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RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 4:12:58 PM

DavanKael

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I wish to expand my initial post to include that not only did I feel comfortable immediately acting in submission to him, I trusted him, I felt safe with him; I recognized 'one of my people'. Oh, yeah, and he turned me on. :>
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 10/31/2008 4:15:04 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 41

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 5:32:23 PM

catize

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~Fast Reply~
Thanks to all who have posted and I will do my best to address the points made.

Several people have mentioned chemistry and attraction; this is a general reply to those thoughts.
I agree that we all have ‘something’ that attracts us to another. Some we can point to (for example intelligence) and other traits we may not be able to pinpoint exactly, but we know what we like.
I have met several men where all the right things were there. We became friends, but did not pursue anything beyond friendship; platonic with the added bonus of knowledge that we both had an interest in wiitwd.
It may have been that for one or other of us, it was not a good time in our life that factored in. I dunno. But what I’m saying is that everything can be in place and sometimes we, or at least I, still walk away.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to DavanKael)

Post #: 42

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 7:22:20 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

When we meet someone who is a potential D/s partner, what determines the yeah or nay? What makes us think this person is someone we would like to explore the dynamic with?

Whether or not they seem to possess specific qualities I look for. There are two sets of such qualities... a short list of things I feel are absolutely necessary, and a longer list of things I prefer but aren't necessary. Its not an exact science, but it is a fairly conscious process. I've learned over the years things I need to be happy with someone... and things that while nice aren't essential. Of course its still a flawed process... its based on my perceptions of the person... which may not be accurate, and can be further clouded by someone pretending to be other than they are. But time tends to sort all of that out.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 43

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 8:34:44 PM

catize

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quote:

My obedience to him is factual and I don't really know if I can respond to him in any other way. Right from our first interactions, I was deferring to him and his preferences. He is very confident in his wants and desires and expresses them in a direct manner.
*snipped*
What it is about him that makes this happen I don't think I can define or put into words. It is just how I react to him. He is dominant over me and I will submit to him.

I do not doubt that at all, Kyra!
But can it be said that the actions and mind set make it real, or do we adapt the actions to the relationship because that is what (and who) we want?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 44

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 8:37:24 PM

catize

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quote:

Do you believe that your ‘place’, whether subordinated or exalted, is factual?
My place? What exactly is my place? I am certainly not exalted in any way. Carol is not subordinated. The only place that I know of is my place as carol's life partner and yes, it is factual. I don't have a "place" as her master. I have a role. And that role is also factual, but it does not define ME somehow, it is simply a role in my life that I am filling. I didn't become smarter or wiser or whatever when she put the collar around her neck.

I debated which word to use, ‘role’ or ‘place’ mainly because the word role sometimes carries the connotation of acting, as in a role in a play.
I am curious. If the master has the authority, and the slave cedes that authority, what words would you choose other than exalted and subordinate?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 45

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 8:41:02 PM

catize

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quote:

It occurs to me that this is somewhat contradictory. Leaders receive due deference from those who follow because such deference is what sustains the dynamic. If you do not defer, you are not following, nor are they leading.

This is where I was hoping the discussion would go!
First, I don’t believe it is necessarily contradictory. Just because someone leads does not mean they are the best person for the job. Sometimes they rule by fear rather than any loyalty from their followers.
Sometimes they may indeed be good at holding the reins, but it doesn’t mean they are the only one capable of that role.

quote:

Deference is a characteristic of the dynamic, not of the people within the dynamic.

Perfect! I wish I would have said it that way, thank-you!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 46

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 8:43:35 PM

catize

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quote:

They didn't NEED me.. they wanted me. Doing what they do.. gave them a sense of pleasure and fulfillment... But even with all that it wasn't enough for me..... they have to be a person that I deeply admire as a person. Character that actually inspires me and someone that I admire. Lastly, I have to feel that with them in my life... I will be a better person as a result. That aspects of who they are will contribute to my goal of improving of who I am. Sure... there are many that I can enjoy my time with at the moment... do some fun things with.... but that just isn't enough for me.

I was hoping to hear from the dominant side of choosing partners! And looking back, perhaps what helped me decide to submit to R. and S. is that they didn’t make me feel as if just any submissive would do, they did not come across with that air of desperation that I had encountered in others.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 47

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 9:08:17 PM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
But can it be said that the actions and mind set make it real, or do we adapt the actions to the relationship because that is what (and who) we want?

Yes... *g*

For me it is kind of a chicken and egg thing, what came first? From the first time we started interacting, I deferred to his wishes. A large part of that was all about me and my perceptions of him and what I wanted. It just so happens that he really appreciated my perspective and it was compatible with his perspective of me. Then the interactions continued and I became his and he started actively exercising authority in my life and I started actively submitting to him. It becomes a feedback; the actions and mind set becomes an integral part of the relationship and this is what we want so we continue to act in a manner that keeps the relationship going.

I am not sure that they can be seperated, at least in my case. I do know that my deference to him initially was most likely more about me and what I perceive than it was about him. I mean at that point I didn't even know he had a hairy ass *eg*

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 48

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 9:10:30 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I do not doubt that at all, Kyra!
But can it be said that the actions and mind set make it real, or do we adapt the actions to the relationship because that is what (and who) we want?

The interesting aspect of Kyra is that she spent most of her adulthood trying to deal with relationships in the manner that she was conditioned by her parents (her mother in particular) But... using that approach... taking those said acitions and holding on to that mindset didn't give her the reality of happiness. In fact, she stay away from relatioships for a rather lengthy period before she came into my life. When she met me she was just beginning to discover and face a part of herself that was buried by all the junk that was piled on to her. Of course it might be valuable to others... but for her it was junk. In short, she found a ironic sense of freedom and happiness by deferring to me.. and the more she deferred the more she found a quiet sense of happiness that she never had her entire adult life. Alandra often associate her world and choices as a place of Freedom. I think there is alot of truth in this statement. It is indeed very freeing to be open, vulnerable and be who we are with our partners... at least that has been our experience

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 49

RE: Due Deference? - 10/31/2008 9:28:38 PM

catize

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quote:

I am not sure that they can be seperated, at least in my case. I do know that my deference to him initially was most likely more about me and what I perceive than it was about him. I mean at that point I didn't even know he had a hairy ass *eg*

I’m sure that bit of knowledge simply confirmed that you had made a wise choice!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 50

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 5:01:17 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I’m sure that bit of knowledge simply confirmed that you had made a wise choice!

As I recall... she weeped with tears of joy....

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 51

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 5:31:57 AM

dawntreader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kyra

I mean at that point I didn't even know he had a hairy ass *eg*

I’m sure that bit of knowledge simply confirmed that you had made a wise choice!

As I recall... she weeped with tears of joy....

LOL! That just changed the taste of my morning coffee!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 52

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 5:47:21 AM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kyra

I mean at that point I didn't even know he had a hairy ass *eg*

I’m sure that bit of knowledge simply confirmed that you had made a wise choice!

As I recall... she weeped with tears of joy....

LOL! That just changed the taste of my morning coffee!

Dacryphilia---aroused by tears

Hirsutebuttockphilia---aroused by a hairy ass? ( I made that one up)

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to dawntreader)

Post #: 53

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 5:54:25 AM

catize

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quote:

Of course its still a flawed process... its based on my perceptions of the person... which may not be accurate, and can be further clouded by someone pretending to be other than they are. But time tends to sort all of that out.

~Tries to peek at your short list~

I asked R. what he expected from the first meet. He said, “I hope for many things; I expect nothing.’

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 54

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 6:52:40 AM

Padriag

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A warm beautiful smile... that is an absolute must.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 55

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 10:29:30 AM

Barelily

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Joined: 10/8/2008
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Although I've met many Dom's in real life, mostly through the lifestyle my old Master and I enjoyed, there have only been two in my lifetime that I felt an immediate urge to completely submit to. That I somehow knew I would be able to trust with "me".
The first one was my old Master and it wasn't anything in particular that he said, but more of his tone and the way they carried himself, maybe you could call it his "aura".
The second one was much the same but it was topped off by something he said.
"If we are going to continue this conversation lets not make it a habit of me having to repeat myself - understood?".
This was followed up by a compliment, which let me know that A, I should not take this man lightly and B, He had some knowledge of the female brain

Disclaimer: This post is in response to the post made by catize and is based on my opinion and experiences only.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 56

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 12:47:25 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Just because someone leads does not mean they are the best person for the job. Sometimes they rule by fear rather than any loyalty from their followers.

Whether a person is "best" for the position of leader is immaterial. All that matters is whether the person is the leader. He who leads is he who receives the deference of he who follows.

Invariably, fear and loyalty are intertwined. Without loyalty, fear has no power, and without fear, loyalty has no strength.

_____________________________

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 57

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 12:58:01 PM

Aynne88

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I work in the business of home building, I deal on a daily basis with engineers, architects, developers and generally other men that are dominant by natire. I can sense their dominance, their comfort with being "large and in charge", however being a dominant woman by nature in the work force that is, I never felt an instant of wanting to defer or submit to them. If anything, those types of men bring out my competitivie and aggressive nature, and makes me want to appear even more strong and competent around them. When I met my Sir, I wanted to, needed to and craved to submit. So I don't think that there is really such a thing as "due deference". Respect certainly, and a certain protocol to follow in the business world, but even with the few other "dominants" I interacted with before meeting Master, I always felt like I was playing a role. A self imposed title is merely that, and unless it clicks with you, they deserve no more deference than any other person that you meet, a modicum of respect and cordialness unless they show not to be worthy of it.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 58

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 7:13:27 PM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

Whether a person is "best" for the position of leader is immaterial. All that matters is whether the person is the leader. He who leads is he who receives the deference of he who follows.

Why is it immaterial? I would think the quality of leadership impacts several aspects, one being the willingness of the followers to continue to follow.
And the leader’s decisions may be deferred to, but not respected. (another antonym of the word deference.)

quote:

Invariably, fear and loyalty are intertwined. Without loyalty, fear has no power, and without fear, loyalty has no strength.

This idea is very unclear to me. I don’t understand how fear and loyalty are necessarily linked. Would you care to expand?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 59

RE: Due Deference? - 11/1/2008 7:23:38 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Whether a person is "best" for the position of leader is immaterial. All that matters is whether the person is the leader. He who leads is he who receives the deference of he who follows.

Why is it immaterial? I would think the quality of leadership impacts several aspects, one being the willingness of the followers to continue to follow.
And the leader’s decisions may be deferred to, but not respected. (another antonym of the word deference.)

It's immaterial because the reality precludes the question. If a person is in charge, that person is in charge regardless of whether he or she is "best" suited to be in charge. Similarly, if one accepts that a person is the leader, the question of whether that person is "best" is automatically rendered moot.

quote:

quote:

Invariably, fear and loyalty are intertwined. Without loyalty, fear has no power, and without fear, loyalty has no strength.

This idea is very unclear to me. I don’t understand how fear and loyalty are necessarily linked. Would you care to expand?

Why do you obey even when the command is not something you enjoy?

_____________________________

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 60

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