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Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 7:12:49 AM   
ChampagneMojito


Posts: 77
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: UK
Status: offline
A question mostly directed at dominants.

For those involved in long term D/s relationships, I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship? and does this bring it's own pressures? How can it be shared?

I'm really speaking from the point of view that given the very candid nature of D/s, everything is discussed and the "infrastructure" is established, so even when the parties might not be at their best, the rules of governence kick in. The participants can be less than perfect but the dynamic rises above this. It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.

Many thanks,
t.

_____________________________

I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naïve or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman. ~Anaïs Nin
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 7:26:39 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChampagneMojito
For those involved in long term D/s relationships, I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship? and does this bring it's own pressures? How can it be shared?

There is an explicit, not implicit expectation to do the absolute best we can for our marriage. When I collared my wife, I looked at her and said, "Gone are the days when we do 'enough', for our marriage. Now the new standard is 'our absolute best'." Does this bring it's own pressures? Of course it does, for the two of us. We welcome those pressures. Those pressures and the resultant growth are, in fact, exactly why we are so happy nowadays. Your last question here, "How can it be shared?" has got me utterly baffled. My wife and I are a team. How can it not be shared? I am not solely responsible for anything. We are a team, cooperating to the best of our abilities to reach a mutual goal. Collectively, we succeed or fail. There is not individual scoring. In my role as the dominant, I accept responsibility for all the decisions I make and all their outcomes. But she has her own set of responsibilities that accrue to her as my slave, as my wife, and as my life-partner. Foremost among them is helping keep the ship from foundering should I lose my course.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 7:32:38 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think most folks would like others to see on the good of their relationships and not the bad unless you are close friends, family or a therapist. I don't think that is limited to Ds or BDSM.

My relationship with Fox isn't perfect because we are not perfect individuals and we also have the complexities of poly and different careers to balance as well. I hope I don't pretend it is perfect to you all.

When we are at an event then we both feel some pressure to be a bit more perfect. I have my writing and book reviews that people expect me to be able to talk about. Fox worries about representing me in a good way. He stresses himself out about it too much in my opinion. The more time goes by though, the more confident we are in ourselves, the less stress we feel. This past GLLA I didn't even dress up nice to staff the book table though I did for my readings.

We both reflect on each other though generally I'd say we are more focused on presenting me well at such events. Not fair perhaps but the way things are for us.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 10/30/2008 7:33:18 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 8:08:53 AM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Our relationship is imperfect, as are we.
I don't think He feels the need to work harder due to His dominance.
But He's always been a perfectionist about everything.
When it comes down to it, we're just people.
We live a bit differently than most, but...we're still just ordinary people.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 8:08:55 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChampagneMojito


A question mostly directed at dominants.

For those involved in long term D/s relationships, I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship? and does this bring it's own pressures? How can it be shared?

I'm really speaking from the point of view that given the very candid nature of D/s, everything is discussed and the "infrastructure" is established, so even when the parties might not be at their best, the rules of governence kick in. The participants can be less than perfect but the dynamic rises above this. It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.

Many thanks,
t.

Well, of course!

Who doesn't want to be seen as all things being wonderful?  That the structure is so good and defined that it can rise above the imperfections of the actual humans participating in it.

I hate to break this to you.  It's not.

If you accept the rule that the participants aren't perfect, you must accept that the dynamic isn't perfect.  While it might be wonderful to think it isn't flawed, it stands only to reason that it is, because the people involved are flawed.  While each participant might be better for it, might rise above the sum of the parts, we can only ever be who we really are.

From the desk of the imperfect LadyPact.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 8:19:06 AM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Gawd, you lot talk about the strangest things now you can't smoke in the pub any more 

Seriously, you raise an interesting point. What attracted me to BDSM is that, for me at least, it is a negotiated relationship - and that implies goals. I find perfection a bit of a loaded term, because perfection implies there is a standard, and I've learned that, where Humans are concerned, there really aren't hard and fast rules.

I see D/s folks with "converted" relationships, though, and this may not apply to them - although I like to think that any kind of D/s "dynamic" does entail more agreement than vanilla does, it stopped being natural when hunter gatherers developed language. I realized a number of years ago that this entire vanilla principle, a relationship solely based on this evaporative quality called "love", is so fluid it is almost doomed to failure.

But in my world, yes, a certain level of success has to be attained,  I have a nassty habit of firing subs that don't measure up. From my corporate career, I brought into my D/s life that if you do not strive for greatness, an compromise, you doom yourself to mediocrity. I am realistic enough to not call that perfection, though - in a perfect world, there would be smoking pubs, which slowly you can only find in Hong Kong any more. That is why I live in Virginia, still - here, you can have a fag with your pint, for as long as you keep your sidearm holstered.

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 8:46:01 AM   
ChampagneMojito


Posts: 77
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChampagneMojito


A question mostly directed at dominants.

For those involved in long term D/s relationships, I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship? and does this bring it's own pressures? How can it be shared?

I'm really speaking from the point of view that given the very candid nature of D/s, everything is discussed and the "infrastructure" is established, so even when the parties might not be at their best, the rules of governence kick in. The participants can be less than perfect but the dynamic rises above this. It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.

Many thanks,
t.

Well, of course!

Who doesn't want to be seen as all things being wonderful?  That the structure is so good and defined that it can rise above the imperfections of the actual humans participating in it.

I hate to break this to you.  It's not.


If you accept the rule that the participants aren't perfect, you must accept that the dynamic isn't perfect.  While it might be wonderful to think it isn't flawed, it stands only to reason that it is, because the people involved are flawed.  While each participant might be better for it, might rise above the sum of the parts, we can only ever be who we really are.

From the desk of the imperfect LadyPact.



I'm not saying that anything is perfect, more the point that people involved in BDSM tend to have experienced a certain level of introspection. Figuring it all out so to speak. You quite often see on the boards people who are happy and feel that they have got it right. I'm just wondering if this level of introspection and even forensic analysis of how we define our relationship creates it's own pressures. I think it can, there are not per se bad or good forces, but potentially an added element of the D/s dynamic.

_____________________________

I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naïve or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman. ~Anaïs Nin

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 8:57:47 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ChampagneMojito said:
more the point that people involved in BDSM tend to have experienced a certain level of introspection. Figuring it all out so to speak. You quite often see on the boards people who are happy and feel that they have got it right. I'm just wondering if this level of introspection and even forensic analysis of how we define our relationship

I would pretty much disagree with this assertion. To my knowledge, BDSM people are no more introspective than anyone else... arguably less so in some odd ways. My own impression is that calling what is done here "forensic analysis" is comparable to saying what happens on CSI Miami is forensic analysis. From my own standpoint, I have always been fascinated with relationships (mine foremost among them). So from the "examined life" standpoint, M/s gave me nothing really but a new model of how a relationship might work... one that seems to work out well for us.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 9:13:23 AM   
bound4more


Posts: 128
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline
quote:

For those involved in long term D/s relationships, I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship? and does this bring it's own pressures? How can it be shared?


Of course. I can expect anything I want but then I just set myself up for disappointment. I started thinking long ago, what exactly is perfection? My conclusion: whatever our own idea of it is. Ha ha. Your idea of perfection will mostly likely be quite a bit different than mine. I think the most important thing to give up is "my side, your side" type of attitude. Pressure for me is also a matter of perspective. I can perceive something as "doing something to me" and feel pressure, or I can view that same situation as an interesting one.

quote:

It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.


I don't see the dominant as solely responsible for anything. It's an exchange, an agreement between 2 or more. Each person in the relationship is equally responsible for the whole.


_____________________________

You can tell who someone really is by how they act

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 10:15:13 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChampagneMojito


A question mostly directed at dominants.

For those involved in long term D/s relationships, I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship?
Certainly not flawless, but I think I feel more responsible for "checking in" in a D/s relationship. I think in my vanilla relationships there wasn't enough mechanism for this kind of checking in and seeing how things are going, whereas in a D/s relationship "checking in" (god, I need another phrase!) seems appropriate at just about any juncture - if anything, I've tended to overdo it rather than neglect it of late.
quote:


I'm really speaking from the point of view that given the very candid nature of D/s, everything is discussed and the "infrastructure" is established, so even when the parties might not be at their best, the rules of governence kick in. The participants can be less than perfect but the dynamic rises above this. It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.

Many thanks,
t.

I solve this by being involved with women who are smarter than me.
Seriously; I've never felt like I was towing the barge* all by myself. My partner is there offering support in whatever form I might need, including sharing her own perspective.

(* - please substitute more romantic metaphor.)

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 11:12:10 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I think that sometimes there is more "pressure" on the dominant to guide the ship but there again, isn't that what we signed up for?  The submissive submits to us with the expectation that we will guide the ship.  Now...do they expect it to be more flawlessly done than what they see in many non-D/s relationships?  Perhaps...maybe because they agreed to that guidance and do their best to yield the control necessary to take over the ship of the dynamic.  That can sometimes lead to problems...checking in on the dynamic when the submissive's life is overwhelming them in ways unrelated to the dynamic and having the submissive tell you that you are being too intense.  It can result in your every move being checked against that of other dominants that the submissive has known longer or whose relationships she admires instead of being looked at in context of her and you.  It can result in being measured against what she thinks...in her head...you should do.  Those are problems stemming from many sources and yes, it can be difficult to get to them and sometimes, pushing to get to them can end up costing you the relationship.  But that doesn't have to equate to the "poor old dominant, weighed down by all the responsibility and the fault".  The submissives can be reminded...whether gently or firmly or harshly...of their part in the dynamic and whether or not that includes her determining the game plan in her head and imposing it on the dynamic or doing what she agreed to do and follow.  If your dominance does not match her idea of what it should be and yet, it is what she asked for, who is wrong?  If your dominance does not match what she has come to expect from you and it is NOT what you promised, then who is wrong?

(in reply to Jeptha)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 11:14:30 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship?


Why would you, or anyone, put that burden on a relationship? Flawless relationships are simply not possible. Everyone has their faults, their weak moments, their fears. My relationship with my slave is to "have the very best relationship we can". That encourages us to do our best, AND allows us to show our faults from time to time without the fear of incrimination.

Really. Take the pressure off yourself.

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 11:21:16 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		I consider perfection to be intimidating (and not in a good way).  I've found it to be the flaws in people that I find the most attractive and compelling, and the same can be said about my relationships. 

As Sir Dominic eluded to right there above me - without the fear of recrimmination, we can be most comfortable in our own fallibility.  Of course there is a balancing act between slovenly acceptance and realistic expectations to do your best.  Striving to be better, and working toward self-improvement aside.  It is nice when you don't have to worry that every mis-step is going to bring about the relationship equivalent of armageddon.

WinD

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 10/30/2008 11:30:10 AM >

(in reply to SirDominic)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 11:33:18 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		There will never be perfection, whenever we hit a snag we just deal with it and then move along. Those bumps and tumbles mean we BOTH work on it. Whoever sees the problem first brings it up, and we address it right away. In that respect it is very much an equal partnership because we both take responsibility for the relationship, because we both want it to continue on happily.

As for a dynamic kicking in and 'rising above' I don't think I understand that at all. When we have problems is when the dynamic is most likely to change, afterall we govern the dynamic, it does not govern us. Perhaps we are a bit different in that respect.

Ultimately though, while authority is his, I don't sit back and wait for him to cook up solutions and suggestions, I do it myself and then present him with what I have come up with. That applies to good times, and the bad. Afterall, that's why he keeps me, to ease his burdens and make him happy.. not put more stress and pressure on him.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 11:36:09 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChampagneMojito
I'm not saying that anything is perfect, more the point that people involved in BDSM tend to have experienced a certain level of introspection. Figuring it all out so to speak. You quite often see on the boards people who are happy and feel that they have got it right. I'm just wondering if this level of introspection and even forensic analysis of how we define our relationship creates it's own pressures. I think it can, there are not per se bad or good forces, but potentially an added element of the D/s dynamic.

I suppose it could, if you let it.  Just like a 'keeping up with the Jones' mentality  could in the vanilla world.  We can put undue pressures on ourselves for a myrad of reasons.  Are the necessary?  No.  Are our dynamics going to be better for it?  Probably not. 


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 11:37:33 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I do not believe that any relationship can ever be "perfect", they are all in some way a tiny bit flawed. The reason for that is simple we are humans we are all flawed in some way. But with that said we can strive to have the best relationship as possible.

My male sub and I are equals in this relationship, team mates even, though we have different roles. I think everyone would like a perfect relationship but can it be done? I don't think so, I believe that we can come close if we really try.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 11:48:00 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChampagneMojito


A question mostly directed at dominants.

For those involved in long term D/s relationships, I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship? and does this bring it's own pressures? How can it be shared?

I'm really speaking from the point of view that given the very candid nature of D/s, everything is discussed and the "infrastructure" is established, so even when the parties might not be at their best, the rules of governence kick in. The participants can be less than perfect but the dynamic rises above this. It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.

Many thanks,
t.


What makes anyone think that there is a sub catagory for D/s relationships???? 

Ya know my Father gave me a bit of advice one of the few that I've remembered.  Try your best every day.  That doesn't mean you will be the best but give it your best damn shot at it.  If you fail and you will, we all do at something in our lives.  You can move onto the the next task knowing that you gave it all. 

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 12:40:49 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

I'm really speaking from the point of view that given the very candid nature of D/s, everything is discussed and the "infrastructure" is established, so even when the parties might not be at their best, the rules of governence kick in. The participants can be less than perfect but the dynamic rises above this. It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.

Not sure where you got this bit, but the bolded phrase is pure garbage.

Any dynamic, and any relationship, is the joint responsibility of all involved. In a D/s context, it is the slave's responsibility to submit and follow just as it is the dominant's responsibility to command and lead. Each must work at bringing the best of themselves to the relationship, and each must work at shedding the worst of themselves so as to not damage the relationship.

Everyone works at the relationship--and the dynamic--or it fails miserably. No one is "solely" responsible for anything pertaining to a relationship.

_____________________________



(in reply to ChampagneMojito)
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RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 12:46:20 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		There is much to be said in living true to who you are, as well as being able to relax in it, if you are doing so.  I think that living true to who you are means that you know who you are and are giving yourself and anyone in your life, your best, even if that means you have faults you might be working on.  If you are doing your best to live true to yourself, aren't you holding yourself accountable and wouldn't that mean you are comfortable with it?

If one is worried about it all, I think that takes away from things.  Even in being at fault for something or less than perfect, there is a certain ease we can have with ourselves when we accept who we are faults and all, with a mindset of refining ourselves.  This I think is a human factor and each person in a relationship has a responsiblity in it all, to themselves and one another.  I think worrying about it is a distractor of sorts.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Shared responsibilty - 10/30/2008 3:18:45 PM   
RealSub58


Posts: 1073
Status: offline 		Where to begin..... As a submissive woman, I have gone through several different types of relationships ~  nilla, M/s and D/s.  I am in process of evolving...as all should be, for we are human, imperfect and ever introspeculating, if growing.

ChampagneMojito wrote:   I was just wanting to ask if you ever felt there was an implicit expectation to have an almost flawless relationship? Never!  This would imply that I believe myself and my partner perfect.  and does this bring it's own pressures? If believed, would bring pressure we as people know is impossible to achieve.  Not speaking of those who already think they are Darwin or God's answer to the human race.   How can it be shared?  Relationship is defined (Freedictionary):1. The condition or fact of being related; connection or association.2. Connection by blood or marriage; kinship.3. A particular type of connection existing between people related to or having dealings with each other4. A romantic or sexual involvementTaken just from a cursory perspective, relationship implies  something shared.It seems to be clear that if expectations of said relationship are not expressed, explored then yes, sharing in the relationship is not occurring.  This has happened to me not only in nilla but in M/s. Leadership wrote:  "How can it be shared?" has got me utterly baffled. My wife and I are a team. How can it not be shared? I am not solely responsible for anything. We are a team, cooperating to the best of our abilities to reach a mutual goal. Collectively, we succeed or failThe only successful relationship I have had is with Sir, because of exactly this last paragraph.
ChampagneMojito wrote:   It must be extremely difficult at times for dominants, who are almost solely responsible for this.
This is a preposterous notion and opposed to what the concept of what relationship implicitly invokes.   The following explains.......
CreativeDominant wrote:  I think that sometimes there is more "pressure" on the dominant to guide the ship but there again, isn't that what we signed up for?Not without expectations and only if the D type wants total responsiblility which is foolish.  (See my journal for what this is all about.)7) Responsibility and Independence – Responsibility is not a quality instinctually instilled in all human beings. Some of us have to work really hard at leading a responsible life. The key is to realize that it is okay to assist someone, but the full burden of a responsibility should never be taken away from its owner. If it is, the owner will never learn, thus becoming forever dependant on others. Cause and effect is the ultimate guide to responsibility. “If I don’t get a job, I won’t have money to buy food.” Our success with responsibility will eventually lead to complete independence.
A relationship based upon headship and submission, relationally sharing expectations will have ups and downs but with each giving wholeheartedly, there would be no "sole responsibility" clause.   I dont believe in prenuptials or contracts in relationships either.  My Sir and I have a partnership (his word).  His word. I submit, he makes the decisions, we compromise if need be, but there is a light in the lighthouse (D) guiding the boat (s) to safe harbour.  Without shared responsiblity the lighthouse functions for naught and the boat wonders, steered independently but at times aimlessly.

(in reply to Lockit)
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