundred years ago, and is the direct cause of me and my family not being rich, famous and politically powerful (or at least, my father claimed that he father told him that his father said, that his grand-daddy asserted, that his granny's grandfather went through hell to survive that time ...). Why have so many people forget the tragedy, the murder, the rapes and the deaths of my ancestors? I deserved recompense! I deserve reparations! I deserve respect for the horror that my ancestors went through! Firm Your attempt at satire (I'm guessing that's what is was) just comes off as mean and cheap. I read it as someone trying to make a valid point about how people are attempting to throw logic, reason, and using fact instead of assumption out the window by filling this thread with emotionally charged racial issues in order to obfuscate the issue.

Blaakmaan -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:39:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: giveeverything quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY My ancestors were oppressed by the British, who arguably tried genocide against them. It was only a few hundred years ago, and is the direct cause of me and my family not being rich, famous and politically powerful (or at least, my father claimed that he father told him that his father said, that his grand-daddy asserted, that his granny's grandfather went through hell to survive that time ...). Why have so many people forget the tragedy, the murder, the rapes and the deaths of my ancestors? I deserved recompense! I deserve reparations! I deserve respect for the horror that my ancestors went through! Firm Your attempt at satire (I'm guessing that's what is was) just comes off as mean and cheap. No problem! Take it up with the British! I trust that your granddaddy's daddy's daddy told you where to find Great Britain, or you are out of luck!

marieToo -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:45:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Hey! This is all old news. [;)] Halloween Decoration or Hate Crime Looks kinda like Hillary. I wonder if it was an early Obama supporter that put it up? [:D] Firm omg. Call me nuts, but the first person it looked like to me was the Queen of England.

Kirata -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:45:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan Take it up with the British! I trust that your granddaddy's daddy's daddy told you where to find Great Britain, or you are out of luck! I think his point was that his granddaddy's daddy's daddy (etc) are dead now, and so are the Brits who did whatever to them. It's a point worth considering. K.

slvemike4u -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:47:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u MadRabbit this is the second time on one thread where you have accused me of "ignorance and racial biast"...as soon as I figure out what "biast" is,I might start to feel insulted.BTW...I do believe there is a violation of TOS going on here....but I can't be sure what with the whole "biast' confusion and everything Hmmmm.... scans the passage Nope...no real argument in there. Run along now. Edited to Add : No need to get all whiny and cranky just because you got caught talking out your ass. It happens to the best of us. Don't be a sore loser. And now you ask me to run away...ROFLMAO...listen bunny wabbit,I don't do whiney and cranky...and I don't often lose.But back to point....your whole argument is that because the black person in question happens to be a politician this is not an act of racial bias or a hate crime...does that about sum up your argument.... Please supply a link the last time a politician was hung in effigy at the University of Kentucky,since this is such a time honored form of political expression I imagine you will be right back with this post and attending links....run along now.I will be waiting.

giveeverything -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:48:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blaakmaan [ No problem! Take it up with the British! I trust that your granddaddy's daddy's daddy told you where to find Great Britain, or you are out of luck! I'm not sure I'm following you on this.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 8:53:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: giveeverything Your attempt at satire (I'm guessing that's what is was) just comes off as mean and cheap. Making a point. Sorry if you are offended (well, not really). There is no single group that has not been oppressed. There is no single group that has advanced themselves without taking present responsibility to improve their lot. The racial disharmony in the US is - in large extent nowadays - perpetuated by claims of a victim status, and by people who seek power through the manipulation of victim status. I refuse to accept "white guilt", and my personal philosophy is that you do no favors by encouraging anyone or any group to excuse their present position in the world (or lack thereof) by throwing the responsibility onto historical causes or external causes, even if there is historical accuracy in their claims. As Mad Rabbit has said, there is no proof of the intent of the effigy, but our political environment - and posters such as kittin - seek to use the event to discredit one political viewpoint, and enhance another. Stirring up racial enmity for political purposes. In other words "playing the race card". Firm

marieToo -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 9:00:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Regardless of motivation (hatred towards woman, blacks, gays etc) a "hate crime" is also qualified by the committing of a criminal offense---ie..assault, murder, rape, destruction of one's property etc. I don't think effigys are considered criminal offenses. Though I could be wrong. I wonder whether a good lawyer could argue that the defacement of campus (ie., private) property with an offensive hateful effigy constitutes property crime. I guess a lawyer could try to argue anything. I would imagine arguing to have the effigy-hanging qualify as "intimidation" might be a more likely and successful attempt to get it qualified as a hate crime; after all, the 'offense' is towards Obama, and not really the campus property. Unless the Univeristy decided to sue the offending students. Marietoo are you quite sure nobody on the grounds of that school were intimidated by the sight of a black man hanging in effigy,surely the University of Kentucky has minority students amongst its student body,Another poster alluded to "young college kids" and what they"were trying to communicate" well if he is allowed to speculate a harmless message...perhaps those young people speculated as to a darker and more foreboding message contained in this act.Would you deny the possibility that a young black man or woman might have a visceral reaction to such a sight. I'm not sure what any of them thought, and I wouldn't assume that the "minority" students were offended at all, nevermind assume they're offended because Obama is black, specifically. My point was more towards what legal implications this would or wouldn't have with regards to this actually qualifying as a hate crime, since I don't see assault, destruction of personal property etc. I do understand that "intimidation" can also be considered a hate crime, but of course that intimidation would first have to be established, not assumed.

slvemike4u -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 9:02:40 PM)
Firm I am quite sure that personal responsibilty thing works out fine for you.As you point out no sense in letting historical accuracy muddy things up....your way is much simpler.

slvemike4u -> RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. (10/29/2008 9:07:17 PM)
And yet Marietoo there seem to be alot of posters here assuming no malice of a racial nature was intended.Seems to me "assuming"cuts both ways here,none of us are in a court of law.

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