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RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 7:50:27 AM

RealityLicks

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Indeed. But very few countries have no taxation and all taxation is a de facto redistribution of wealth. You can't automatically equate taxation with Marxism, since taxation predates Marx's birth by centuries. I was told that the US taught civics at school, is that not the case?

(in reply to twistedreality)

Post #: 21

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 7:53:34 AM

cjan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality

The redistribution of wealth is straight from Marx!

The phrase may be. That's why McCain and others use it in order to scare the uninformed, kneejerk , stuck in the paranoia of the cold war..Same old fearmongering and divisive tactics.

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Post #: 22

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 7:56:26 AM

Musicmystery

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Because we can't trust them?

Oh, sorry....that was supposed to be Obama. I forgot.

Geez.

(in reply to cjan)

Post #: 23

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:00:17 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality

The redistribution of wealth is straight from Marx!

The phrase may be. That's why McCain and others use it in order to scare the uninformed, kneejerk , stuck in the paranoia of the cold war..Same old fearmongering and divisive tactics.

Standard political rhetoric is that when you have nothing to offer that people want you start trying to scare them into voting for you. It's so sad that so many people are so easily manipulate by fear and lies but then our culture is almost dependent on fear. Just watch your local news to see how often they "warn" us about things or say things are "dangerous". It's easy to go with the fear flow; it is much harder to think about things beyond the talking-points, fear mongering and stereotypes.

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RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:01:02 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality

The redistribution of wealth is straight from Marx!

The phrase may be. That's why McCain and others use it in order to scare the uninformed, kneejerk , stuck in the paranoia of the cold war..Same old fearmongering and divisive tactics.

Why the fear of words? Taking money, via taxation or any other means from one party with the purpose of giving it to another party 'redistributes' that money. Collectively that is a reference to socialism, or at minimum socio-economic redistribution.

If you support that - why argue semantics? Embrace your socialistic desires!

As you say - the cold war is over. If the definition of socialism applies and you support the effort and seek the goal - you should be wearing a banner not trying to hide from it. Is the fear that if Obama were to declare clearly that socialism is indeed the pragmatic result of his policies he'd lose? Indeed that may be the case since not labeling it as such, even though it has the same result, seems to be working for him.

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Post #: 25

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:04:02 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Why the fear of words? Taking money, via taxation or any other means from one party with the purpose of giving it to another party 'redistributes' that money. Collectively that is a reference to socialism, or at minimum socio-economic redistribution.

And as such, the U.S. has been "socialist" for over two centuries, and all candidates for office are Socialist.

You'd think we have some real problems to debate in this country.

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Post #: 26

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:06:41 AM

OrionTheWolf

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From various forums I have been reading, it seems that many Americans want a more socilistic society, where the government provides more for those that cannot provide for themselves. If this is what the majority of Americans want, then that is why we have elections. I believe that a loose interpretation of the word socialist applies to Obama, but looking at it from a universal meaning of the word, it does not apply. Does he have more socialistic views, as opposed to conservative views? Yes, but not to the extreme of Marxism or Communism.

In my opinion a well ran government will have a mixture of socialistic approaches to some things, and individual responsibility for others.

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RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:08:30 AM

kittinSol

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Orion, your last couple of posts have been stellar - dispassionate, informed and spot on. Thank you.

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RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:16:39 AM

twistedreality

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Respectfully, I reply:
Yes, I guess i a broad sense, taxes can be construed as redistribution. But the purpose of taxation, in this country, was originally to provide for infrastructure and security. Therefore, taxation has become a redistribution due to social modifications of the tax system.

Yes the republicans are harping on social "redistribution" because that is what Obama has said and represents. If you do not believe that, then you need to research further and quit listening to the media.

Here it is, straight from the horses mouth and in context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

If your position doesnt change somewhat, then you are in denial. Don't get me wrong, I am not a McCain fan either! But, I am even less a person who is blind enough to believe any redistribution of wealth, perpetrated by the government, will ever trickle down to the common people. I redistribute my wealth at a very significant percentage of my less than 100k income and I do it efficiently.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 29

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:22:56 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality

Respectfully, I reply:
Yes, I guess i a broad sense, taxes can be construed as redistribution. But the purpose of taxation, in this country, was originally to provide for infrastructure and security. Therefore, taxation has become a redistribution due to social modifications of the tax system.

Taxes for infrastructure or security are inherently redistributive of wealth. For example taking money from everybody to give to a concrete manufacturer or weapon manufacturer.

(in reply to twistedreality)

Post #: 30

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 8:36:31 AM

SuzanneKneeling

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LOL. This desperate "socialist" nonsense from McCain (the man who btw wants government to step in and buy up people's bad mortgages, and who owes his entire life to being on the government's "tit") is just sad and pathetic from someone I used to halfway respect.

Obama's trying too hard to "stay positive" and unprovoked. If I were he I would simply light into the old clown and say, "If John McCain thinks I'm a socialist, I shudder to think what he would call Dwight Eisenhower, Ricard Nixon or Ronald Reagan. The top tax rate was higher than 39% under all three of those 'Marxist' presidents. And the rich will be paying no more than they did under Clinton, when the economy was booming."

We have had some wealth redistribution ever since we instituted a progressive taxation system. These things exist on a continuum, and Obama is less of a socialist than any president since FDR. All this name-calling is simply because McCain has zilch to offer the country. Except for a vague, rash nutcase promise this past weekend to "test our enemies". But I think the country has had quite enough of that kind of adolescent cowboy bravado from the current pretender, who has darn near bankrupted us (and made us less safe) with his "bring 'em on" Iraq disaster.

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Post #: 31

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 9:04:01 AM

cjan

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quote:

the rich will be paying no more than they did under Clinton, when the economy was booming."

Exactly.

The scare tactics of invoking the bugaboo of "socialism" and "redistributiob of wealth" are total nonsense. Don't be such an alarmist scaredy- cat , Merc. I'm sure you did rather well under Clinton. Btw, Clinton once said, cotrasting the economy and balanced budget and surpluses under his administration with W's, "if you want to live like a Republican, vote Democratic".

_____________________________

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(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)

Post #: 32

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 9:11:18 AM

Musicmystery

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~FR~

Folks are using "socialist" as if it's some danger we're about to fall into, ending capitalism, under the apparent belief that simply leaving everything to the markets will create prosperity, and that any other movement of money undermines that perfect system.

This is not realistic.

Under a perfect capitalism, you could simply show up and take my produced (or purchased) goods. Perhaps I can afford my own police/army, but that certainly takes away from production, and if I can't afford it, depresses small business.

So we agree to have a police/army/justice system---but where does that money come from? We could fund those police/army/justices privately, but then they'd be literally bought and paid for, working for the wealthy that hired them.

If this is socialism, then the U.S. has been socialist for over two centuries, and all the candidates are socialist.

And if that's your view of capitalism, then only the wealthy have a shot. Such arguments oppose socialism with civilization, not capitalism.

Igg, Ogg, and the Creation of Taxes

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)

Post #: 33

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 9:34:14 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Don't be such an alarmist scaredy- cat , Merc.

Didn't mean to alarm or scare you c. I'm a devout pragmatist - my decisions are based upon pragmatic results from all that impacts me. Making money under Clinton, Bush, or Obama; is also pragmatic. Ironically, I don't think that anything he proposes will impact me as much as it will impact anyone who wants to advance from their current situation. All his programs are anti-success. If, pragmatically, it's best for me to stay on the sidelines for the next four years - I can handle that and it doesn't scar me at all.

However, if I were wanting or needing to expand, or just got out of college, or wanted to start my own business - I'd be scared as hell.

(in reply to cjan)

Post #: 34

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 9:43:25 AM

DarkSteven

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McCain is trying to throw stuff against Obama in hopes something will stick.

What McCain is TRYING to say is that Obama is a Marxist. Marx stated "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." But evidently the word Marxist is too esoteric for McCain to use.

Note that Obama's plan puts money in people's hands that will spend it. It's like a stimulus except that the stimulus, in typical Bush fashion, spends money now and defers how it's paid for. If you wanna create a huge deficit, that's the way to go. I consider any reverting to a pay-as-you-go policy to be more fiscally responsible.

What Obama SHOULD reply is, "Well, gee, Socialism is when the state takes over the means of production. If McCain was so all-fired terrified of socialism, then why did he vote for the bailout bill authorizing government partial ownership of the banking system? Does he have any clue what he's voting for?"

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Post #: 35

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 9:50:09 AM

subenigmatic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

*smooch*

I miss my Dad.. he and I would have chats about politics, and he could (and DID) argue all sides.. he always helped me clarify my thoughts on the issues at hand.. *sigh*

I'm envious, I wish my Dad had done that for me, I could use some clarification on things. The only thing my Dad did for me in terms of politics is send me a text message while I was waiting in line to vote, telling me to vote conservative *sigh*

Of course I promptly replied there is no compaigning allowed within 200 ft of polling places

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Post #: 36

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 9:53:35 AM

cjan

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Joined: 2/21/2008
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Nevermind.

< Message edited by cjan -- 10/31/2008 10:05:11 AM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 37

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 10:01:23 AM

mrbob726

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/15/2007
From: Illinois
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If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are good it's a duck. And Mr Obama might not be a socialist, but his far left policies including his redistribution of the wealth agenda sure make him look like one, and not in a good way. All of us believe that we should take care of those among us that CANNOT take care of themselves, but Obama wants the government to be involved with all we do. Please - I'd rather do it myself!

edited for spelling

< Message edited by mrbob726 -- 10/31/2008 10:04:21 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 10:53:54 AM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Don't be such an alarmist scaredy- cat , Merc.

Didn't mean to alarm or scare you c.

Not to worry, Merc. I only find you scary when you are in drag.

http://s410.photobucket.com/albums/pp181/wyldspics/?action=view&current=2008_1021Steelbination20080032.flv

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 39

RE: Now He's Not A Socialist... - 10/31/2008 11:02:04 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Don't be such an alarmist scaredy- cat , Merc.

Didn't mean to alarm or scare you c.

Not to worry, Merc. I only find you scary when you are in drag.

http://s410.photobucket.com/albums/pp181/wyldspics/?action=view&current=2008_1021Steelbination20080032.flv

Dude (hoping you'll appreciate that is a term of endearment coming from a LA 'native'!)- that IS F...ing SCARY!

THANKS for helping keep the focus light on Halloween Friday!

Happy Trick or Treating - my friend!

(in reply to cjan)

Post #: 40

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